Author Topic: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect  (Read 16391 times)

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Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2011, 01:13:28 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Apparently I'm in the vast minority on this one, but I still don't think the Knicks are anything special. No, they're not the Twolves, but they're not good, either.
Agreed -- Knicks are a slightly above average team. They pale in comparison to the Celtics who are an excellent squad and a legitimate title contender.

And the team the Knicks had on the floor the other night in the second half but absolutely atrocious. They would struggle to win 20 games. Abysmal.

Well, at least somebody sees it; at least I'm not completely losing my mind. 

Also, Carmelo is a good player, but I don't think he's in the same class as Lebron, Wade, or Kobe.  The talent is there (or a very small step below) but he hasn't fully committed himself to defense.  The defensive talent is probably there, but the commitment, effort, and consistency isn't.

Basically, I see Carmelo as not being that much different that 2006 / 2007 Paul Pierce.


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Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2011, 01:14:56 PM »

Online hpantazo

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Apparently I'm in the vast minority on this one, but I still don't think the Knicks are anything special. No, they're not the Twolves, but they're not good, either.
Agreed -- Knicks are a slightly above average team. They pale in comparison to the Celtics who are an excellent squad and a legitimate title contender.

And the team the Knicks had on the floor the other night in the second half but absolutely atrocious. They would struggle to win 20 games. Abysmal.

Well, at least somebody sees it; at least I'm not completely losing my mind. 

Also, Carmelo is a good player, but I don't think he's in the same class as Lebron, Wade, or Kobe.  The talent is there (or a very small step below) but he hasn't fully committed himself to defense.  The defensive talent is probably there, but the commitment, effort, and consistency isn't.

Basically, I see Carmelo as not being that much different that 2006 / 2007 Paul Pierce.
 

If I were Paul, I would be offended right now

Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2011, 01:29:06 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Apparently I'm in the vast minority on this one, but I still don't think the Knicks are anything special. No, they're not the Twolves, but they're not good, either.
Agreed -- Knicks are a slightly above average team. They pale in comparison to the Celtics who are an excellent squad and a legitimate title contender.

And the team the Knicks had on the floor the other night in the second half but absolutely atrocious. They would struggle to win 20 games. Abysmal.

Well, at least somebody sees it; at least I'm not completely losing my mind. 

Also, Carmelo is a good player, but I don't think he's in the same class as Lebron, Wade, or Kobe.  The talent is there (or a very small step below) but he hasn't fully committed himself to defense.  The defensive talent is probably there, but the commitment, effort, and consistency isn't.

Basically, I see Carmelo as not being that much different that 2006 / 2007 Paul Pierce.
 

If I were Paul, I would be offended right now

Why so?  The two guys aren't that much different.  Prior to 2008, Paul never played much defense, but he carried mediocre to bad teams, hitting some big shots and having some playoff success in the process.  That's Carmelo's career to date.  Great scorers, poor defenders despite having defensive talent, pretty good at everything else.


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Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2011, 01:38:30 PM »

Offline Jon

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Eh... If we struggle to beat Carmelo and the Pips just because they played with playoff intensity (despite shooting 36%), then I shudder to think what we would look like against the Heat.

This team needs to play much better if they want to get past the second round.

Apparently I'm in the vastcminority on this one, but I still don't think the Knicks are anything special. No, they're not the Twolves, but they're not good, either.  There can be no complaining about being up 2-0, but this team needs to find another gear against the good / very good teams that stand in their way.

I don't know.  I was disappointed with their play in the first game.  However, last game really reminded me of '10 Miami's one win against us last year when Wade was throwing up long distance, well-guarded, quite frankly, terrible, shots and hitting them.  Pierce guarded Melo well; Melo just hit a ton of tough shots that he won't hit every game. 

In fact, I think if we were to replay that game 25 times with the exact same shot selection by both teams, I think that the Celtics would win the majority of those games in blow out fashion. 

The real test will be next game.  Can they step it up and take NY by the throat on the road. 

Also, if Shaq can return before the end of the series, it will make an enormous impact on this team.  Right now it's night and day out there when Jermaine's in and when Jermaine's out.  When he's in there, NY has trouble getting to the hoop and has to settle for outside shots.  When he's not, they get to the basket practically at will.  If Shaq had been starting these games and JO had been coming in to anchor the defense of the 2nd unit (and thus avoiding the midget lineup of Green and Baby upfront), I think the C's would've never been down in Game 1 and that they would've won in blowout form Game 2. 

People make this comparison a lot.  Here's the difference:

Game 2 vs. NY (home):  Knicks shot 35.6% from the field, 32.0% from 3PT, and Carmelo was 14-for-30 with 42 points

Game 4 against MIA (road):  Heat shot 50.0% from the field, 55.6% from 3PT, and Wade shot 16-for-24 with 46 points

To me, those performances aren't equivalent at all.  In the Heat game, Wade went off (shooting 66.7% from the field), and the entire team shot well, especially from three.  Basically, that's one of those fluke games, where the other team is just hitting shots and you can't really stop them.

That's not what happened in the Knicks game at all.  Carmelo shot sub-50%, and the Knicks as a whole were terrible from the field and from deep. 

When a team and a superstar play as well as Wade and the Heat did last year, they're not going to lose very often.  However, in the Knicks game, neither the Knicks nor Carmelo were all that special.  It's a game we should have won easily, but we didn't not because of some fluke, but because we couldn't rebound the ball.

We won, which is all that really matters.  However, Game 2 wasn't an example of "well, we played well, but the Knicks just played better".  Rather, the Knicks played like crap outside of Carmelo (who was good, but not as great as Wade), and we barely squeaked by.

Statistically you're certainly correct; however, it doesn't change the fact that Melo was shooting terrible shot, after terrible shot.  I don't think I'm exaggerating at all when I say that if he shot those exact same 30 shots most games, he'd have shot somewhere around 25%, which would've been equivalent to 7-8 makes out of 30 and a 15-20 point swing.  And if that had happened, nobody would be complaining. 

I just don't know exactly what people would've wanted the C's to have done differently.  They contested practically every shot in the second half.  NY was just hitting a disproportionate amount of bad shots.  I suppose we could say that Pierce should've hit more of the wide open shots he took, but that's hardly a major problem.  Most nights he has and will hit those. 

Again, I'm not saying there's not major concerns about this team in terms of size, getting Jeff Green going, and keeping the pedal to the metal the whole game.  I just don't think last game's close score was really a product of any of those problems.  On most other nights, despite those problems, they would've won in blow out form. 

Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2011, 01:42:14 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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Apparently I'm in the vast minority on this one, but I still don't think the Knicks are anything special. No, they're not the Twolves, but they're not good, either.
Agreed -- Knicks are a slightly above average team. They pale in comparison to the Celtics who are an excellent squad and a legitimate title contender.

And the team the Knicks had on the floor the other night in the second half but absolutely atrocious. They would struggle to win 20 games. Abysmal.

Well, at least somebody sees it; at least I'm not completely losing my mind. 

Also, Carmelo is a good player, but I don't think he's in the same class as Lebron, Wade, or Kobe.  The talent is there (or a very small step below) but he hasn't fully committed himself to defense.  The defensive talent is probably there, but the commitment, effort, and consistency isn't.

Basically, I see Carmelo as not being that much different that 2006 / 2007 Paul Pierce.

I think offensively he is a lot closer to Kobe than Lebron or Wade. He is a very good shooter (wade and Lebron aren't). He is a threat from anywhere on the court, shoots well from deep and is a beast in the post. He is also a better free throw shooter than both those guys.

I think defending Lebron and Wade is easier than defending Melo. For them it's make them shoot it from outside. For Melo I really don't know what the gameplan is

Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2011, 01:43:54 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I just don't know exactly what people would've wanted the C's to have done differently.

Rebound, first and foremost.  The Celtics played very lazily against the Knicks.


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Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2011, 01:46:32 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Funny how everyone is slamming this Knicks team that could just as easily be up 2-0 on us right now as be down 2-0...

If they are as bad as many here are making out, we must not be contenders because we don't look like we're much better than they are out there...

Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2011, 01:47:56 PM »

Online Roy H.

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If they are as bad as many here are making out, we must not be contenders because we don't look like we're much better than they are out there...

I think that's the worry a lot of people are having, precisely.


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Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2011, 01:49:52 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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If they are as bad as many here are making out, we must not be contenders because we don't look like we're much better than they are out there...

I think that's the worry a lot of people are having, precisely.

This, so far is a lot like the Atlanta series a few years back.....Except this series will end in New York after 4 dogfight games.

Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2011, 01:50:44 PM »

Offline Jon

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I just don't know exactly what people would've wanted the C's to have done differently.

Rebound, first and foremost.  The Celtics played very lazily against the Knicks.

That's true.  But I meant more along the lines of playing defense.  

Personally, I would've not kept Jermaine O'Neal on the bench for the last 18 minutes of the game.  

But I still stick to my original opinion.  On a normal night, if Carmelo took those same 30 shots, rebounding woes or not, they would've won by 15-20 points.  

Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2011, 01:53:43 PM »

Online Roy H.

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If they are as bad as many here are making out, we must not be contenders because we don't look like we're much better than they are out there...

I think that's the worry a lot of people are having, precisely.

This, so far is a lot like the Atlanta series a few years back.....Except this series will end in New York after 4 dogfight games.

I know that's the comparison that a lot of people make.  I don't see it.  At home, we absolutely crushed the Hawks.  On the road, it was clear that there was a let down, and we struggled in those games.  However, at least to me, there was never any genuine debate over which team was better.  The Celtics showed that they were fully capable of stomping on the Hawks throats when they wanted to.

Here, it's been completely different.  Rather than two blowout home wins, we've had two nail-biters.  Perhaps people are putting too much emphasis on the team struggling in those two wins, but I don't think that this series has looked anything like the Atlanta series did.


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Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2011, 01:55:52 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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Do people think the Lakers are in trouble? Lets get real. We just won 2 games we probably shouldn't have. We literally had the worst rebounding game of the season and still won. That is incredible. If people think we are going to get out rebounded by 20 every game thats just ridiculous

Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2011, 01:58:08 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Do people think the Lakers are in trouble? Lets get real. We just won 2 games we probably shouldn't have. We literally had the worst rebounding game of the season and still won. That is incredible. If people think we are going to get out rebounded by 20 every game thats just ridiculous

If we are going to get real, we also have to admit that in one of those games they were without 2 of their best three players and yet we barely pulled it out and could have lost. They aren't as bad as many on here would like to believe, and we aren't as good.

Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2011, 01:58:57 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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If they are as bad as many here are making out, we must not be contenders because we don't look like we're much better than they are out there...

I think that's the worry a lot of people are having, precisely.

This, so far is a lot like the Atlanta series a few years back.....Except this series will end in New York after 4 dogfight games.

I know that's the comparison that a lot of people make.  I don't see it.  At home, we absolutely crushed the Hawks.  On the road, it was clear that there was a let down, and we struggled in those games.  However, at least to me, there was never any genuine debate over which team was better.  The Celtics showed that they were fully capable of stomping on the Hawks throats when they wanted to.

Here, it's been completely different.  Rather than two blowout home wins, we've had two nail-biters.  Perhaps people are putting too much emphasis on the team struggling in those two wins, but I don't think that this series has looked anything like the Atlanta series did.

Coach, is there any debate as to which team is better now?

Re: I don't think we're giving the Knicks enough credit/respect
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2011, 02:03:47 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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Do people think the Lakers are in trouble? Lets get real. We just won 2 games we probably shouldn't have. We literally had the worst rebounding game of the season and still won. That is incredible. If people think we are going to get out rebounded by 20 every game thats just ridiculous

If we are going to get real, we also have to admit that in one of those games they were without 2 of their best three players and yet we barely pulled it out and could have lost. They aren't as bad as many on here would like to believe, and we aren't as good.

David West has not played for the Hornets and have you seen the big men NOH has?

What about the Pacers and the Bulls? They don't even have a best player and the Bulls are struggling