Author Topic: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)  (Read 413176 times)

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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1155 on: August 21, 2017, 10:10:47 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits?  All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?
Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57100/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall/
After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die.  So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei. 
Not sure what they expect of Cersei anyway.  Can't see her letting her remaining troops go north.  Can't see her giving them wildfire.  Unless of course, there is some way for her to turn it to her advantage. 

Another point is why did the Walkers just sit there waiting.  They could have used those ice spears to take out Jon and his crew.  Did they know the dragons would come? 

Also why would Sansa send Brienne south?  She'd just had a conversation with Littlefinger about Brienne defending Sansa if Arya threatened her. 
hey now, let's not think too logically about this. ;)

1.  good point on the having someone already dead that they could have used.  My wife and I wondered something very similar when we saw it.

2. I figured the walkers were held back due to so many falling through the ice.  of course I wondered why the ice was that thin when it's constantly freezing there.  the fact it firmed up within a short time where it could support the dead on their second rush made no sense.  also, once the Hound broke the ice with the hammer, why didn't he break more ice to limit the access points to the rock for the dead?  would have been really helpful for them.  also, if he could break the ice with one swing, how was it strong enough to support that many dead?

3. sending Brienne away made no sense at all.  Arya falling for Littlefinger's ploy the past 2 shows has made no sense either.  keep waiting for Arya to just end Littlefinger but inexplicably she's left him alone.

also still trying to understand why Dany didn't fly back to Dragonstone rather than take a boat.  will take exceedingly long considering this whole excursion required expediency to get Cersei's assistance.

I thought the rationale for sending Brienne away was because she'd protect Arya. Between the sparring session with Arya and Brienne and Arya being a "miniature" Brienne in terms of character (female out of her element), I thought they were hinting that she was sending Brienne away so that she couldn't protect Arya, since she'd more than likely take Arya's side over Sansa's, especially if Arya was outmatched.

Granted, I'm still not falling for it. I still think Arya and Sansa are playing Littlefinger instead of falling into his trap. Sansa regularly talks about how untrustworthy Littlefinger is, and Arya is as sneaky and clever as they come now after her Faceless Man training. It doesn't seem like they'd both fall for it.

That would also be fairly poetic if Littlefinger ultimately met his demise via one of his shady plans being turned around on him.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1156 on: August 21, 2017, 10:38:11 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits?  All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?
Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57100/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall/
After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die.  So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei. 

They don't just come back automatically like a zombie movie, they need a White Walker to raise them. And I think all the redshirt guys just disappeared when they died.  :D

Quote
Another point is why did the Walkers just sit there waiting.  They could have used those ice spears to take out Jon and his crew.  Did they know the dragons would come? 

No idea but they may be limited/difficult to make. My question on this was why the Night King has the biggest dragon, swarming with main characters, completely still with its broadside to him and goes after a flying one that's farther away.


Quote
Also why would Sansa send Brienne south?  She'd just had a conversation with Littlefinger about Brienne defending Sansa if Arya threatened her.

This was weird too since they made a point of Littlefinger trying to use her to drive a wedge between the Starks. Feels like they had to cut something out.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1157 on: August 21, 2017, 10:49:08 PM »

Offline Redz

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Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits?  All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?
Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57100/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall/
After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die.  So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei. 
Not sure what they expect of Cersei anyway.  Can't see her letting her remaining troops go north.  Can't see her giving them wildfire.  Unless of course, there is some way for her to turn it to her advantage. 

Another point is why did the Walkers just sit there waiting.  They could have used those ice spears to take out Jon and his crew.  Did they know the dragons would come? 

Also why would Sansa send Brienne south?  She'd just had a conversation with Littlefinger about Brienne defending Sansa if Arya threatened her. 
hey now, let's not think too logically about this. ;)

1.  good point on the having someone already dead that they could have used.  My wife and I wondered something very similar when we saw it.

2. I figured the walkers were held back due to so many falling through the ice.  of course I wondered why the ice was that thin when it's constantly freezing there.  the fact it firmed up within a short time where it could support the dead on their second rush made no sense.  also, once the Hound broke the ice with the hammer, why didn't he break more ice to limit the access points to the rock for the dead?  would have been really helpful for them.  also, if he could break the ice with one swing, how was it strong enough to support that many dead?

3. sending Brienne away made no sense at all.  Arya falling for Littlefinger's ploy the past 2 shows has made no sense either.  keep waiting for Arya to just end Littlefinger but inexplicably she's left him alone.

also still trying to understand why Dany didn't fly back to Dragonstone rather than take a boat.  will take exceedingly long considering this whole excursion required expediency to get Cersei's assistance.

I thought the rationale for sending Brienne away was because she'd protect Arya. Between the sparring session with Arya and Brienne and Arya being a "miniature" Brienne in terms of character (female out of her element), I thought they were hinting that she was sending Brienne away so that she couldn't protect Arya, since she'd more than likely take Arya's side over Sansa's, especially if Arya was outmatched.

Granted, I'm still not falling for it. I still think Arya and Sansa are playing Littlefinger instead of falling into his trap. Sansa regularly talks about how untrustworthy Littlefinger is, and Arya is as sneaky and clever as they come now after her Faceless Man training. It doesn't seem like they'd both fall for it.

That would also be fairly poetic if Littlefinger ultimately met his demise via one of his shady plans being turned around on him.

For a minute I was thinking maybe Arya had made herself into Littlefinger and was testing Sansa to see how she'd respond to the idea of sending Brienne away.  Didn't make much sense, but who the heck knows anymore.
Yup

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1158 on: August 21, 2017, 11:02:29 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits?  All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?
Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57100/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall/
After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die.  So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei. 

They don't just come back automatically like a zombie movie, they need a White Walker to raise them. And I think all the redshirt guys just disappeared when they died.  :D

What about the initial two that attacked Mormont at Castle Black?  No White Walker was around to raise them.   

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1159 on: August 22, 2017, 12:11:32 AM »

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After the episode aired, fans vented frustrations online that Gendry running back to Eas****ch, sending a raven to Daenerys, and Daenerys arriving to save the day with her dragons all happened far too quickly. Alan Taylor, who directed “Beyond the Wall,” explained how the production team approached the timeline during filming.

“We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy,” Taylor told Variety. “We’ve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance…In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn’t. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the story’s momentum carries over some of that stuff.”

“It’s cool that the show is so important to so many people that it’s being scrutinized so thoroughly,” he continued. “If the show was struggling, I’d be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so it’s OK to have people with those concerns.”

In other words, "Sure it's bad storytelling, but ratings are what matter".


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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1160 on: August 22, 2017, 06:40:26 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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The dead don't just spontaneously rise north of the Wall. A White Walker needs to be around to raise them.

Then why do they burn their dead?  I am pretty sure the book says it is to prevent them from rising.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1161 on: August 22, 2017, 08:26:26 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The dead don't just spontaneously rise north of the Wall. A White Walker needs to be around to raise them.

Then why do they burn their dead?  I am pretty sure the book says it is to prevent them from rising.
so a white walker doesn't raise them.  They can be raised at pretty much any point in time as long as they aren't burned.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1162 on: August 22, 2017, 08:38:11 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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After the episode aired, fans vented frustrations online that Gendry running back to Eas****ch, sending a raven to Daenerys, and Daenerys arriving to save the day with her dragons all happened far too quickly. Alan Taylor, who directed “Beyond the Wall,” explained how the production team approached the timeline during filming.

“We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy,” Taylor told Variety. “We’ve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance…In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn’t. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the story’s momentum carries over some of that stuff.”

“It’s cool that the show is so important to so many people that it’s being scrutinized so thoroughly,” he continued. “If the show was struggling, I’d be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so it’s OK to have people with those concerns.”

In other words, "Sure it's bad storytelling, but ratings are what matter".
yup, pretty accurate summation.

I think that was probably the biggest disappointment in the story was that it was obvious for the past couple of episodes that Dany would bring the dragons north of the wall to support/save Jon.  the timing was just awful in how it came about.  also, that last-second save of Jon again and the sacrifice made (why didn't they both just ride off?) made no sense.

I still like the show but the plot/storyline has been of a lower quality than when the series was following or parallel to the books.   they should have taken the time to make the last 2 seasons full seasons instead of short ones so that they could plot everything out in a smarter manner and more realistically timewise (in Westeros time).

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1163 on: August 22, 2017, 09:30:51 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits?  All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?
Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57100/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall/
After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die.  So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei. 

They don't just come back automatically like a zombie movie, they need a White Walker to raise them. And I think all the redshirt guys just disappeared when they died.  :D

What about the initial two that attacked Mormont at Castle Black?  No White Walker was around to raise them.   

You're right - at least not that we know of but the White Walkers are usually very conspicuous. I suppose they could've rezzed them earlier and forced them to stay still until night, but that one doesn't fit with the rest we've seen so far.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1164 on: August 22, 2017, 09:41:08 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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After the episode aired, fans vented frustrations online that Gendry running back to Eas****ch, sending a raven to Daenerys, and Daenerys arriving to save the day with her dragons all happened far too quickly. Alan Taylor, who directed “Beyond the Wall,” explained how the production team approached the timeline during filming.

“We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy,” Taylor told Variety. “We’ve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance…In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn’t. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the story’s momentum carries over some of that stuff.”

“It’s cool that the show is so important to so many people that it’s being scrutinized so thoroughly,” he continued. “If the show was struggling, I’d be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so it’s OK to have people with those concerns.”

In other words, "Sure it's bad storytelling, but ratings are what matter".
yup, pretty accurate summation.

I think that was probably the biggest disappointment in the story was that it was obvious for the past couple of episodes that Dany would bring the dragons north of the wall to support/save Jon.  the timing was just awful in how it came about.  also, that last-second save of Jon again and the sacrifice made (why didn't they both just ride off?) made no sense.

The entire Superfriends Wight Walk thing was very dumb and very rushed. Wasn't it just midway through last episode that Jon decided to go get a wight in the first place?

It also would've made more sense for Rhaegon to double back and get Jon - we've already seen the dragons respond to him - than the goofy Benjen save.  Would've made surviving hypothermia more plausible too.

I think 10 episodes would've made more sense story-wise too, but I think it's a budget issue more than a story choice. All those CGI dragon battles aren't cheap.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1165 on: August 22, 2017, 09:49:36 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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- He wargs dead things on an immense scale.

He reanimates them, I think rather than warg.

The show amounts to fan fiction at this point in terms of writing.   The rapid raven was beyond silly, they are just trying to finish it not be the same quality.
I was under the impression that the Great Other raises them he then wargs them.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1166 on: August 22, 2017, 09:53:24 AM »

Offline Moranis

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After the episode aired, fans vented frustrations online that Gendry running back to Eas****ch, sending a raven to Daenerys, and Daenerys arriving to save the day with her dragons all happened far too quickly. Alan Taylor, who directed “Beyond the Wall,” explained how the production team approached the timeline during filming.

“We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy,” Taylor told Variety. “We’ve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance…In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn’t. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the story’s momentum carries over some of that stuff.”

“It’s cool that the show is so important to so many people that it’s being scrutinized so thoroughly,” he continued. “If the show was struggling, I’d be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so it’s OK to have people with those concerns.”

In other words, "Sure it's bad storytelling, but ratings are what matter".
yup, pretty accurate summation.

I think that was probably the biggest disappointment in the story was that it was obvious for the past couple of episodes that Dany would bring the dragons north of the wall to support/save Jon.  the timing was just awful in how it came about.  also, that last-second save of Jon again and the sacrifice made (why didn't they both just ride off?) made no sense.

The entire Superfriends Wight Walk thing was very dumb and very rushed. Wasn't it just midway through last episode that Jon decided to go get a wight in the first place?

It also would've made more sense for Rhaegon to double back and get Jon - we've already seen the dragons respond to him - than the goofy Benjen save.  Would've made surviving hypothermia more plausible too.

I think 10 episodes would've made more sense story-wise too, but I think it's a budget issue more than a story choice. All those CGI dragon battles aren't cheap.
But, if they extended the season to 10 episodes a lot of the extra stuff wouldn't have been the expensive CGI stuff.  It could have been a lot more plot development, good character conversations, etc.  For example, the whole Gendry running, raven, dragons coming thing could have been spread out over 2 episodes with other scenes elsewhere showing the time lapse.  Like they could have had a scene at Eas****ch where they sent a raven to Winterfell to let them know Jon and others were going north of the wall.  They then could have had a scene at Winterfell with Arya, Sansa, and Bran discussing the stupidity of that plan (or whatever).  They could have also shown the motley crew doing a lot more things, having conversations, etc. for a lot longer to really show how long they were on that island.  They clearly tried to do it, but the rushed nature of it led to it not looking very long.  They also could have had some set up conversations about how fast ravens and dragons actually fly.  It might have been only a day for a raven and a couple of hours for the dragons, but they just never set any of that stuff up so it looks ridiculous as filmed when it certainly all could have been plausible with 10 to 15 extra minutes of filming.  And none of that stuff requires much in the way of budget. 
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1167 on: August 22, 2017, 10:10:52 AM »

Offline jaketwice

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After the episode aired, fans vented frustrations online that Gendry running back to Eas****ch, sending a raven to Daenerys, and Daenerys arriving to save the day with her dragons all happened far too quickly. Alan Taylor, who directed “Beyond the Wall,” explained how the production team approached the timeline during filming.

“We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy,” Taylor told Variety. “We’ve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance…In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn’t. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the story’s momentum carries over some of that stuff.”

“It’s cool that the show is so important to so many people that it’s being scrutinized so thoroughly,” he continued. “If the show was struggling, I’d be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so it’s OK to have people with those concerns.”

In other words, "Sure it's bad storytelling, but ratings are what matter".

If you look at a map of Westeros, it seems like Dragonstone is a lot closer to Eas****ch than Highgarden. To me, that was way more unbelievable. They would've had to take the Dothraki to Highgarden (or along the road to King's Landing) in boats, right?  How could they get to Highgarden without sailing ALL THE WAY around Dorne (the bottom of the continent) and then getting off the boats and riding to wherever the loot train was.

At least Eas****ch to Dragonstone would've been as the crow (or Raven, or Dragon) flies. But I agree there are some problems. If they're going 100 miles an hour, how is she hanging on to the dragon without any kind of saddle?

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1168 on: August 22, 2017, 10:13:12 AM »

Offline jaketwice

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Here's another question: why is she on a boat with John at the end of the episode? Wouldn't she be riding the dragon back? Is she just "so into him"? After what happened to Theon, isn't it kind of dangerous for her to be on a boat?

I mean, questioning the believability of travel distances in a show about dragons and zombies and white walkers seems  a little silly - but part of what has made it a fun show is that, under the circumstances, it seems pretty believable.

I agree the whole Joss Wheadon "Superfriends walk to the north" was pretty rushed.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1169 on: August 22, 2017, 10:55:45 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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You're right - at least not that we know of but the White Walkers are usually very conspicuous. I suppose they could've rezzed them earlier and forced them to stay still until night, but that one doesn't fit with the rest we've seen so far.
I thought wights were supposed to be nocturnal to begin with.
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