Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?

[BballTim]

I think Westbrook is as good of a defender as Rondo, his size gives him a big advantage on that end allowing him to play bigger players tougher.

  Maybe. PGs against Westbrook average 9.2 assists/48, .92 points/poss and a PER of 17.4. Rondo gives up 8 assists/48, .79 points/poss and a PER of 12.4. Defensive stats are somewhat nebulous, as are things like all-defense teams but they support my opinion so I'll throw them out there.

[BballTim]

The game that scores the most points usually wins, right? Well, you add up the points a PG scores plus the points that are scored thru his assists and that should give you a clear idea of who is more effective. If a PG scores 20 points and has 15 assists, that would sum up around 20 + 30 points not counting how many points on the assists are 3 pointers. I dont know if you get an assist if the recipient of the pass is fouled and either scores 2 foul, on 1 foul or misses both. You would have to consider the total output of each PG to determine who is most effective. Assists are extremely important. of course, but scoring points anyway you can is the best. A study would have to be made of which PG today causes the most points to be scored by his team by summing up his points and the points he causes his team to score.

  You should also consider how the players do on the other end of the court. According to 82games Westbrook gets 9.5 points and 2.4 assists more than his opposing pg in 48 minutes. If you count the differences in rebounds, turnovers, shots and free throws Westbrook uses 8.4 possessions to get those 9.5 points. Considering OKC's scoring rate they get around 9.3 points in 8.4 possessions so his scoring advantage is basically a wash.

  Rondo gets outscored by 4.5 points in 48 mintes and gets 7.5 more assists than his opponent. But he uses 7,2 fewer possessions than his opponent. Based on the Celts scoring rate those possessions are worth about 7.8 points. So considering possessions used Westbrook gains you about .2 points and 2.4 assists in 48 minutes, Rondo nets you 3.3 points and 7.5 assists in the same amount of time.

That's weird way to look at things I think, since it punishes Westbrook for having to carry a big chunk of the load offensively for his team, while rewarding Rondo by being surrounded by awesome teammates.

  It doesn't take into account the fact that the Celts shooting percentage goes up when Rondo's in, not so with the Thunder and Westbrook. I don't think it really punishes Westbrook other than it takes into account defense, although you could argue that it does in the number of assists. There are a lot of ways to judge things though. If you count assists as possessions and credit the pg with the points the assists bring then you'd get Westbrook generating 41 points on 33 possessions (1.24 ppp) vs Rondo, 37 points on 26 possessions (1.42  ppp). It's really an apples to oranges argument.

Was merely commenting that in a Thunder's team, the shot distribution is heavily influenced by two players, being Westbrook and Durant. As such their contributions to the team average influences heavily. In contrast, since Rondo doesn't carry that burden he's benefiting from his teammates who are great offensive weapons. So a lot of the numbers you had used above reflect this nature of the team. The absence of possessions from Rondo not taking a shot attempt works in his favor when he's surrounded with the likes of Ray, Pierce, and KG.

  Agree, but it's worth pointing out that his play generally makes his teammates better offensive weapons, which isn't true of every pg.

And I think that the recent play of the Celtics cast the "awesome teammates" argument into a different light. They seem to struggle mightily when Rondo's playing poorly.

Which has been my main argument when I complain about Rondo. When I complain about Rondo I do so from the perspective of the amount of responsibility he has in running our offense, and when he's not doing anything, then it hurts us more so when you consider all the offensive weapons we have in our team.

With Westbrook, other than Durant, he's pretty much the offensive weapon, so for better or worse you're stuck with his scoring ability every day. They struggle when he doesn't play well similarly, but in his case he doesn't have much choice about it. He doesn't have many options to go to when he's had a poor shooting night.

In this regard, I think Rondo responsibilities allow him to have more control on what he can do well to help the team (and it's the thing that he has control over that bother me), while Westbrook's responsibilities limit what he can do when he's not shooting well for example, some of that he doesn't have much control over. You can only hope he at least improves on his shot selection when he's having an off night.

Then we have to consider how people guard each player etc.

  It's also worth pointing out that players like Green and Krstic seem like better offensive weapons playing with Rondo/the Celts (especially a healthy Rondo) than the did in OKC with Westbrook.

[Fafnir]

I think Westbrook is as good of a defender as Rondo, his size gives him a big advantage on that end allowing him to play bigger players tougher.

  Maybe. PGs against Westbrook average 9.2 assists/48, .92 points/poss and a PER of 17.4. Rondo gives up 8 assists/48, .79 points/poss and a PER of 12.4. Defensive stats are somewhat nebulous, as are things like all-defense teams but they support my opinion so I'll throw them out there.

The Celtics team defense is tied for first in the league, the Thunder are 16th in the NBA. That will skew the comparison, though Rondo is part of that ranking of course. But the Thunder don't have a defender the caliber of KG (or even Pierce at SF)

The Thunder also switch a ton which moves Westbrook onto SGs and even SFs frequently. So simple opposing player production starts to be come irrelevant, especially when you're comparing too very different defensive schemes.

Westbrooks size/length/quickness allows the Thunder's switching to work to the extent it does.

Rondo is much better at pressuring the ball though.

[Fafnir]

With Westbrook, other than Durant, he's pretty much the offensive weapon, so for better or worse you're stuck with his scoring ability every day. They struggle when he doesn't play well similarly, but in his case he doesn't have much choice about it. He doesn't have many options to go to when he's had a poor shooting night.

I think you're underselling OKC, they had Jeff Green (a very talented offensive player, especially at the 4), James Harden (a talented scorer), and Durant who are all legit offensive options.

Collison and Krstic are also capable on that end as shooters and finishers around the rim.

Westbrook doesn't make things easier for his team except largely though kick outs on drives to the hoop and running the fast break well. He's had plenty of talent to work with offensively.

[BballTim]

I think Westbrook is as good of a defender as Rondo, his size gives him a big advantage on that end allowing him to play bigger players tougher.

  Maybe. PGs against Westbrook average 9.2 assists/48, .92 points/poss and a PER of 17.4. Rondo gives up 8 assists/48, .79 points/poss and a PER of 12.4. Defensive stats are somewhat nebulous, as are things like all-defense teams but they support my opinion so I'll throw them out there.

The Celtics team defense is tied for first in the league, the Thunder are 16th in the NBA. That will skew the comparison, though Rondo is part of that ranking of course. But the Thunder don't have a defender the caliber of KG (or even Pierce at SF)

The Thunder also switch a ton which moves Westbrook onto SGs and even SFs frequently. So simple opposing player production starts to be come irrelevant, especially when you're comparing too very different defensive schemes.

Westbrooks size/length/quickness allows the Thunder's switching to work to the extent it does.

Rondo is much better at pressuring the ball though.

  Unrelated, but it's pretty surprising we're already back to almost even with Chicago, when they were over a point a game better late(ish) last week. That's quite a swing for this late in the season, fueled in no small part by the Bucks game.

[Fafnir]

I think Westbrook is as good of a defender as Rondo, his size gives him a big advantage on that end allowing him to play bigger players tougher.

  Maybe. PGs against Westbrook average 9.2 assists/48, .92 points/poss and a PER of 17.4. Rondo gives up 8 assists/48, .79 points/poss and a PER of 12.4. Defensive stats are somewhat nebulous, as are things like all-defense teams but they support my opinion so I'll throw them out there.

The Celtics team defense is tied for first in the league, the Thunder are 16th in the NBA. That will skew the comparison, though Rondo is part of that ranking of course. But the Thunder don't have a defender the caliber of KG (or even Pierce at SF)

The Thunder also switch a ton which moves Westbrook onto SGs and even SFs frequently. So simple opposing player production starts to be come irrelevant, especially when you're comparing too very different defensive schemes.

Westbrooks size/length/quickness allows the Thunder's switching to work to the extent it does.

Rondo is much better at pressuring the ball though.

  Unrelated, but it's pretty surprising we're already back to almost even with Chicago, when they were over a point a game better late(ish) last week. That's quite a swing for this late in the season, fueled in no small part by the Bucks game.

They've made a simlar gain offensively in the same stretch. They were behind us by over a point on that end of the floor.

The C's haven't been scoring much and the Bulls beat up on the Wizards.

[BballTim]

I think Westbrook is as good of a defender as Rondo, his size gives him a big advantage on that end allowing him to play bigger players tougher.

  Maybe. PGs against Westbrook average 9.2 assists/48, .92 points/poss and a PER of 17.4. Rondo gives up 8 assists/48, .79 points/poss and a PER of 12.4. Defensive stats are somewhat nebulous, as are things like all-defense teams but they support my opinion so I'll throw them out there.

The Celtics team defense is tied for first in the league, the Thunder are 16th in the NBA. That will skew the comparison, though Rondo is part of that ranking of course. But the Thunder don't have a defender the caliber of KG (or even Pierce at SF)

The Thunder also switch a ton which moves Westbrook onto SGs and even SFs frequently. So simple opposing player production starts to be come irrelevant, especially when you're comparing too very different defensive schemes.

Westbrooks size/length/quickness allows the Thunder's switching to work to the extent it does.

Rondo is much better at pressuring the ball though.

  Unrelated, but it's pretty surprising we're already back to almost even with Chicago, when they were over a point a game better late(ish) last week. That's quite a swing for this late in the season, fueled in no small part by the Bucks game.

They've made a simlar gain offensively in the same stretch. They were behind us by over a point on that end of the floor.

The C's haven't been scoring much and the Bulls beat up on the Wizards.

  They also had a good game vs the Jazz.

[OsirusCeltics]

Because people overvalue scoring.

I'm telling you, there has to be something with users with Paul Pierce photos, their points are always so valuable! Lol

So true. Really? So since Westbrook and Rose can both score 40 means that they are better? That has nothing to with being a point guard! Rondo PLAYS THE POINT GUARD POSITION better than any of those shooting guards camouflaging as point guards. He is only second best to Chris Paul

[greenpride32]

Because people overvalue scoring.

I'm telling you, there has to be something with users with Paul Pierce photos, their points are always so valuable! Lol

So true. Really? So since Westbrook and Rose can both score 40 means that they are better? That has nothing to with being a point guard! Rondo PLAYS THE POINT GUARD POSITION better than any of those shooting guards camouflaging as point guards. He is only second best to Chris Paul

Derrick Rose is the leading MVP candidate because he plays for a contender and is their main go to guy for scoring.  He'll take the ball for 5-6 straight possesions down the strech if he has to (just like MJ did).  Kevin Durant got the same type of recognition last year for OKC and everyone predicted he would be future MVP.  For years that's how NBA players have been viewed in terms of value.

So because Rondo is not a scorer, the "rules" should all change now?  Too many homers on these boards that overrate guys like Rondo and Perkins.  Don't get me wrong; they certainly bring something to the table.  I'm not trying to discredit them, but when you start going league wide for comparisons you're going to find they don't always stack up favorably.   

[LarBrd33]

I love Rondo.  He's a lot of fun to watch when he's on.  But I dont' know if he averages 10+ assists without KG, Pierce and (mainly) Ray getting his passes.  

He really IS great.  And he's a legitimate all-star, but I don't think he's a top 5 PG.  CP and Deron are obviously the top. Rose is better. Westbrook has leapfrogged him.  Most will say Nash is still better... And then MAYBE Rondo takes #5, but I think John Wall takes that spot within a year.

Perk wasn't a top 10 center either.

[BballTim]

Because people overvalue scoring.

I'm telling you, there has to be something with users with Paul Pierce photos, their points are always so valuable! Lol

So true. Really? So since Westbrook and Rose can both score 40 means that they are better? That has nothing to with being a point guard! Rondo PLAYS THE POINT GUARD POSITION better than any of those shooting guards camouflaging as point guards. He is only second best to Chris Paul

Derrick Rose is the leading MVP candidate because he plays for a contender and is their main go to guy for scoring.  He'll take the ball for 5-6 straight possesions down the strech if he has to (just like MJ did).  Kevin Durant got the same type of recognition last year for OKC and everyone predicted he would be future MVP.  For years that's how NBA players have been viewed in terms of value.

So because Rondo is not a scorer, the "rules" should all change now?  Too many homers on these boards that overrate guys like Rondo and Perkins.  Don't get me wrong; they certainly bring something to the table.  I'm not trying to discredit them, but when you start going league wide for comparisons you're going to find they don't always stack up favorably.   

  I don't think it's a matter of changing the rules, just recognizing that they're more complicated than the typical "scorers are always better". People aren't saying that you should ignore a player's scoring ability, or even really place less of an emphasis on it. It's that you need to consider a player's total impact on a game. Rondo's defense impacts games, his rebounding impacts games, and so does his directing the offense and when he controls the pace of the game. Rondo impacts more facets of the game than any other pg in the league, you just discount much of that.

  As for your "MVP" argument, it's worth pointing out that Rondo's spent quite a bit of time on the top 10 mvp candidates on places like nba.com and espn.com. I'd hazard a guess that if these people think he's one of the 10 most valuable players in the league then their opinion of Rondo is closer to that of the "homers" than to yours.

[BballTim]

I love Rondo.  He's a lot of fun to watch when he's on.  But I dont' know if he averages 10+ assists without KG, Pierce and (mainly) Ray getting his passes.  

He really IS great.  And he's a legitimate all-star, but I don't think he's a top 5 PG.  CP and Deron are obviously the top.  Westbrook has leapfrogged him.  And then MAYBE Rondo takes #5, but I think John Wall takes that spot within a year.

Perk wasn't a top 10 center either.

  I think it's pretty clear that a healthy Rondo makes the big three look better than they otherwise would. The team's offense didn't look that hot when Rondo was out of the lineup and it hasn't looked too good with Rondo playing poorly.

[Marcus13]

Because he scores

[LarBrd33]

I love Rondo.  He's a lot of fun to watch when he's on.  But I dont' know if he averages 10+ assists without KG, Pierce and (mainly) Ray getting his passes.  

He really IS great.  And he's a legitimate all-star, but I don't think he's a top 5 PG.  CP and Deron are obviously the top.  Westbrook has leapfrogged him.  And then MAYBE Rondo takes #5, but I think John Wall takes that spot within a year.

Perk wasn't a top 10 center either.

  I think it's pretty clear that a healthy Rondo makes the big three look better than they otherwise would. The team's offense didn't look that hot when Rondo was out of the lineup and it hasn't looked too good with Rondo playing poorly.

He plays his role.  He makes great passes.  He fits into the system and he has great players who are capable of being efficient within that system.   He's an all-star... he's just not one of the top 5 point guards.  CP, Deron, Rose and Westbrook are better.  Nash is better right now and John Wall will be better next year.

And seriously I love both Rondo and Perk so I'm not trying to hate.  It's just a fact.  After looking at a list of centers, I'm not sure Perkins is even in the top 20.  Still love them both, though... and they fit into a championship team.

[OsirusCeltics]

Because people overvalue scoring.

I'm telling you, there has to be something with users with Paul Pierce photos, their points are always so valuable! Lol

So true. Really? So since Westbrook and Rose can both score 40 means that they are better? That has nothing to with being a point guard! Rondo PLAYS THE POINT GUARD POSITION better than any of those shooting guards camouflaging as point guards. He is only second best to Chris Paul

Derrick Rose is the leading MVP candidate because he plays for a contender and is their main go to guy for scoring.  He'll take the ball for 5-6 straight possesions down the strech if he has to (just like MJ did).  Kevin Durant got the same type of recognition last year for OKC and everyone predicted he would be future MVP.  For years that's how NBA players have been viewed in terms of value.

So because Rondo is not a scorer, the "rules" should all change now?  Too many homers on these boards that overrate guys like Rondo and Perkins.  Don't get me wrong; they certainly bring something to the table.  I'm not trying to discredit them, but when you start going league wide for comparisons you're going to find they don't always stack up favorably.  

Derrick Rose is a small forward playing point guard. I am not a "homer", I just like watching this team more than others. I like alot of other players on diff teams

Rose is not a point guard.
-Does not control tempo
-Has no court vision
-Scores 1st, Scores 2nd, Passes 3rd
-Mediocre ball handling skills
-Mediocre passing skills
-Has a usual stat line of 25 shots for 30 points. Horrible decision maker.

He's a good player but not a point guard at all...

Rondo is a better POINT GUARD. He does everything you need to play that position. Get it? And I can care less who is "better", its all an ego thing anyway. Although Rose's BBall IQ is no where near as high as Rondo