Author Topic: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?  (Read 19587 times)

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Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2011, 11:13:03 PM »

Offline Megatron

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Last year was worse, and so was his rookie year. Westbrook has upped his stats in almost every category and that is impressive but the one thing that bothers me is that he needs the ball in his hands a lot to be that effective and he is averaging taking about 17shots a game.

Westbrook needs the ball in his hands to be effective? Rondo is virtually useless without the ball.

Rondo may be the most useless player in the league without the ball.

Hes good in the pick and roll when he cuts for layups that they usually run only with KG. Outside of that defenders completely leave Rondo when he doesent have the ball. What is he going to do? Shoot a jumper? He cant. Shoot a three? He cant do that either.

Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2011, 11:17:38 PM »

Offline ejk3489

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Because hes better then Rondo.

Rondo is a top 10 point guard, the only thing Rondo does better then any of the other point guards is pass the ball.

All the rest are better shooters, scorers, penetraters, finishers, etc, the list goes on.

Rondo is good and has potential to be one of the best, but his lack of game outside of passing is starting to show and weaken his case for being a top point guard.

How are any of those guys significantly better finishers than Rondo? His FG% at the rim is 66%. In comparison to:

Westbrook: 60%
Rose: 58%
Paul: 63%
Deron: 62%

Rondo is also a better defender and rebounder than most/all of those guys.


  Yes, but if you ignore defense, rebounding, penetrating and finishing the only thing Rondo does better than those players is pass the ball. Well, maybe direct an offense and control the pace of the game, but that's it.

  And don't forget Rondo's been playing through some injuries. That means that he's a bad pg, because people haven't seen enough of him in his 4-5 years as a starter to figure out that his play is affected by his health.

Right, I forgot you should only judge a player based on whether or not they're a good jump shooter. Anything else they do is irrelevant!

Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2011, 11:20:58 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Because hes better then Rondo.

Rondo is a top 10 point guard, the only thing Rondo does better then any of the other point guards is pass the ball.

All the rest are better shooters, scorers, penetraters, finishers, etc, the list goes on.

Rondo is good and has potential to be one of the best, but his lack of game outside of passing is starting to show and weaken his case for being a top point guard.

How are any of those guys significantly better finishers than Rondo? His FG% at the rim is 66%. In comparison to:

Westbrook: 60%
Rose: 58%
Paul: 63%
Deron: 62%

Rondo is also a better defender and rebounder than most/all of those guys.


  Yes, but if you ignore defense, rebounding, penetrating and finishing the only thing Rondo does better than those players is pass the ball. Well, maybe direct an offense and control the pace of the game, but that's it.

  And don't forget Rondo's been playing through some injuries. That means that he's a bad pg, because people haven't seen enough of him in his 4-5 years as a starter to figure out that his play is affected by his health.

Right, I forgot you should only judge a player based on whether or not they're a good jump shooter. Anything else they do is irrelevant!

  Foul shooting counts too, but it's a well known fact that everybody does most of those other things as well as anyone else. They're barely considered nba skills.

Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2011, 11:26:50 PM »

Offline bballdog384

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The way I see it, when Rondo is aggressive, he is freaky aggressive. Rondo cannot afford to do this every game because he will get injured. He is saving himself for the playoffs...

Each year he steps his game up in the playoffs. He is smaller (weight-wise) than all of these other guys and gets knocked around when he goes to the hoop. It's not worth it to himself, Doc, the team, and to us for him to get beat up before the games matter much.

Maybe Rondo doesn't care about stats as much as everyone thinks. He's a winner and all that matters is ending the season on a win.
"You can't play like a robot" -Coach Stevens

Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2011, 11:32:33 PM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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The way I see it, when Rondo is aggressive, he is freaky aggressive. Rondo cannot afford to do this every game because he will get injured. He is saving himself for the playoffs...

Each year he steps his game up in the playoffs. He is smaller (weight-wise) than all of these other guys and gets knocked around when he goes to the hoop. It's not worth it to himself, Doc, the team, and to us for him to get beat up before the games matter much.

Maybe Rondo doesn't care about stats as much as everyone thinks. He's a winner and all that matters is ending the season on a win.

TP +1 Exactly

Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2011, 12:16:51 AM »

Offline LB3533

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If you switched Westbrook on to the Celtics, we would be worse off.

Likewise if you put Rondo on OKC, they'd be worse off.

The teams are what makes the players play their role.

I think Nash would average 20 assists playing for the Celtics.

Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2011, 12:43:55 AM »

Offline Reyquila

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Rondo does worry about stats. You better believe it. How many times have you seen him going alone to the basket on a breakaway and then he waits unecessarily under the basket for a fellow player to arrive so he can pass him the ball and get an easy basket. He should make a basket avery time he is alone and sure to make it. Manny times he just waits for another player to arrive so he can pass him the ball and get an assist. Assists are fine cause they mean baskets, but sometimes it is safer just to make an easy basket when one has the chance. The only logical reason for this is that he wants an assist rather than making a sure basket. He does care about stats.
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Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2011, 12:47:20 AM »

Offline ManUp

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Statistically he's a superior player. Westbrook's almost as good a defender if not the same, superior athletically, and doesn't have the gaping holes in his game Rondo does. The only thing Rondo has on him is being a more natural(pass first) point guard. Add the fact that this team basically hides Rondo's weakness and it's hard to pick Rondo over equally successful point guards with more well rounded games. The big 3 are a crutch for the weaker parts of Rondo's game right now atleast that's how the rest of the world/espn sees it.

Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2011, 12:54:52 AM »

Offline greenpride32

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Most people outside of Boston would agree with Legler; that Rondo would not be that effective without the Big Three.  Westbrook and Rose can take it to the hole strong with their own ability 1 on 1 against any defender; and sink the free throws if fouled.

Rondo can weave his way to the cup at times, but he benefits greatly from the spacing provided by the Big Three and by the fact that opponents tend to play off him since he looks to pass first, so their expectation is he will dish rather than shoot.

If you put Westbrook on a junk team, he would still get his stats.  Put Rondo on one and he would not have made any all star teams.

Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2011, 12:59:09 AM »

Offline Reyquila

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The game that scores the most points usually wins, right? Well, you add up the points a PG scores plus the points that are scored thru his assists and that should give you a clear idea of who is more effective. If a PG scores 20 points and has 15 assists, that would sum up around 20 + 30 points not counting how many points on the assists are 3 pointers. I dont know if you get an assist if the recipient of the pass is fouled and either scores 2 foul, on 1 foul or misses both. You would have to consider the total output of each PG to determine who is most effective. Assists are extremely important. of course, but scoring points anyway you can is the best. A study would have to be made of which PG today causes the most points to be scored by his team by summing up his points and the points he causes his team to score. I also grant that getting teammate involved is extremely important; that does not mean that a team should lose because a good shooting PG rather pass the ball all the time when he could have won a game with some scoring which he could have done but preferred to pass it away. The PG has to be intelligent enough to know which option is best at every particular time of the game. Thats the measure of the best PG, in my opinion.
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Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2011, 12:59:46 AM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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Rondo is a great fit for our team...he feeds the ball to the players who need it...and he's been part of a successful championship run. If win banner 18, you can bet your ass that he will be a huge part of it...I don't care about the rest.
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Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2011, 01:05:08 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Last year was worse, and so was his rookie year. Westbrook has upped his stats in almost every category and that is impressive but the one thing that bothers me is that he needs the ball in his hands a lot to be that effective and he is averaging taking about 17shots a game.

Westbrook needs the ball in his hands to be effective? Rondo is virtually useless without the ball.

Rondo may be the most useless player in the league without the ball.

Hes good in the pick and roll when he cuts for layups that they usually run only with KG. Outside of that defenders completely leave Rondo when he doesent have the ball. What is he going to do? Shoot a jumper? He cant. Shoot a three? He cant do that either.
Against the Lakers, Rondo without the ball usually means Kobe clogging the lane on defense as the Lakers dare the Celtics to give him the ball for an open jumper.

Comparing players is tough because comparisons are usually skewed towards guys who shoot more. We have so many commentators saying Melo is the best 'pure scorer' in the league, though one commentator asked why he never leads the league in 'pure scoring'.

I worry that we inflate the value of the aggressive shooters because we remember the moments when it won games and forget how it lead to losses. Look at how some have a distorted view or Ben Gordon's value. The tend to remember the minority of games where his gunning helped his team and forget the majority of games where he was a liability, probably because it is only the good games that make headlines.

I refuse to try to evaluate Rondo for another 2 years. Right now, he is one of many effective cogs in the team we have assembled. His strong playoff performances seem to indicate that he can be a more dynamic player than what we see in average regular season games.

Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2011, 01:16:53 AM »

Offline Megatron

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Last year was worse, and so was his rookie year. Westbrook has upped his stats in almost every category and that is impressive but the one thing that bothers me is that he needs the ball in his hands a lot to be that effective and he is averaging taking about 17shots a game.

Westbrook needs the ball in his hands to be effective? Rondo is virtually useless without the ball.

Rondo may be the most useless player in the league without the ball.

Hes good in the pick and roll when he cuts for layups that they usually run only with KG. Outside of that defenders completely leave Rondo when he doesent have the ball. What is he going to do? Shoot a jumper? He cant. Shoot a three? He cant do that either.
Against the Lakers, Rondo without the ball usually means Kobe clogging the lane on defense as the Lakers dare the Celtics to give him the ball for an open jumper.

Comparing players is tough because comparisons are usually skewed towards guys who shoot more. We have so many commentators saying Melo is the best 'pure scorer' in the league, though one commentator asked why he never leads the league in 'pure scoring'.

I worry that we inflate the value of the aggressive shooters because we remember the moments when it won games and forget how it lead to losses. Look at how some have a distorted view or Ben Gordon's value. The tend to remember the minority of games where his gunning helped his team and forget the majority of games where he was a liability, probably because it is only the good games that make headlines.

I refuse to try to evaluate Rondo for another 2 years. Right now, he is one of many effective cogs in the team we have assembled. His strong playoff performances seem to indicate that he can be a more dynamic player than what we see in average regular season games.

Figuring out the Lakers defense is going to be huge, we need to get around it. We cannot have Kobe leaving rondo and playing 4v5 on offense yet again, that makes it even harder for our team to score.

Rondo needs to have the ball in his hands almost 100% of time and penetrating, if hes not going to do that, we have some problems because the Laker defense immediately shifts into 5v4 and ignores Rondo, its really does become a huge problem.

I think the Bulls may employ the same strategy. Teams are figuring us out, just like teams figured our the Magic.

Leave Rondo and win. Single cover Howard and win.

Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2011, 01:18:03 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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The game that scores the most points usually wins, right? Well, you add up the points a PG scores plus the points that are scored thru his assists and that should give you a clear idea of who is more effective. If a PG scores 20 points and has 15 assists, that would sum up around 20 + 30 points not counting how many points on the assists are 3 pointers. I dont know if you get an assist if the recipient of the pass is fouled and either scores 2 foul, on 1 foul or misses both. You would have to consider the total output of each PG to determine who is most effective. Assists are extremely important. of course, but scoring points anyway you can is the best. A study would have to be made of which PG today causes the most points to be scored by his team by summing up his points and the points he causes his team to score. I also grant that getting teammate involved is extremely important; that does not mean that a team should lose because a good shooting PG rather pass the ball all the time when he could have won a game with some scoring which he could have done but preferred to pass it away. The PG has to be intelligent enough to know which option is best at every particular time of the game. Thats the measure of the best PG, in my opinion.
The devil is in the details.

It isn't clear on most baskets how much credit for that basket should be give to players involved. On a pick and roll where the player with the ball gets to the rim for a basket, shouldn't the player who set the good pick get some credit? If a player gets an offensive rebound and then quickly finds an open teammate underneath, should most of the credit for those points go to the offensive rebounder who essentially game his teammate a freebie? If KG steal the ball and then tosses it ahead to Ray for an open layup, wasn't Ray's role in that offense trivial compared to KG's?

If a player gets a lot of assists because they make a lot of risky passes and many of those passes and up as turnovers, that also needs to be considered. Who do we fault for failed attempts at scoring?

There really is no quantitative method to measure this. The only way to evaluate this would be to have graders watch video and give scores to players, a very subjective method.

Re: Why Do People Consider Westbrook to Be Better Than Rondo?
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2011, 01:51:56 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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Westbrook can carry a team on a nightly basis; he has a much more well rounded game and he is even more freakish athletically.


Rondo is certainly capable of playing like the best point guard in the league, far better than Westbrook or Rose.  However, he can't come close to playing like that every night because he would simply wear himself out within a week or two.

Until Rondo develops the rest of his game so that he can take over the game without sacrificing his body (and perhaps filling out a bit more muscularly so he can get by more with strength and using his body instead of just his quickness), he won't be able to come close to playing on that level except once in a while or 2-3 game stretches in the post-season.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 01:59:50 AM by PosImpos »
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