Trade Idea: Rondo for Rubio, #2, and filler

[KungPoweChicken]

  I'd rather try and win a title. We're killing our chances next year to obtain two young players, neither of which are projected to be franchise players. Will either of them see an all-star game before PP retires?

The problem is I don't think the Celtics have any title chances next year. Unless CP3 falls into their lap.

I think the Celtics can be the 3rd or 4th best team in the NBA next year. To me, that means there is a decent chance at winning a title if the Big 4 can stay on the floor like they did this past season.  Obviously, Rondo's freak injury hurt their chances, but injuries to Marquis and their bigs for most of the season didn't help matters either.

Can anyone say with any certainty that Wade won't sustain an injury next season?  Same question can be applied with Lebron and Bosh, only to a lesser extent. Something like that would practically put the Celtics back in the drivers seat as the team to beat in the Eastern Conference (providing they aren't dealing with their own injuries).  Without any injuries, the Heat will no doubt be tough to beat next season.

For that reason, you have to keep the team together and give it another go. No big trades, but somehow, someway, they need to get a little help.

This is something I don't understand (and I'm not accusing you). But people often say, "If the big Four stay healthy like they did this year," then we'll be a really good team next year. But as soon as posters criticize Rondo's game, they will be quick to say how injured he was this year: ankles, feet, elbow, etc. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Do people really think KG is going to be able to stay healthy and productive next year? Pierce? The truth, as I see it, is that these guys, without adding another perennial all-star are done competing for a title.

  KG and Pierce are both historically healthy players. KG's another year removed from his knee injury. The odds on them being healthy aren't as bad as you're implying. Rondo's going to get a couple more months of rest this summer than last, which will probably help as well. I don't expect a huge dropoff from this year.

Why not make a splash for a couple young players, while retaining the Big Three?

  Why retain the big three? The team will be worse in the short term without Rondo, and it's far from a sure thing either player will ever be as good as Rondo.

Pierce is an iron man, no doubt. Garnett has had his fair share of injuries since he has been a Celtic. The most games he has played here in one season has been 71. If you have Rondo banged up, Garnett banged up time to time, and if one of Pierce or Allen go down, isn't the season just about over?

I just don't think this team can still compete for a title. You're riding on a big "what if" we stay healthy. I'm sick of that.

In this hypothesized trade, you still keep this Big Three. But you are also getting better for the future, so if one of the big three goes down, it's not that big of a deal because you're already looking towards the future with Green, Williams, and Rubio. You'll still have Allen's expiring and the clippers pick, which could net you another solid young player to pair with Rubio, Williams, and Green.


I also don't think having Rubio and potentially Williams of off the bench significantly reduces the team's chance at a title, which I project to be pretty low next year anyway.

With your scenario, who would you suggest Boston starts at PG?  The Big 3 NEED Rondo or someone very similar if they are going to compete at a high level, which I believe they can.  Again, they are going to probably need some help to get by Miami. But, who else in the league is better than the Celtics right now?  I can probably think of 3 or 4 teams in the Celtics' class who are just beneath the Heat, but they have their problems too.

As for riding a big if, you're right? But what other choices do they have other than blowing it all up and trying to find someone to take KG's $20+ million contract? If they're gonna keep Pierce and KG, they will also keep Allen.  If they keep all 3, they might as well make another run with a proven PG.

Hey,

I tried to answer your post, but it got trapped inside another quote (the post above yours).

Anyway, this is what I wrote:

Well it would be Rubio's job, and I think he could do it. I know a lot of posters will call me out for this, but there is nothing that special about what Rondo does. Any competent point guard could get the Big Three (Specifically Allen and Garnett) the shots they want. Rondo sometimes does it with a little flair. But really, Garnett's shots come off of simple offense. Ray's shots come off of a screen or two. There is nothing that complex about running an offense and getting guys shots, especially if you are a pass first point guard, which Rubio is. Now, I'm not saying Rubio is going to come to Boston, light it up, and be better than Rondo at finding guys. But he would definitely be able to do the job. The idea that only Rondo can get these guys shots is, to me, ludicrous.

[BballTim]

People are using the argument, "who is better than the Celtics right now"? The problem is next season will not be right now. Shaq is done. Perk is gone. JO is always hurt. They have no Center. They have no quality depth, except Green and potentially West. They will only most likely fill out the roster with minimum one year deals.

The team going into next season is going to be what you would have seen against Miami, except worse. Because Pierce, Allen, and Garnett will all be older, and key players are not likely to be back.

  I'm guessing they'll sign a center, but under your scenario, why keep any of the big three?

[BballTim]

Well it would be Rubio's job, and I think he could do it. I know a lot of posters will call me out for this, but there is nothing that special about what Rondo does. Any competent point guard could get the Big Three (Specifically Allen and Garnett) the shots they want. Rondo sometimes does it with a little flair. But really, Garnett's shots come off of simple offense. Ray's shots come off of a screen or two. There is nothing that complex about running an offense and getting guys shots, especially if you are a pass first point guard, which Rubio is. Now, I'm not saying Rubio is going to come to Boston, light it up, and be better than Rondo at finding guys. But he would definitely be able to do the job. The idea that only Rondo can get these guys shots is, to me, ludicrous.

  By the same token you thought Delonte would be better than Rondo, when he was less effective against the Heat than Rondo playing with one arn.

[17wasEZ]

  I'd rather try and win a title. We're killing our chances next year to obtain two young players, neither of which are projected to be franchise players. Will either of them see an all-star game before PP retires?

The problem is I don't think the Celtics have any title chances next year. Unless CP3 falls into their lap.

I think the Celtics can be the 3rd or 4th best team in the NBA next year. To me, that means there is a decent chance at winning a title if the Big 4 can stay on the floor like they did this past season.  Obviously, Rondo's freak injury hurt their chances, but injuries to Marquis and their bigs for most of the season didn't help matters either.

Can anyone say with any certainty that Wade won't sustain an injury next season?  Same question can be applied with Lebron and Bosh, only to a lesser extent. Something like that would practically put the Celtics back in the drivers seat as the team to beat in the Eastern Conference (providing they aren't dealing with their own injuries).  Without any injuries, the Heat will no doubt be tough to beat next season.

For that reason, you have to keep the team together and give it another go. No big trades, but somehow, someway, they need to get a little help.

This is something I don't understand (and I'm not accusing you). But people often say, "If the big Four stay healthy like they did this year," then we'll be a really good team next year. But as soon as posters criticize Rondo's game, they will be quick to say how injured he was this year: ankles, feet, elbow, etc. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Do people really think KG is going to be able to stay healthy and productive next year? Pierce? The truth, as I see it, is that these guys, without adding another perennial all-star are done competing for a title.

  KG and Pierce are both historically healthy players. KG's another year removed from his knee injury. The odds on them being healthy aren't as bad as you're implying. Rondo's going to get a couple more months of rest this summer than last, which will probably help as well. I don't expect a huge dropoff from this year.

Why not make a splash for a couple young players, while retaining the Big Three?

  Why retain the big three? The team will be worse in the short term without Rondo, and it's far from a sure thing either player will ever be as good as Rondo.

Pierce is an iron man, no doubt. Garnett has had his fair share of injuries since he has been a Celtic. The most games he has played here in one season has been 71. If you have Rondo banged up, Garnett banged up time to time, and if one of Pierce or Allen go down, isn't the season just about over?

I just don't think this team can still compete for a title. You're riding on a big "what if" we stay healthy. I'm sick of that.

In this hypothesized trade, you still keep this Big Three. But you are also getting better for the future, so if one of the big three goes down, it's not that big of a deal because you're already looking towards the future with Green, Williams, and Rubio. You'll still have Allen's expiring and the clippers pick, which could net you another solid young player to pair with Rubio, Williams, and Green.


I also don't think having Rubio and potentially Williams of off the bench significantly reduces the team's chance at a title, which I project to be pretty low next year anyway.

With your scenario, who would you suggest Boston starts at PG?  The Big 3 NEED Rondo or someone very similar if they are going to compete at a high level, which I believe they can.  Again, they are going to probably need some help to get by Miami. But, who else in the league is better than the Celtics right now?  I can probably think of 3 or 4 teams in the Celtics' class who are just beneath the Heat, but they have their problems too.

As for riding a big if, you're right? But what other choices do they have other than blowing it all up and trying to find someone to take KG's $20+ million contract? If they're gonna keep Pierce and KG, they will also keep Allen.  If they keep all 3, they might as well make another run with a proven PG.

Hey,

I tried to answer your post, but it got trapped inside another quote (the post above yours).

Anyway, this is what I wrote:

Well it would be Rubio's job, and I think he could do it. I know a lot of posters will call me out for this, but there is nothing that special about what Rondo does. Any competent point guard could get the Big Three (Specifically Allen and Garnett) the shots they want. Rondo sometimes does it with a little flair. But really, Garnett's shots come off of simple offense. Ray's shots come off of a screen or two. There is nothing that complex about running an offense and getting guys shots, especially if you are a pass first point guard, which Rubio is. Now, I'm not saying Rubio is going to come to Boston, light it up, and be better than Rondo at finding guys. But he would definitely be able to do the job. The idea that only Rondo can get these guys shots is, to me, ludicrous.

I hear ya, but I don't agree with ya. Rondo is now part of a core group that is known as the Big 4 for a reason. He is a top 5 point guard in the league right now.  Actually, if I was guaranteed that Delonte would stay healthy next season and would re-sign with the Celtics, then your proposed trade would make a little more sense to me.

Since you don't hold Rondo in high regard, then I can see why you would make the trade.

[KungPoweChicken]

People are using the argument, "who is better than the Celtics right now"? The problem is next season will not be right now. Shaq is done. Perk is gone. JO is always hurt. They have no Center. They have no quality depth, except Green and potentially West. They will only most likely fill out the roster with minimum one year deals.

The team going into next season is going to be what you would have seen against Miami, except worse. Because Pierce, Allen, and Garnett will all be older, and key players are not likely to be back.

  I'm guessing they'll sign a center, but under your scenario, why keep any of the big three?

I'd be willing to make the deal, wait until the deadline, and see how they are playing. If they are still playing like a top team in the east (a top 4 seed), then I would keep the Big Three. If they are a fringe playoff team, or if one of the Big Three goes down with a serious injury, I'd explore trading one of them with Bradley or the Clippers pick, especially Allen, who would probably be most attractive to teams. I'm not that interested in trading Pierce, however.



You come to the deadline, maybe you can get an Iguodala for Allen, Bradley, and the Clippers pick. Who knows? Yeah, I'm getting way too far ahead of myself, I know. But I just think if you make the original Rondo trade, you open yourself up for a lot more flexibility, rather than just riding it out with the Big Three, and then hope to bank on free agency, which has never worked for the Celtics.

[mc34]

People are using the argument, "who is better than the Celtics right now"? The problem is next season will not be right now. Shaq is done. Perk is gone. JO is always hurt. They have no Center. They have no quality depth, except Green and potentially West. They will only most likely fill out the roster with minimum one year deals.

The team going into next season is going to be what you would have seen against Miami, except worse. Because Pierce, Allen, and Garnett will all be older, and key players are not likely to be back.

Remember the beginning of the season when we were mowing teams over with Nate Robinson as our starting point guard? The key is rest, the window is still open. Therefore I am opposed to all blockbuster trades, as of right now

[KungPoweChicken]

People are using the argument, "who is better than the Celtics right now"? The problem is next season will not be right now. Shaq is done. Perk is gone. JO is always hurt. They have no Center. They have no quality depth, except Green and potentially West. They will only most likely fill out the roster with minimum one year deals.

The team going into next season is going to be what you would have seen against Miami, except worse. Because Pierce, Allen, and Garnett will all be older, and key players are not likely to be back.

Remember the beginning of the season when we were mowing teams over with Nate Robinson as our starting point guard? The key is rest, the window is still open. Therefore I am opposed to all blockbuster trades, as of right now

They were 7-4 with Robinson starting. They beat the Hawks, Nets, Nets, Hawks, Pacers, 76ers, and Pacers. This isn't exactly "top flight" competition. And both games against the Hawks, they completely didn't show up. I'm not exactly sure if I consider this good evidence that the team will be good next year.

[CelticSince83]

This might be the worst trade idea I have read on here.  Trade our All-Star point guard for a guy who averaged 7 and 4 in the EURO league last year.  Rubio is has zero athleticism, is unproven, can't shoot, can't defend, and will NEVER be the player Rondo is.  Rondo would absolutely destroy Rubio.

I also don't really see the advantage of picking up Derrick Williams.  He plays the same spots on the floor as Jeff Green who Rivers is already confused about how, when and where to play.  Also, I don't see how adding Derrick Williams turns one of the worst benches in the NBA into the best bench in the league.

I'd prefer this organization to be in WIN NOW mode, and if not, be in rebuilding mode, not just make some random trades mode and see what happens.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

If Boston is going to give it one more go with the Big 3, I'm fine with that, but there's a right way to do it. They can't be surrounded by tons of older and/or injury-prone guys; I'm cool with bringing JO and Delonte back, because they can contribute a lot if healthy, but otherwise this team needs to get younger and more athletic; it needs a roster that allows for the Big 3 to rest more. Bringing back the Big 3 makes no sense if the plan is to play them 30+ minutes a game, because they'll just be worn out (again) come playoff time. As painful as it would be to see the Big 3 go, this worst thing to do this coming season is to keep them but not surround them with the right players. I realize that Boston has a lot of limitations due to cap restrictions, but that's the reality, so either blow it up a year early, or stockpile players who'll save wear and tear on the Big 3's legs and give good bench production.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I'd prefer this organization to be in WIN NOW mode, and if not, be in rebuilding mode, not just make some random trades mode and see what happens.

Exactly. TP. The "third option" (not a fully committed "win now" mindset but also not a fully committed rebuilding approach) will net us a decent regular-season record and a first-, maybe second-, round exit in the playoffs.

[17wasEZ]

This might be the worst trade idea I have read on here. 

Lol! You haven't been reading many of the other trade proposals over the last week, have you?

[CelticSince83]

Haha exactly.  You can't keep the Big 3 but also be rebuilding.  Either keep the Big 3 and Rondo and make 1 last run at it, or blow it up and head to the lottery.  But trading Rondo for Rubio probably gives us a .500 ball club and also limits our chances going forward.  I really doubt KLove or D12 is going to want to come to Boston after the Big 3 era when our selling point is come to Boston and wait for Rubio to develop over the next 3-4 years.

[Fan from VT]

As someone previously pointed out (Chris?) it depends on the Filler.

If Minny wanted to shed their longer deals and you could do Rubio, #2 (Williams, I'd hope), Ridnour, and Darko, C's could trot out:

Ridnour (maybe a better fit offensively than rondo, good bridge until (if) rubio is ready)/Rubio/West
Allen/West/Bradley/Wafer
Pierce/Green/Williams
KG/JO/Williams
Darko/JO

Minny would just have:
Rondo/Flynn
Webster/ellington
Beasley/Johnson
Randolph/Tolliver
Love/Pekovic

They'd be a running group, and they'd have locked down a semi-franchise type in a poor free agent destination and still have a lot of financial flexibility.

[ManUp]

Trade our young athletic play-off tested NBA champion allstar 1st team all defense point guard for two rookies?

Am I over valuing Rondo or under estimating Rubio and Williams. 

[KungPoweChicken]

As someone previously pointed out (Chris?) it depends on the Filler.

If Minny wanted to shed their longer deals and you could do Rubio, #2 (Williams, I'd hope), Ridnour, and Darko, C's could trot out:

Ridnour (maybe a better fit offensively than rondo, good bridge until (if) rubio is ready)/Rubio/West
Allen/West/Bradley/Wafer
Pierce/Green/Williams
KG/JO/Williams
Darko/JO

Minny would just have:
Rondo/Flynn
Webster/ellington
Beasley/Johnson
Randolph/Tolliver
Love/Pekovic

They'd be a running group, and they'd have locked down a semi-franchise type in a poor free agent destination and still have a lot of financial flexibility.

I don't think the Celtics could ever get the salaries to match in a deal like that, unfortunately. I think getting Darko alone as the "filler" would be an incredible steal though.


Rubio, Allen, Pierce, Garnett, and Darko, with Green, Williams, and West on the bench is a much superior team than what the Celtics have now.

I just don't see the incentive for Minnesota to strip away most of their team, though.