Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?

[barefacedmonk]

Stats dont make someone a star.

You need offense to be considered a star.

Those two statements contradict each other.

[Fan from VT]

Stats dont make someone a star.

You need offense to be considered a star.

Those two statements contradict each other.

How? it only seems to be a contradiction if you believe either that offensive ability will definitely lead to stats, or that good stats are always accumulated in an "empty" fashion. Basically, it's only a contradiction if "stats" is equivalent to "offense." I don't see why it is.

[Megatron]

Stats dont make someone a star.

You need offense to be considered a star.

Those two statements contradict each other.

How?

Stats dont always = offense.

Stats also consist of assists/rebounding/blocks etc.

The point is that in this offense driven league, you have to have some sort of talent in that area to be a star player, Noah has none. Maybe in a few years if he develops some sort of post moves and makes some big plays, but as of right now, if Noah is a star, then Perkins is also a star player, they both have the same exact talent and skill set, Noah just has more energy and plays more minutes.

[barefacedmonk]

Stats dont make someone a star.

You need offense to be considered a star.

Those two statements contradict each other.

How?

Stats dont always = offense.

Stats also consist of assists/rebounding/blocks etc.

Offensive numbers aren't a part of a player's stats?

[Megatron]

Stats dont make someone a star.

You need offense to be considered a star.

Those two statements contradict each other.

How?

Stats dont always = offense.

Stats also consist of assists/rebounding/blocks etc.

Offensive numbers aren't a part of a player's stats?

Yes they are, but not for every player. Guys like Perkins/Noah arent judged by their offensive numbers, because they dont have offensive talent and arent on the team to score. They are judged by their defensive rating, rebounds and blocks, which are stats.

[Fafnir]

Here's how I tend to break it down.

1) Stars-  Your primary guy or guys.  Depending on the team, it can be anywhere from 1-3 guys.  You rarely see 3 guys.

2) Starters-  These guys fill out the starting five.  They're not stars.

3) Rotation-  Your first guys off the bench.  Typically made up of your 6th man, sharpshooter, and fill in the blank.  The fill in the blank guy could be a backup PG or a big man.  Basically meshes to whatever the team has going for it.  

4) Bench-  The Scalabrines of the world.  The guys who fill out the end of your bench but typically don't see the light of day unless its garbage time or injuries have cracked into the above 3 groups.

I will say that I typically associate "role players" more towards the rotation guys and not necessarily starters but I think you can make the argument to blend in #2 & #3.

Pretty much my viewpoint, I also don't think you need to be a plus offensive player to be a star. Ben Wallace was a star and was a net negative on that end.

Noah isn't there yet, but I think he's a clear starter and borderline "star". Boozer clearly is a star player in this league, as is Rose. (though I think Rose is over rated in the MVP race)

[Fafnir]

Bulls with Rose + role players >  Celtics with Rondo + 4 hall of famers + deepest bench in the league.


Lol... jk.   Classic Troll post is classic.

Boozer/Noah are role players?

Noah is definately a role player.

I second that

I guess I'd ask how do you guys define a role player?

He's certainly not a great offensive player or threat, but he's no longer a clear liability on that end. He is also a high level rebounder and defender. That takes him out of the "role player" category in my eyes.

His game is rebounding and put-back dunks/layups.

Perkins/Chandler/Varejao are perfect comparisons for Noah. Both have no offensive game and only uses are rebounds/defense/put-backs.

Thats a role player, they have one role, and they play that role to the max.

Noahs stats are greatly inflated by who he plays with you have to remember that.

Being a role-player isnt a bad thing. But Noah is a role-player, not a star.

So its about his offense. I guess we'll just have to say I disagree. Scoring off of post ups and jump shots is important, but it isn't what defines a "star" and a "role-player".

The best shot in the game is a dunk after all.

If Noah isnt role-player then what is he?

If Noah is a star player, then Perkins, Chandler, and Varejao are also star players, because they are exactly the same as each other. No offensive talent, but rebound and dunk/put-back layups well.

He isnt a star player, he is a very high level role-player and whos stats are inflated by who he plays with.

When Noah went out for 2 and half months, the Bulls kept winning, they simply slid Kurt Thomas into his spot, and Kurt did the same exact things Noah did albiet at a lower rate. But the Bulls kept winning.

Our Big 4 are star players, if any of those 4 went down for 2 and a half months, this team would be in shambles and would be struggling even be the 4th seed in the east because star players cannot have their roles replaced.

Bulls would still have the same record if Perkins/Chandler/Varejao took Noahs spot. Role-players are way easier to replace then stars.

I don't think its a dichotomy of stars and non-stars in the league.

Besides Noah has a very good chance at being an all-star if he's healthy for a full year.

[barefacedmonk]

Stats dont make someone a star.

You need offense to be considered a star.

Those two statements contradict each other.

How?

Stats dont always = offense.

Stats also consist of assists/rebounding/blocks etc.

Offensive numbers aren't a part of a player's stats?

Yes they are, but not for every player. Guys like Perkins/Noah arent judged by their offensive numbers, because they dont have offensive talent and arent on the team to score. They are judged by their defensive rating, rebounds and blocks, which are stats.

What do you mean not for every player? When you talk about stats you include everything..including offensive numbers...and if one were to follow your criteria to determine a star in this league, then players like Dennis Rodman were never a star, I guess.

I don't understand your logic...a few days back you called Mike Miller a scrub and now Noah is a role player? Mike Miller is a role player on his team and Noah is a borderline star...and a very good starter on for his team.

How many offensive moves does Howard have in his arsenal? Howard has been a star for a few years now...even though he has added some more offensive moves to his repertoire this year.

[OsirusCeltics]

Bulls with Rose + role players >  Celtics with Rondo + 4 hall of famers + deepest bench in the league.


Lol... jk.   Classic Troll post is classic.

Boozer/Noah are role players?

Noah is definately a role player.

I second that

I guess I'd ask how do you guys define a role player?

He's certainly not a great offensive player or threat, but he's no longer a clear liability on that end. He is also a high level rebounder and defender. That takes him out of the "role player" category in my eyes.

His game is rebounding and put-back dunks/layups.

Perkins/Chandler/Varejao are perfect comparisons for Noah. Both have no offensive game and only uses are rebounds/defense/put-backs.

Thats a role player, they have one role, and they play that role to the max.

Noahs stats are greatly inflated by who he plays with you have to remember that.

Being a role-player isnt a bad thing. But Noah is a role-player, not a star.

So its about his offense. I guess we'll just have to say I disagree. Scoring off of post ups and jump shots is important, but it isn't what defines a "star" and a "role-player".

The best shot in the game is a dunk after all.

If Noah isnt role-player then what is he?

If Noah is a star player, then Perkins, Chandler, and Varejao are also star players, because they are exactly the same as each other. No offensive talent, but rebound and dunk/put-back layups well.

He isnt a star player, he is a very high level role-player and whos stats are inflated by who he plays with.

When Noah went out for 2 and half months, the Bulls kept winning, they simply slid Kurt Thomas into his spot, and Kurt did the same exact things Noah did albiet at a lower rate. But the Bulls kept winning.

Our Big 4 are star players, if any of those 4 went down for 2 and a half months, this team would be in shambles and would be struggling even be the 4th seed in the east because star players cannot have their roles replaced.

Bulls would still have the same record if Perkins/Chandler/Varejao took Noahs spot. Role-players are way easier to replace then stars.

Would that make Rondo a role player too?  Isn't everyone a role player then?

When I think "Role Player" I think of guys who don't start or guys who shouldn't start.

Varajao and Noah are excellent defenders.  Varajao was almost an All Star last year, was the second best player on a 67 win team.  

Noah was averaging a double double before he got hurt.

Reggie Evans is a role player.  Steve Kerr was a role player.  It's usually guys who are good at one skill and terrible at everything else.

Stats dont make someone a star. Rondo has no offense, but he has built his star reputation by preforming big in the playoffs, putting up historical triple doubles, etc. People that arent basketball fans, know who he is.

Noah has done none of that, he is the #4th option on a team with only 1 all-star.

Role players are incomplete players who lack the talent to be stars, the focal point of teams, guys like Perkins, Chandler, Varejao, and Noah.

They are big bruisers, who defend and rebound, but outside of that dont do much else.

They are good players, but they arent stars, Star players also have the reputation/accomplishment factor, and are household names.

Star players make big plays.

Could you give Noah the ball with 5 seconds left and expect him to make an offensive move to the basket? No, you couldnt, because he has no moves.

He is a high energy, defender/rebounder. You need offense to be considered a star.

TP
I second that. Agree with everything you said