Author Topic: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."  (Read 18783 times)

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Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2011, 06:11:05 PM »

Offline ballin

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Honestly, I think the whole issue of race in the NBA is an overblown topic, so I resent that I need to address is right now. But the fact of the matter is that 90% of Gasol's "soft" reputation stems from him being a white, European player. There's a word for that kind of stereotyping: racism.

Now, 10% of the issue is that Gasol got worse and worse as the Lakers went deeper and deeper into the playoffs in 2008. He was scapegoated for their loss, and a lot of his decreased effectiveness was chalked up to other players "out-toughening" him. So for the sake of the argument I'll concede that in 2008 he might have earned his "soft" label (although I'd say "choker" is more accurate).

I guess reputations are hard to shake, but flash forward to 2010. How can a guy that is among the top centers in rebounding and shot-blocking be labeled soft? Who stepped up and basically was the real Finals MVP when Kobe was choking?

In the words of Jeff Van Gundy, I don't even know what soft means. Seriously, I literally don't know what the hell that means. I'd love for somebody to explain it to me and how it applies to Gasol, but until then, I'm gonna go on the record and say that the soft label, as it applies to Gasol, is totally misplaced. It's rich that the "star" center on the team with the worst defense in the league would be the one to make this comment. What a chump, and what a bunch of racist BS.

Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2011, 06:24:05 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Honestly, I think the whole issue of race in the NBA is an overblown topic, so I resent that I need to address is right now. But the fact of the matter is that 90% of Gasol's "soft" reputation stems from him being a white, European player. There's a word for that kind of stereotyping: racism.

Now, 10% of the issue is that Gasol got worse and worse as the Lakers went deeper and deeper into the playoffs in 2008. He was scapegoated for their loss, and a lot of his decreased effectiveness was chalked up to other players "out-toughening" him. So for the sake of the argument I'll concede that in 2008 he might have earned his "soft" label (although I'd say "choker" is more accurate).

I guess reputations are hard to shake, but flash forward to 2010. How can a guy that is among the top centers in rebounding and shot-blocking be labeled soft? Who stepped up and basically was the real Finals MVP when Kobe was choking?

In the words of Jeff Van Gundy, I don't even know what soft means. Seriously, I literally don't know what the hell that means. I'd love for somebody to explain it to me and how it applies to Gasol, but until then, I'm gonna go on the record and say that the soft label, as it applies to Gasol, is totally misplaced. It's rich that the "star" center on the team with the worst defense in the league would be the one to make this comment. What a chump, and what a bunch of racist BS.

What you stated has some merit - as far as the unfair label.

Gasol earned more respect from me in 08-09 - when he was matched up againt Dwight in the Finals. He played very well - especially since Dwight basically schooled Bynum then. I remember Bynum getting in foul trouble often in that series.

I've stated before that I think the most important player (starting) on LA is Gasol - if KG can keep him in check I don't care what Kobe does. It is for this reason why I love our chances vs LA this year.

As for Amar'e? Well he's talented too - but I still think Gasol gets the nod over him. The "Softness" tag is often misplaced, and I think it is in this case.


Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2011, 04:11:02 AM »

Offline LilRip

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True.  I should try a little more...but I'm lazy (hence being on CB instead of writing the paper I need to do...).

Looked at the Yahoo fantasy thing for quickie rankings.  Among Center-eligibles, which includes PF's of course due to the way Yahoo does their thing, Gasol is still top 10 in points and rebounds, and #13 in blocks (but behind Howard on all 3).  (looking at season averages)

My argument is that the margin by which Howard is better than Gasol in the areas he is known for is actually pretty small, and the margin by which Gasol is the better player (in those areas) is a bit larger, giving the nod to Gasol in my book.  Obviously, it's pretty close.

Dwight leads the league in turnovers per game at the C position, for example (Amare is second).  And for someone that draws so much attention from opposing defenses, and with a team of shooters around him, presumably to hit open shots when he is doubled, he only averages 1.3 assists/game.  With all due respect to Glen Davis, Howard might be the real black hole of basketball.

Gasol is #3 in assists for Center-eligibles.

And with the rebounding numbers, Pau plays mostly PF, or a lot of PF, since Bynum came back, which has him away from the paint a bit more than Dwight on both ends of the floor.  Gasol has a couple of 20-rebound games, not as much as Howard of course, but the case is that he's still an elite rebounder (better than solid).

  Your discussion is missing four letters. D P O Y.

You're right again...gosh, I stink at this. 

But let's add two-time defending champion and top big man in the international game to Gasol's accolades as well.

  I don't think either of those accolades help Pau's case.

Well, Tim, I happen to think that championships and playoff achievements matter, so it seems I must resort to the "oh, come on" argument.  If not for NBA/Stern rigging, Gasol was Finals MVP.

hmm... i would think that having Kobe-Odom-Artest-Bynum as teammates and Phil Jackson as a coach helps things in the playoff/championship department. because without them, Gasol can't get past the first round (see: Memphis Grizzlies).
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Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2011, 07:07:36 AM »

Offline chambers

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Gasol is the best big man in the game...more skills than Howard.

Toughness complements talent well, but can't replace it.

  Think the Magic would be better with Gasol than Howard? I don't.


I think when teams are built around one player, who that player is makes a difference in the other guys that are brought in, so you're probably correct that a swap-out of centerpieces changes the table.

But I think that Gasol's passing and high post game would ultimately do wonders for just about any team, including the Magic, though other players would have to step up and get some boards.  I'd say Gasol can make his teammates better in more ways than Howard.

As I think about it, yeah, I'm standing by it:

Gasol > Howard

  Was that a roundabout "no"? And you don't think that Howard's defense and rebounding would do wonders for every team in the league? And in what way does Gasol make his teammates better? This isn't Bird or Magic we're discussing.


Howard does give great defense and rebounding, but doesn't do that much else at a genuinely elite level.  His offense is starting to improve, become more varied, etc., getting him past put-backs and dunks with that little running "Walton" hook, for example, but offensively, he's still rough...nearly 4 TO's/gm.

Gasol is a solid rebounder and defender as well, averaging 10 boards and 1.7 blocks this season, but adds a much, much more polished offensive game.  I think that difference gives him the edge over Howard.

  Note you're discounting what Howard does because it isn't "genuinely elite", but you're praising Gasol for being solid at things. I think that says a lot about your argument.

True.  I should try a little more...but I'm lazy (hence being on CB instead of writing the paper I need to do...).

Looked at the Yahoo fantasy thing for quickie rankings.  Among Center-eligibles, which includes PF's of course due to the way Yahoo does their thing, Gasol is still top 10 in points and rebounds, and #13 in blocks (but behind Howard on all 3).  (looking at season averages)

My argument is that the margin by which Howard is better than Gasol in the areas he is known for is actually pretty small, and the margin by which Gasol is the better player (in those areas) is a bit larger, giving the nod to Gasol in my book.  Obviously, it's pretty close.

Dwight leads the league in turnovers per game at the C position, for example (Amare is second).  And for someone that draws so much attention from opposing defenses, and with a team of shooters around him, presumably to hit open shots when he is doubled, he only averages 1.3 assists/game.  With all due respect to Glen Davis, Howard might be the real black hole of basketball.

Gasol is #3 in assists for Center-eligibles.

And with the rebounding numbers, Pau plays mostly PF, or a lot of PF, since Bynum came back, which has him away from the paint a bit more than Dwight on both ends of the floor.  Gasol has a couple of 20-rebound games, not as much as Howard of course, but the case is that he's still an elite rebounder (better than solid).

You can't compare the two because Bynum is on Pau's team.
If Bynum were in there with Howard he would take half of Howards stats too.
Pau is better offensively and fit into the Lakers system perfectly- He's a European big man. Howard is a gritty ABC type of player who relies on his athletic ability to get multiple attempts under the rim whilst dragging defenders away from the perimeter shooters on his team. Chalk and cheese. Each are the best big men for the role they need to fill on their respective teams.
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Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2011, 07:28:48 AM »

Offline BballTim

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True.  I should try a little more...but I'm lazy (hence being on CB instead of writing the paper I need to do...).

Looked at the Yahoo fantasy thing for quickie rankings.  Among Center-eligibles, which includes PF's of course due to the way Yahoo does their thing, Gasol is still top 10 in points and rebounds, and #13 in blocks (but behind Howard on all 3).  (looking at season averages)

My argument is that the margin by which Howard is better than Gasol in the areas he is known for is actually pretty small, and the margin by which Gasol is the better player (in those areas) is a bit larger, giving the nod to Gasol in my book.  Obviously, it's pretty close.

Dwight leads the league in turnovers per game at the C position, for example (Amare is second).  And for someone that draws so much attention from opposing defenses, and with a team of shooters around him, presumably to hit open shots when he is doubled, he only averages 1.3 assists/game.  With all due respect to Glen Davis, Howard might be the real black hole of basketball.

Gasol is #3 in assists for Center-eligibles.

And with the rebounding numbers, Pau plays mostly PF, or a lot of PF, since Bynum came back, which has him away from the paint a bit more than Dwight on both ends of the floor.  Gasol has a couple of 20-rebound games, not as much as Howard of course, but the case is that he's still an elite rebounder (better than solid).

  Your discussion is missing four letters. D P O Y.

You're right again...gosh, I stink at this. 

But let's add two-time defending champion and top big man in the international game to Gasol's accolades as well.

  I don't think either of those accolades help Pau's case.

Well, Tim, I happen to think that championships and playoff achievements matter, so it seems I must resort to the "oh, come on" argument.  If not for NBA/Stern rigging, Gasol was Finals MVP.

  Haha. Everyone thinks championships and playoffs matter, most people realize that achieving them is very dependent on your teammates. Does Howard win any titles with Kobe on his team? Likely. Does Gasol win any without Kobe? No. Howard led a team to the Finals at 23. Pau didn't win a playoff series until he was 27.

Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2011, 08:39:58 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Honestly, I think the whole issue of race in the NBA is an overblown topic, so I resent that I need to address is right now. But the fact of the matter is that 90% of Gasol's "soft" reputation stems from him being a white, European player. There's a word for that kind of stereotyping: racism.

  It's because he's a euro, not because he's white. That's not racism.

Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2011, 08:50:01 AM »

Offline myteamisbetterthanyours

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OK... how you guys don't think pau gasol is soft is beyond me.. Do u guys even remember 2008 (when everyone... EVERYONE was critizing Pau Gasol and the Lakers for being soft, even Kobe said they were soft)? and do u guys even remember last years finals (when the only time he seemed to do well was when a much shorter glen davis was guarding him, not to mention that his best game that series was COINCIDENTALLY the one that Perkins missed)?

Pau Gasol is one of the most skilled big men the game has seen in a while.. THIS DOESNT MEAN HE ISNT SOFT.. and to say that people think he's soft JUST because he's white and european is hogwash.. THERE ARE PLENTY OF SOFT BLACK PLAYERS in the NBA.. yea i said it! and im black! (Channing Frye... his name is channing for God's sake.. POB!!!... Dampier... villanueva.. CHRIS BOSH IS PROBABLY THE SOFTEST BIG BLACK MAN IN AMERICA...) just to name a few!

Pau isnt just soft cuz hes european, hes soft because he can get bullied around down low by bulkier big men... His brother Marc (also european) is not soft... Andrew Bogut (also white) is not soft... Hell, I don't even think Dirk is soft anymore (he's shown a growth in toughness over the years)... So inclusion, to the guy who thinks that Amare is racist and only thinks pau is soft cuz hes european, take in consideration that you can't be soft based on race.. Mental weakness, physical build, and style of play makes you soft in the NBA.. if you're a big man and you play like shooting guard, chances are you're soft. Not saying that Pau plays like a shooting guard, but the guy looks like a turkey and gets bullied down low more often than not. Softness has nothing to do with race. P.S. Amare and Howard > Pau anyday

Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2011, 09:02:06 AM »

Offline boom

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How is this even a discussion. Gasol is a phenomenal baller, no question about that. However, when you're own teammates calls you soft, you're soft.

Period.


Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2011, 09:30:49 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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and do u guys even remember last years finals (when the only time he seemed to do well was when a much shorter glen davis was guarding him, not to mention that his best game that series was COINCIDENTALLY the one that Perkins missed)?
You surely jest. Or really haven't watched the finals carefully. Gasol posted a 23 and 14 in the first game of the finals, then proceeded to kill us with regularity (3 more 20+ point games, 4 more 12+ rebound games). That's before we even introduce the 6-block game (and the total of 18 swats for the series) into the picture. Or the 26 assists. Or the 5 double-doubles.
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Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2011, 10:04:57 AM »

Offline myteamisbetterthanyours

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and do u guys even remember last years finals (when the only time he seemed to do well was when a much shorter glen davis was guarding him, not to mention that his best game that series was COINCIDENTALLY the one that Perkins missed)?
You surely jest. Or really haven't watched the finals carefully. Gasol posted a 23 and 14 in the first game of the finals, then proceeded to kill us with regularity (3 more 20+ point games, 4 more 12+ rebound games). That's before we even introduce the 6-block game (and the total of 18 swats for the series) into the picture. Or the 26 assists. Or the 5 double-doubles.

Actually you're wrong about the first stat.. in game 1 of the finals he scored 19 points.. on 6-16 shooting (not very good)... he did have 18 boards which hurts my argument.. but remember he did this against an AILING KG (which is a very important factor) and an undersized Glen Davis..........

He had the 6 blocks in game 2 (a game in which KG only took 5 shots and davis took 13)... How hard is it to block glen davis 6 times? i could probably do that.. especially with a wingspan like gasols....  Gasol was a minus 12 in this game btw....

He had a terrible Game 3 by his standards only scoring 13 points and allowing KG to have his best game of the series.. the big ticket got PAU for 25 points...

He only had 6 boards in Game 4. and 4 turnovers, (did have 21 pts tho). and he allowed a very undersized Glen Davis to explode for 18 points...

He only had 12 points in Game 5.

Game 6 was probably his best overall game going for 17 pts, 13 rebs, 9 assists, 3 blocks and a steal... this was the game Perkins got injured and only played 7 minutes..... coincidence? i think not...

and Game 7... With no Perkins to bully him around... he grabbed 9 off rebounds......

So in conclusion... the only reason Pau Gasol (Probably the most polished offensive PF in the world) did fairly well in last years finals, was because KG was hurt, Big Baby is short, Rasheed is lazy, shelden williams sucks, and Perkins was out game 6 and 7 (in which pau had two very strong (unsoft-like) games).

Now if you compare these stats to the 08 finals (in which the C's boasted a HEALTHY KG, an angry Perkins, James Posey, PJ Brown, Leon POW (lol) and Glen Davis) you'll find that Pau Gasol's play was soft in that series... but im too lazy to do all that analyzing right now.

Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2011, 10:17:26 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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and do u guys even remember last years finals (when the only time he seemed to do well was when a much shorter glen davis was guarding him, not to mention that his best game that series was COINCIDENTALLY the one that Perkins missed)?
You surely jest. Or really haven't watched the finals carefully. Gasol posted a 23 and 14 in the first game of the finals, then proceeded to kill us with regularity (3 more 20+ point games, 4 more 12+ rebound games). That's before we even introduce the 6-block game (and the total of 18 swats for the series) into the picture. Or the 26 assists. Or the 5 double-doubles.

Actually you're wrong about the first stat.. in game 1 of the finals he scored 19 points.. on 6-16 shooting (not very good)... he did have 18 boards which hurts my argument.. but remember he did this against an AILING KG (which is a very important factor) and an undersized Glen Davis..........

He had the 6 blocks in game 2 (a game in which KG only took 5 shots and davis took 13)... How hard is it to block glen davis 6 times? i could probably do that.. especially with a wingspan like gasols....  Gasol was a minus 12 in this game btw....

He had a terrible Game 3 by his standards only scoring 13 points and allowing KG to have his best game of the series.. the big ticket got PAU for 25 points...

He only had 6 boards in Game 4. and 4 turnovers, (did have 21 pts tho). and he allowed a very undersized Glen Davis to explode for 18 points...

He only had 12 points in Game 5.

Game 6 was probably his best overall game going for 17 pts, 13 rebs, 9 assists, 3 blocks and a steal... this was the game Perkins got injured and only played 7 minutes..... coincidence? i think not...

and Game 7... With no Perkins to bully him around... he grabbed 9 off rebounds......

So in conclusion... the only reason Pau Gasol (Probably the most polished offensive PF in the world) did fairly well in last years finals, was because KG was hurt, Big Baby is short, Rasheed is lazy, shelden williams sucks, and Perkins was out game 6 and 7 (in which pau had two very strong (unsoft-like) games).

Now if you compare these stats to the 08 finals (in which the C's boasted a HEALTHY KG, an angry Perkins, James Posey, PJ Brown, Leon POW (lol) and Glen Davis) you'll find that Pau Gasol's play was soft in that series... but im too lazy to do all that analyzing right now.
So you gave us a full breakdown of the Finals. Incorrect, at that (the 6-16 shooting, 19-point, 18-rebound effort came in game 7, not game 1). Thank you for that, we really needed it.

As for the "only conclusion" -- the only evident conclusion from what I read is that you think Pau Gasol is soft, and whatever happened in last year's finals, it will be attributed to ailing Kevin Garnett, undersized Glen Davis, and injured Kendrick Perkins.

But the simple fact of life remains that Pau Gasol, in those finals, looked nothing like Pau Gasol circa 2008.
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Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2011, 10:21:53 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Without getting into the general argument, I think it's relevant (and pretty funny) to point out that Silver Screen and Roll (prominent Laker blog) has had to set its filter to not allow the word "Gasoft". 

Regardless of how valid the idea is, it's not one that's exclusive to Laker haters, or to 2008.

Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2011, 10:23:12 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Without getting into the general argument, I think it's relevant (and pretty funny) to point out that Silver Screen and Roll (prominent Laker blog) has had to set its filter to not allow the word "Gasoft". 

Regardless of how valid the idea is, it's not one that's exclusive to Laker haters, or to 2008.
Either that, or they like having an automated way to deal with trolls.
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Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2011, 10:25:01 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Without getting into the general argument, I think it's relevant (and pretty funny) to point out that Silver Screen and Roll (prominent Laker blog) has had to set its filter to not allow the word "Gasoft". 

Regardless of how valid the idea is, it's not one that's exclusive to Laker haters, or to 2008.
Either that, or they like having an automated way to deal with trolls.

Well, the way I learned about it was from checking out their game threads when we played LA - several frequent posters were complaining about it, on the grounds that they felt the term was accurate.  So not just for trolls either.  CB definitely doesn't have a monopoly on Chicken Littleing.

Re: Amare Stoudemire: "Pau Gasol is Soft."
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2011, 10:28:46 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Without getting into the general argument, I think it's relevant (and pretty funny) to point out that Silver Screen and Roll (prominent Laker blog) has had to set its filter to not allow the word "Gasoft". 

Regardless of how valid the idea is, it's not one that's exclusive to Laker haters, or to 2008.
Either that, or they like having an automated way to deal with trolls.

Well, the way I learned about it was from checking out their game threads when we played LA - several frequent posters were complaining about it, on the grounds that they felt the term was accurate.  So not just for trolls either.  CB definitely doesn't have a monopoly on Chicken Littleing.
Yeah, fans can be fickle sometimes.
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