Author Topic: Rondo for Steve Nash  (Read 25321 times)

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Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2011, 10:54:57 PM »

Offline soap07

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 I didn't say every single stat goes up when you play with worse players. I'd say that from watching them play that Nash does dominate the ball more than Nash. You could also notice that Nash has the highest usage rate for the top 6 Suns in terms of minutes played this year while Rondo has the lowest usage rate for the top 6 for the Celts.

Are you implying that Steve Nash is a stat padder? He has consistently inflated the stats of good players as well (Amare Stoudemire, Marion, Boris Diaw). This isn't Mike James putting up numbers on a bad team because he's getting the ball more. He's a great point guard and certainly better than Rondo.

And leading the league in assists with that roster around him is impressive. He did not play with a single other All Star. Was there one player on that team that drew a double other than Nash?

Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2011, 11:03:02 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Is defense still a full half of the game of basketball?  Nash is a completely pathetic defender....worse then Rondo is as a perimeter shooter.

Defense is a full half of the game of basketball. But Steve Nash's individual defense in a system is not. Whereas on the offensive end, Nash's dominance is a much bigger part of the game. Nash is a poor defender, no doubt, but in this defensive system, you can mask some of that while reaping the benefits of a much more impactful part of this game.

  In this defensive system you'll have Nash and Ray back on transition defense instead of Rondo and Ray, and Nash and Ray don't have the athleticism to slow people down in the open court. Steve won't be able to replicate Rondo's perimeter defense, his ball denial skills or his ability to use pressure defense to keep the opposing offense from getting set up early in the shot clock. Between rebounding and steals Rondo gets the Celts about 4 more possessions per playoff game than Nash, which comes in handy. And for all your claims of offensive dominance Nash has a slightly bigger impact on an offense than Rondo.

Let me be clear: I don't think this is a trade that I would make. I just don't see how Nash can keep up his production for too much longer and it's not worth giving up a very good young player for what would be a rental player presumably. But as of right now - last year, the last five years, Nash has been the better player.

  Of course he isn't a better player, especially if you consider his all around play. Defense and rebounding count too.

Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2011, 11:13:22 PM »

Offline BballTim

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 I didn't say every single stat goes up when you play with worse players. I'd say that from watching them play that Nash does dominate the ball more than Nash. You could also notice that Nash has the highest usage rate for the top 6 Suns in terms of minutes played this year while Rondo has the lowest usage rate for the top 6 for the Celts.

Are you implying that Steve Nash is a stat padder? He has consistently inflated the stats of good players as well (Amare Stoudemire, Marion, Boris Diaw). This isn't Mike James putting up numbers on a bad team because he's getting the ball more. He's a great point guard and certainly better than Rondo.

  I didn't say Nash was a stat padder at any point in time. You keep claiming that it's impressive that he had better individual numbers than Rondo with worse teammates, I was explaining that his numbers were good because he played with worse teammates.

Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2011, 11:25:56 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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I'm not married to Rondo by any stretch. The conflation of his skills on this board always makes me chuckle, second only to the Paul Bunyan-esque rhapsodizing here about Kendrick Perkins. The Celtics' best player? With no jump shot? With atrocious foul shooting? Please.

But trading him for Nash is not something I would give a second of thought to. Absolutely no way I make a move for a fossilized PG.
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Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2011, 11:29:16 PM »

Offline mustang

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This is a bad idea, but not because one guy or another is better or worse, or older or younger, or whatever.  Nash and Rondo both need ath-e-letes (to quote Barkley) to do their thing - Rondo gets bored in the regular season because his teammates and the system he runs bore him. Sometimes he'd get inspired (notably with Shaq, when there was another creative thinker on the floor with him), but less often than you'd think.  Oftentimes it must feel like he's playing in the YMCA with three orthodontists and a tax lawyer, or pickup ball with his dad's friends.

Playing with cagey veterans is very useful for a young talent for a time, but now that he's a little more seasoned, I'd guess that with his imagination and creativity, it's getting a little stifling to walk the ball up all the time and wait for Ray to run around some screens or Paul to set up in isolation.  And it's not just an age thing, it's an attitude - I love Pierce, but he's always had a deliberate, deliberate game. Remember those Paul and Antoine teams trying to run the fast break?  It was comically ugly, the basketball equivalent of bacne.  Cousy and Heinsohn muttering to themselves on the telecast as those guys barrelled down the court, bunched together like little kids on a soccer field, was hilarious.

Anyway, Nash as a shooter would help, Nash as a defender would hurt, and Nash as a facilitator would be just as stifled as Rondo is.  Nash would do his best work on teams like NYC or Atlanta or Miami or the Clippers, where he could organize chaos.  Not in Boston.

If the Celtics are going to trade Rondo to run the same system with the same players (which they won't do, realistically), we'd do well to trade for tough-minded ball pounders like CP3 or Deron Williams.  Not Nash.

Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2011, 12:30:44 AM »

Offline soap07

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  Of course he isn't a better player, especially if you consider his all around play. Defense and rebounding count too.

And I do consider the overall game. Rebounding for a point guard is pretty irrelevant to me in this case. Rondo's career rebounding per game is 4.4, Nash is 3.0. The extra 1.4 rebounds a game is just not that big a deal for me for a point guard.

Not when one point guard is one of the best shooters AND passers in the league. When one point guard's sabtremetric numbers consistently outshines the other.

Rondo plays good defense - great when he wants to, poor when he's not putting in the effort. Nash, FWIW, is always putting in the effort defensively. My guess is that in a good defensive system like the C's, he wouldn't be all that bad, probably similar to Ray.

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You keep claiming that it's impressive that he had better individual numbers than Rondo with worse teammates, I was explaining that his numbers were good because he played with worse teammates.

I just don't understand this at all. How does this make sense?

Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2011, 02:03:00 AM »

Offline Bahku

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Never. Steve Nash is one of the greats, but his career and athleticism has almost run out, and this would be a very bad move at this point. Danny's trying to build a team that can run, and Nash is the complete opposite of that kind of PG.
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Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2011, 06:28:06 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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 I didn't say every single stat goes up when you play with worse players. I'd say that from watching them play that Nash does dominate the ball more than Nash. You could also notice that Nash has the highest usage rate for the top 6 Suns in terms of minutes played this year while Rondo has the lowest usage rate for the top 6 for the Celts.

Are you implying that Steve Nash is a stat padder? He has consistently inflated the stats of good players as well (Amare Stoudemire, Marion, Boris Diaw). This isn't Mike James putting up numbers on a bad team because he's getting the ball more. He's a great point guard and certainly better than Rondo.

  I didn't say Nash was a stat padder at any point in time. You keep claiming that it's impressive that he had better individual numbers than Rondo with worse teammates, I was explaining that his numbers were good because he played with worse teammates.

This is just not true in any way. The "good stats bad teammates" is a myth that gets uses to argue against players soemone doesn't like, just as the "he put up good stats because he's on a good team" (an argument that many use against Rondo unfairly, or used, ironically, for many of Nash's teammates in the '05 era) is equally flawed, unproven, and unreplicable.

Nash put up great stats because he's still a great player. That's it. In fact, his numbers were slightly BETTER a couple sesons ago when he still had MORE good teammates. And not the assists...those are the same...he scored more when he was on a title contending team. So it is totally wrong to say that Nash got his stats because of his bad teammates.

Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2011, 06:58:27 AM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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Is defense still a full half of the game of basketball?  Nash is a completely pathetic defender....worse then Rondo is as a perimeter shooter.

Defense is a full half of the game of basketball. But Steve Nash's individual defense in a system is not. Whereas on the offensive end, Nash's dominance is a much bigger part of the game. Nash is a poor defender, no doubt, but in this defensive system, you can mask some of that while reaping the benefits of a much more impactful part of this game.

  The Celtic's defense in 2007-08 might have been good enough to cover up for Nash's ineptness but in 2011 it isn't because our veterans are a step slower then they were then and Nash is a whole lot worse on defense then he was then. KG isn't the help defender he was in 2007-08.  Ray and Nash in the back court would get completely torched by most teams.

  One good thing that would come out of it would be KG's minutes would decrease because he'd be in foul trouble every night but that is not exactly how you want to control his minutes.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 07:12:37 AM by CelticsFanNC »

Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2011, 08:43:52 AM »

Offline BballTim

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 I didn't say every single stat goes up when you play with worse players. I'd say that from watching them play that Nash does dominate the ball more than Nash. You could also notice that Nash has the highest usage rate for the top 6 Suns in terms of minutes played this year while Rondo has the lowest usage rate for the top 6 for the Celts.

Are you implying that Steve Nash is a stat padder? He has consistently inflated the stats of good players as well (Amare Stoudemire, Marion, Boris Diaw). This isn't Mike James putting up numbers on a bad team because he's getting the ball more. He's a great point guard and certainly better than Rondo.

  I didn't say Nash was a stat padder at any point in time. You keep claiming that it's impressive that he had better individual numbers than Rondo with worse teammates, I was explaining that his numbers were good because he played with worse teammates.

This is just not true in any way. The "good stats bad teammates" is a myth that gets uses to argue against players soemone doesn't like, just as the "he put up good stats because he's on a good team" (an argument that many use against Rondo unfairly, or used, ironically, for many of Nash's teammates in the '05 era) is equally flawed, unproven, and unreplicable.


  Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense. Look at the big three's stats before and after they joined forces. Look at the stats of the Miami guys, Kobe and Pau, AI and Melo or other situations where players that are the focal points of offenses are put with more talented players. Their stats almost always take a hit.

Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2011, 08:54:56 AM »

Offline BballTim

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 Of course he isn't a better player, especially if you consider his all around play. Defense and rebounding count too.

And I do consider the overall game. Rebounding for a point guard is pretty irrelevant to me in this case. Rondo's career rebounding per game is 4.4, Nash is 3.0. The extra 1.4 rebounds a game is just not that big a deal for me for a point guard.

Not when one point guard is one of the best shooters AND passers in the league. When one point guard's sabtremetric numbers consistently outshines the other.

Rondo plays good defense - great when he wants to, poor when he's not putting in the effort. Nash, FWIW, is always putting in the effort defensively. My guess is that in a good defensive system like the C's, he wouldn't be all that bad, probably similar to Ray.


  Rondo's rebounding average is probably 2.5 or so higher than Nash's in the playoffs, which is IMO more important than the regular season. The Celts defense is based in a large part on things that Rondo can do that Nash can't. He's a much better transition defender, he's much better at pressuring the ball, denying the ball, knocking the ball loose when other players get to close to him and perimeter defense. Two Ray Allen level defenders (Nash isn't really even that good) won't work. Rondo's the best defensive pg in the league, Nash is below average. The difference on defense is greater than any difference on offense.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 09:23:22 AM by BballTim »

Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2011, 09:47:42 AM »

Online Vermont Green

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For the next season or two, the Celtics would be better with Nash.  I know it seems like a long time ago but we lost in the playoffs because we could not score, primarily in the 4th qtr of games.  Nash would fix that.  Not only would he hit big shots of his own but he would draw double teams off screen/roles and everything would be easier for everyone.  And I think our defense would be fine.  Miami plays good defense with Bibby, we would be able to defend with Nash.

The problem is that Nash, along with KG, RA, and to some degree PP, are all going to be completely done after those two years.  It would be an all in play for a pretty good change at another title.  I would want something more than just Nash back for Rondo but I would explore this.

Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2011, 09:55:47 AM »

Offline BballTim

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For the next season or two, the Celtics would be better with Nash.  I know it seems like a long time ago but we lost in the playoffs because we could not score, primarily in the 4th qtr of games.  Nash would fix that.  Not only would he hit big shots of his own but he would draw double teams off screen/roles and everything would be easier for everyone.  And I think our defense would be fine.  Miami plays good defense with Bibby, we would be able to defend with Nash.

  Nash doesn't really command a double team on offense. I don't know how much easier he'll actually make things on offense. His defender will stay closer to him when he's dribbling on the outside and somewhat closer when he doesn't have the ball but teams wouldn't have to guard the lane much because he's not a threat to get to the hoop. So he'd help teams that want an open lane to get to the rim more than he'd help teams that are perimeter based.

  You're right about his defense though. If the Celts had wings as athletic as Wade and James then we could mask his deficiencies. Unfortunately that's not the case. The Celts depend on things that Rondo can do but Nash can't.

Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2011, 10:01:37 AM »

Offline timepiece33

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Nash for Rondo is  good idea.

If you a Suns fan.

Re: Rondo for Steve Nash
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2011, 10:04:30 AM »

Offline soap07

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 Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense. Look at the big three's stats before and after they joined forces. Look at the stats of the Miami guys, Kobe and Pau, AI and Melo or other situations where players that are the focal points of offenses are put with more talented players. Their stats almost always take a hit.

Of course their numbers will take a hit - they have to share the scoring load. How's that applicable to Nash? It's not like he'd be playing with another point guard that he'd have to share assists with. I guess his 14 points a game might go down? But he doesn't shoot much anyways.


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Danny's trying to build a team that can run, and Nash is the complete opposite of that kind of PG.

I disagree with this. Last year, Phoenix, again with a garbage team without the right pieces, was 8th in pace. Nash just had one of the best years of his career and he is at his best in an uptempo system.