Sources: Carmelo 4 way trade in talks

[pearljammer10]

Who,

Are you kidding me?  Charlotte will be lucky to win 40 with Devin.  He is a horrible shooter and NOT a 3-point threat.  He is young, but has only averaged 68 games over his young career.  He is VERY skinny and NOT a good defender.  He is about the same level as Felton, but not a prime time late game player like Raymond was for the Bobcats.  Add to that the fact that they will lose the over 4 assists that Diaw averaged.  Diaw is a very high IQ player.  They will be replacing Diaw and his heady game with a physically talented head case in Tyrus Thomas.  Talented, yes, but an explosion waiting to happen.  I now see Charlotte as a rather low IQ team outside of Gerald Wallace.

I simply could not disagree with you more.

Smitty77

I agree to some extent that Who is probably overrating Devin Harris a little bit, but I also think you may be underrating him somewhat.  He's got very good defensive instincts, and has been a very good defender in the past.  In NJ, he took on more of a lead scoring role, and his D suffered because of it.  Under Larry Brown, I think he'll be one of the better defensive PGs in the league.  Also, he's not a truly gifted passer, but he's adequate.  I'd say he's on Felton's level in terms of passing -- maybe a little better.  Obviously, he's a much better scorer, and he's one guy on Charlotte who can create offense for himself consistently.

If they play up to their potential, Harris + Jackson + Wallace can lock teams down, which is a pretty good base for a playoff team.

Gotta go with Roy on this one. Harris makes the Bobcats a better more dangerous team. Yes he is young and still has a lot to prove and learn, but with Harris, Wallace, and Jackson and their starting 1,2,3 they arent going to be a team I will look forward to playing.

Add Tyrus Thomas to the starting four spot and add Nazr Mohomed to the list and they have a great defensive starting 5 that can put up points and run teams out of the building. Their bench needs a couple more pieces but the front line of Diop and Brown could surprise people and Augustin being the first guard of the pine is pretty good. If they make this trade it just adds another great Eastern team to the mix. I would expect them to fight for home court advantage with the Hawks and Bucks, ultimately falling into the 6th slot.

[BballTim]

Who,

Are you kidding me?  Charlotte will be lucky to win 40 with Devin.  He is a horrible shooter and NOT a 3-point threat.  He is young, but has only averaged 68 games over his young career.  He is VERY skinny and NOT a good defender.  He is about the same level as Felton, but not a prime time late game player like Raymond was for the Bobcats.  Add to that the fact that they will lose the over 4 assists that Diaw averaged.  Diaw is a very high IQ player.  They will be replacing Diaw and his heady game with a physically talented head case in Tyrus Thomas.  Talented, yes, but an explosion waiting to happen.  I now see Charlotte as a rather low IQ team outside of Gerald Wallace.

I simply could not disagree with you more.

Smitty77

I agree to some extent that Who is probably overrating Devin Harris a little bit, but I also think you may be underrating him somewhat.  He's got very good defensive instincts, and has been a very good defender in the past.  In NJ, he took on more of a lead scoring role, and his D suffered because of it.  Under Larry Brown, I think he'll be one of the better defensive PGs in the league.  Also, he's not a truly gifted passer, but he's adequate.  I'd say he's on Felton's level in terms of passing -- maybe a little better.  Obviously, he's a much better scorer, and he's one guy on Charlotte who can create offense for himself consistently.

If they play up to their potential, Harris + Jackson + Wallace can lock teams down, which is a pretty good base for a playoff team.

Gotta go with Roy on this one. Harris makes the Bobcats a better more dangerous team. Yes he is young and still has a lot to prove and learn, but with Harris, Wallace, and Jackson and their starting 1,2,3 they arent going to be a team I will look forward to playing.

  Harris is 27 and has played 6 seasons thus far. I don't think that really qualifies as young.

[Smitty77]

Pearljam,

Don't forget that they will be giving up Diop in this trade.

Does anyone want to bet me some money if this trade occurs that Charlotte will NOT win 50 games??  PLEASE:-)))

Smitty77

[Finkelskyhook]

 Harris is 27 and has played 6 seasons thus far. I don't think that really qualifies as young.

LOL   By what standard?

[xmuscularghandix]

If this deal is made its places this as one of dumbiest moves of the decade.A team should never let a player of this caliber go,if they are trying to win a championship.This tells me the Nuggets are giving up on winning anytime soon.You do not trade or give up on trying to hold onto a player of Melo ability,they are to hard to come by in this league.(imo)

I don’t think you totally grasp the situation, Carmelo didn’t sign his extension... that means that he’s leaving after this season. If Denver doesn’t move him for something now they end up screwed, just like Cleveland and Toronto.

[BballTim]

Harris is 27 and has played 6 seasons thus far. I don't think that really qualifies as young.

LOL   By what standard?

  Haha. Even by basketball standards, it's iffy. If you compare him to 4 of our starters, he's pretty spry. But I don't think that, three seasons from now, people will be referring to Rondo as a young point guard with a lot to learn.

[snively]

The only reason I can think of for Utah is to get below the luxury tax threshold (about $5-6 million over).

I don't think that is worth the extra year on Diaw's contract ($9 million) + the talent drop off from Diaw to Kirilenko ... but who knows, maybe they do.

Still seems strange though, you'd expect Utah to get a better fit for their roster than Diaw (a legit wing or defensive C) + unless Denver are ridding themselves of another bad contract I don't see why they want to pay Kirilenko $17 million instead of T.Murphy's $12 million.

The Nuggets have major payroll issues themselves ... they are over the LTT by about $12 million already + the money they'd be taking on in this deal (another $4 million?). Why such a large payroll for a team entering rebuilding? From an owner who has been hesitant to increase spending in recent years?

It actually sounds a lot like a Utah trade.  Swapping AK for Diaw fits right in with dumping Brewer and Maynor.

I think Denver is thinking more in basketball terms.  If they added Murphy, they'd have K-Mart, Murphy, Harrington, Favors and Williams at the 4 spot and Renaldo Balkman as the only real 3 on the roster. They'd rather pay 17 mil for a starting 3 than 12 mil for a 5th power forward.

I'm not sure I'm a fan from the Nets perspective.  Melo's a ball-hog assassin, best suited for a great defensive team.  The Nets don't look that great defensively.

The Bobcats would get a big upgrade if Harris returns to defensive form.  Harris-Jackson-Wallace-Thomas could be tremendous defensively.  Definitely problematic offensively though.

[More Banners]

If this deal is made its places this as one of dumbiest moves of the decade.A team should never let a player of this caliber go,if they are trying to win a championship.This tells me the Nuggets are giving up on winning anytime soon.You do not trade or give up on trying to hold onto a player of Melo ability,they are to hard to come by in this league.(imo)

I don’t think you totally grasp the situation, Carmelo didn’t sign his extension... that means that he’s leaving after this season. If Denver doesn’t move him for something now they end up screwed, just like Cleveland and Toronto.

My take is this:  I'd pull Melo aside and let him know that the team is poised to make a run this season, that they've added bench firepower in Harrington and are a legit contender right now.  Then, I'd tell him to shut up and earn his guaranteed money this year on the contract he voluntarily signed.  I'd invite him to sign an extension, but if he doesn't, fine.  Winning this year will only increase his value anyway, so shut up and play.

The last thing I would do is trade him for any longer contracts.  If he walks, fine.  Denver becomes one more team (like Boston) that isn't all tied up with long-term committments heading into negotiations on the new CBA...which means they (along with Boston) are in a stronger negotiating position in the CBA talks.

Then, Denver ownership can form an alliance with Wyc and Boston's ownership, along with other teams with few salary committments beyond 2012, and only support a CBA that makes it impossible for Miami to maintain a team with enough talent and depth to win due to their three near-max guys and few draft picks over the next 8 years or whatever (they traded away 4 1st rounders, right? 2 for LeBra and 2 for Bosh?  That's a pick every other year for 8 years?).

Come on, Denver.  Stick it to the Lakers this year, and to Miami (and whatever superteam Melo wants to form) for the next decade...

[Who]

Devin Harris is a much better than Raymond Felton. He is a legitimate 17-20ppg threat and one of the most capable defensive PGs in the league.

The perimeter combination of D.Harris, S-Jackson, G-Wallace will be very difficult for teams across the league to matchup against. Their defense, their athleticism, their scoring punch. That is a lot of quality. Tyrus Thomas is solid PF too. A very nice core to build the rest of the roster around. A good improvement over their starters 1-4 last season when the Bobcats won 44 games.

Also, Larry Brown is one of the finest coaches in the league when it comes to developing point guards. Particularly their decision making and ability to run an offense. He can have a very large effect on Devin Harris over the next 12-24 months and improve him considerably as floor general.

Harris will also have Stephen Jackson who is an excellent ball-handler and very good passer on the wings to help take some of the playmaking off his plate. Which will free Harris up to be a scorer a lot like Vince did in NJ. Adding that offensive punch to the Nets cranks them up a tier from the 42-45 win range to a legitimate high 40s team (47-50 wins).

[Smitty77]

Who,

Once again, I couldn't disagree more on several fronts.  Raymond is a slightly better defender, due to his strength.  Harris is very lean and can easily get posted up.  Raymond is a better (but streaky) 3 point threat.  I am NOT a UNC fan adn NOT a Charlotte fan, despite living in NC about 30m from Charlotte.  However, I have learned that Felton is a prime time clutch player.  He is VERY average most of the game, but in the last two minutes, he has "IT."  He wants the ball and will usually, more than not, hit the clutch shot or get fouled and hit the FT's.  I am an NC State fan and that is NOT easy to admit my friend!!!

So, you are telling me that Charlotte is a better team without Felton, Diaw, and possibly Augustine and with Harris.  They were already horribly weak off the bench, and now they will be even thinner.  They have a gapping hole at the center position with an old and undersized Nazr trying to man the middle.  They do NOT have a physical presence on the low block.

I simply cannot see how you can see close to 50 wins with that.  Are you a MJ worshipper or what??:-)))

Smitty77

[Vermont Green]

It seems hard to imagine any 4-team trade could work out so that all 4 teams got better.  I think it even defies the second law of thermodynamics (entropy of the universe).  I think this is easy for NJ.  They really got nothing right now (almost set the record for most losses) so why not grab Melo.  Harris fluctuates between solid and pretty good (so he isn't going to change the franchise) and Favors is just a rookie so who knows; maybe the next Karl Malone, maybe not.

For B-Cats, a solid to pretty good PG is still an upgrade for them and they have the depth so that loosing Diaw is no big deal.  Utah and Denver are not getting better on the court probably but they have other legitimate motivations.  Getting Favors, AK47 and picks for Melo isn't bad.  It's a time will tell thing.  They are assuming the risk that comes with rookies and draft picks but it is better than nothing.  They are going to have to be awfully lucking if Favors or one of the picks ends up better than Melo but this is a lot better than some other scenarios they could be faced with.

Utah probably took a few baby steps backwards on the court but they save something like $8Mx2 (tax) this year.  It is too bad all decisions can't be made based on the product you put on the court but that is what it is.  I think this one is partly (probably mostly) money and partly they really don't like AK47.

I think it is fun.  I hope it goes through.

[Roy H.]

Pearljam,

Don't forget that they will be giving up Diop in this trade.

Does anyone want to bet me some money if this trade occurs that Charlotte will NOT win 50 games??  PLEASE:-)))

Smitty77

They'll win more games than they would have before the trade, though, right?  Whether or not this move makes them contenders, they're still better than they were.

[Smitty77]

I don't necessarily think so Roy.  They lost Felton for nothing and now they are losing Diaw and possibly D.J.  They had virtually NO bench before that.  Now they virtually might have the WORST bench in the NBA.  GWall is injury prone due to his playing style.  Tyrus is a head case.  Jackson is 32 and you saw him breaking down in the playoffs last year and playing horribly in the Orlando series.  They will ALL have to play MAJOR minutes due to NOT having a bench.  Injuries will happen due to that fact.

Oh, I forgot.  They did sign the walking injury factory, Livingston.  He could help IF he can stay healthy.

Smitty77

[Roy H.]

Devin Harris is a much better than Raymond Felton. He is a legitimate 17-20ppg threat and one of the most capable defensive PGs in the league.

The perimeter combination of D.Harris, S-Jackson, G-Wallace will be very difficult for teams across the league to matchup against. Their defense, their athleticism, their scoring punch. That is a lot of quality. Tyrus Thomas is solid PF too. A very nice core to build the rest of the roster around. A good improvement over their starters 1-4 last season when the Bobcats won 44 games.

Also, Larry Brown is one of the finest coaches in the league when it comes to developing point guards. Particularly their decision making and ability to run an offense. He can have a very large effect on Devin Harris over the next 12-24 months and improve him considerably as floor general.

Harris will also have Stephen Jackson who is an excellent ball-handler and very good passer on the wings to help take some of the playmaking off his plate. Which will free Harris up to be a scorer a lot like Vince did in NJ. Adding that offensive punch to the Nets cranks them up a tier from the 42-45 win range to a legitimate high 40s team (47-50 wins).

The only two questions I have are 1) will Harris play better defense than in NJ, and 2) will the addition of Harris alone be enough to make up for Felton and Diaw.

In answer to the first question, I think clearly yes.  Harris has shown very strong defense in the past.  He didn't put in quite the same amount of effort in recent years, but I think that Brown will get the most out of him.

The second question is more tricky.  Clearly, Harris is worth more than Diaw, and he's a step above Felton as a total player.  He's probably worth more than both combined, but I'm not sure that he's worth so much more that he'll add 3 to 6 wins by himself, at least not immediately.

Still, Felton is already gone; he's not part of this trade.  Any way you slice it, Charlotte would be a better team the day this trade went through.

[Roy H.]

I don't necessarily think so Roy.  They lost Felton for nothing and now they are losing Diaw and possibly D.J.  They had virtually NO bench before that.  Now they virtually might have the WORST bench in the NBA.  GWall is injury prone due to his playing style.  Tyrus is a head case.  Jackson is 32 and you saw him breaking down in the playoffs last year and playing horribly in the Orlando series.  They will ALL have to play MAJOR minutes due to NOT having a bench.  Injuries will happen due to that fact.

Oh, I forgot.  They did sign the walking injury factory, Livingston.  He could help IF he can stay healthy.

Smitty77

Yeah, but should this trade be evaluated regarding the rest of the off-season?  I mean, losing Felton happened, and is in the past.  The question becomes, would they be better than they are right now if they acquired Harris.  I think they would be.

Maybe I'm underestimating Diaw, but I think Harris is a higher class of talent.