Author Topic: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter  (Read 13259 times)

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BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« on: October 24, 2011, 09:52:19 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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Great, great listen. Couldn't recommend it enough

Thought Billy Hunter came off great. Really laid out his argument well.

Just off the top of my head the most interesting parts were:

1. Billy Hunter saying that some of the GM's didn't have the "Intellectual Capital" to run a winning team. Which I thought was a pretty clever dig at Simmons while making a point.

2. Marc Cuban proposed a 'Game Changer' plan which would eliminate the salary cap completely, and I believe he implied would increase a luxury tax threshold.

3. Hunter's recount of that last meeting really backs up a lot of the reports about the owners being stubborn, and sending in Paul Allen b/c they had become concerned about giving up too much. Hunter really paints a picture of a group that was acting completely unreasonable.

Interested what other people thought, because like I said I thought it was a GREAT podcast.

Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2011, 10:13:34 PM »

Offline Jeff

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thanks for the rundown, I'll download it as soon as it is available on iTunes
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark

"Know what I pray for? The strength to change what I can, the inability to accept what I can't, and the incapacity to tell the difference." - Calvin (Bill Watterson)

Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2011, 10:22:59 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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Anybody else listen to it?

Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2011, 10:35:56 AM »

Offline greenpride32

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Hunter doens't make any "arguments" in my opinion.  He just keep saying we're going to hold the line, we aren't going to give in, we are don't think it's a fair deal.  Those are not arguments.  There's no reasoning behind what the players want. The owners have two primary arguments; they are losing money and want a larger piece of BRI.  The small market teams cannot compete and want a cap to mimic the NFL and NHL where any team can win.  Those are actual arguements.

The reason why the players don't have an argument is because the only thing they care about is getting the most money possible.  Of course they can't say that publicly. 

Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2011, 10:39:12 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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Quote
The reason why the players don't have an argument is because the only thing they care about is getting the most money possible.  Of course they can't say that publicly.

Don't be fooled into thinking the owners want anything different.

This competitive balance thing is a joke. They're in it for the money as well.

Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2011, 10:43:17 AM »

Online Roy H.

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This competitive balance thing is a joke. They're in it for the money as well.

I'm not sure I agree.  I think those who own small-market teams do covet the idea of competitive balance, which I think has led to some hard-line owners.

Obviously, the Lakers and the Knicks couldn't care less about competitive balance; they want to be able to spend.  However, I'd say there are a lot of owners who crave a more level playing field.

If this was *just* about money, I think we'd have an agreement by now, because I think the players would have caved to 50/50 in return for "system issues" staying the same.  However, I think a large contingent of the owners wants to make real changes in the way the business is run, to guarantee more opportunities for the small franchises.


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Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2011, 10:44:53 AM »

Offline greenpride32

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Don't be fooled into thinking the owners want anything different.

This competitive balance thing is a joke. They're in it for the money as well.

Not true; they want both.  Teams like SAC CLE MIN are worthless if they can't build a fan base.  Teams like OKC and MEM are doing well now because they are new and the teams are competitive.  Wait until they are cellar dwellers, let's see how many people show up to the arena then.  Even a team like SA lost money the last two years.  They are a team in smaller market that is still a playoff team but on the decline.  What happens when Timmy and Manu retire?  Do you think they have any chance of profitability?  A business that can only lose money is worthless.

Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2011, 10:52:12 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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This is a pretty good read out of Zach Lowe about "competitive balance"

http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/10/20/no-easy-answer-to-competitive-balance-issue/

I understand the problems of the small-mid market teams, but I think that's something that has more to do with "system issues" amongst the owners.

Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2011, 10:52:35 AM »

Offline greenpride32

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Don't be fooled into thinking the owners want anything different.

This competitive balance thing is a joke. They're in it for the money as well.

BTW so you are basically agreeing with me that the players are the greedy ones if they're holding out for the money?  I at least have sympathy for owners who are losing money in this case.  When the top 1% in America makes $400,000/year and the average NBA salary is over 12 times that, I don't have any sympathy for the players.

Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2011, 10:54:00 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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Don't be fooled into thinking the owners want anything different.

This competitive balance thing is a joke. They're in it for the money as well.

BTW so you are basically agreeing with me that the players are the greedy ones if they're holding out for the money?  I at least have sympathy for owners who are losing money in this case.  When the top 1% in America makes $400,000/year and the average NBA salary is over 12 times that, I don't have any sympathy for the players.

This is a labor dispute. It's 100% about money.

Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2011, 10:57:48 AM »

Offline quidinqui33

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To say that players want the most money possible, and to imply that the owners do not, is completely wrong.  Both sides want the most money possible, its the way the business world works.

The fact of the matter is that the players are being asked to give up money so the owners can get more money.  And I agree with a previous poster.  All this talk of competitive balance is not as important to the owners as making "a few bucks" to quote peter holt.  If competetive balance helps them make more money, then they will push for it.  

The more I listen to interview and pressers from both sides, the more I see myself siding with the players.  As an outsider, you can sometimes easily tell when people are being honest and when people are spinning things.  Hunter may be a little rough around the edges, but I believe what he is saying.  Silver/Stern (and I love stern as a commish) are sending out mixed signals.  How can you on one hand say that the system and the split on BRI are two seperate issues but then on the other hand refuse to table one of the issues in order to negotiate the other.  Doesn't that mean the issues are connected in the owners minds?

People keep saying the players are being greedy.  Look the players are being asked to reduce money, contract length, bird rights, etc. all of which were agreed to during the last CBA.  The players do not dispute that a change needs to be made and have agreed to less BRI, changing the cap, shorter contracts, smaller midlevel, etc.  Nevermind that during the last two CBAs, the players also agreed to rookie wage scales, max contract caps, and age restrictions to enter the league.  At some point the players do have to push back and say "OK owners, now you have to try and run responsible franchises and can't get all of the money off of our backs."

Owning a sports franchise is not a normal business.  It is a sport and a gamble and owners know that going in.  You buy a team in a larger market, your chance of success is higher but so is the price tag to get the team in the first place.  If you have success on the court, you will do well, but that is on the owners and their GMs to make smart moves and get a little lucky.  That is not to say that they system does need some tweaking to help them out, but I think the players have recognized this and done enough (I do think they player need to accept shorter contract, which I think they will in the end if they have not already).

The owners, who are a bunch of tech billionaires that liked watching hoops when they were younger but don't really know how to run these teams, are the ones that are holding this thing up.

I'm a Redskins fan.  Trust me, a bad owner can make even one of the most succesful and high earning franchises bad, year after year...regarless of how good the system is.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 11:22:02 AM by quidinqui33 »

Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2011, 11:00:39 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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Don't be fooled into thinking the owners want anything different.

This competitive balance thing is a joke. They're in it for the money as well.

BTW so you are basically agreeing with me that the players are the greedy ones if they're holding out for the money?  I at least have sympathy for owners who are losing money in this case.  When the top 1% in America makes $400,000/year and the average NBA salary is over 12 times that, I don't have any sympathy for the players.

Throughout the duration of the lockout I've sided slightly with the owners, but they have to take some accountability.

Above you pointed out the success of OKC as if it's a fluke, where that's just not the case. The Owner has done a great job gaining local support, and their GM - with the help of some luck - has done a great job assembling a cast and not spending more than the team can bring in. They've wisely invested their money.

That's the problem with a lot of these teams. Look at the Milwaukee Bucks, who recently signed Cory Maggette and John Salmons to longer contracts. Those players aren't selling jersey, they're not putting people in their seats, IF the team continues to win than it's a wise investment, but that's a huge 17 million dollar gamble.

Obviously, that's not an isolated case. If you're running a business you shouldn't be spending more money than you're guaranteed to bring in. That's business 101. And these billionaires are guilty of committing that crime over and over and over.

Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2011, 11:19:39 AM »

Offline Moranis

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This competitive balance thing is a joke. They're in it for the money as well.

I'm not sure I agree.  I think those who own small-market teams do covet the idea of competitive balance, which I think has led to some hard-line owners.

Obviously, the Lakers and the Knicks couldn't care less about competitive balance; they want to be able to spend.  However, I'd say there are a lot of owners who crave a more level playing field.

If this was *just* about money, I think we'd have an agreement by now, because I think the players would have caved to 50/50 in return for "system issues" staying the same.  However, I think a large contingent of the owners wants to make real changes in the way the business is run, to guarantee more opportunities for the small franchises.
The NFL has had 7 different champions in the past 10 seasons.  MLB has had 9 in the past 10 seasons (it will stay at 9 if Texas wins or go to 8 if St. Louis wins).  The NHL has had 9 different champions in the past 10 seasons. 

In the past 10 seasons the NHL has had 1 team make 3 Finals (Detroit) and just 3 others makes 2 (Pittsburgh, Carolina, New Jersey) for a total of 14 teams making the Finals.  The MLB has had 14 different teams make the World Series in the past 10 seasons, not counting this year (Yankees 3, Boston 2, Philly 2, San Fran 2).  If you include this year, then no team has reached 3 World Series in the last 10 seasons (and Texas and St. Louis join the 2 team list).  The NFL has had 14 teams make the Superbowl in the past 10 seasons.

The league supposedly built on parity is the least diverse of the other 3 major leagues in the U.S. when it comes to champions and has had the same amount of different teams make the final game/series (and the NFL has more teams so the percentage is actually less).  And when you only play 1 game it much easier to have upsets then when you play 7 game series like the other sports.  Heck baseball has almost no one make the playoffs in comparison to the other leagues and it is arguably the most diverse of all the sports. 


Basketball is not a sport that breeds parity.  It doesn't happen because quite frankly all a team needs is One Gold Medal Superstar and it will become a contender.  Look at Cleveland.  A downright terrible franchise, drafts Lebron, and for five years was a championship contender with essentially Lebron and a bunch of crap.  Lebron didn't leave Cleveland because of money, he left because Cleveland was a terribly run franchise that couldn't draw any other good players there even with Lebron.  I mean Cleveland and Toronto worked out a sign and trade for Bosh, but Bosh refused to go there.  No system in the world will change that. 
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Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2011, 11:31:20 AM »

Offline cman88

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for anyone mentioning OKC, its worth noting that most of their players are still on their rookie deals so right now it looks like they are being smart with their $$...but wait until those deals expire, they will have to pay/overpay ALOT of those guys to keep them....same with Memphis Grizzlies.

to me, I think the players are being very stubborn...looking from the outside, the owners realize the system is broken and want to rebuild it to something more conducive...while the players just want to stay with the status quo system and dont want to acknowledge that the system needs to change

the economy is in a very different place than it was during the last lockout...salaries are down, people arent spending as much...if we, the 99% have to be paid less, why shouldnt NBA players who make multi-millions take a paycut?

Re: BS Report W/ Billy Hunter
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2011, 11:42:30 AM »

Offline quidinqui33

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Cman88, how can you say the players want status quo?  They have already come down on several issues?