Barkley going after James...again!!

[Snakehead]

Snakehead doesn't MIA have a forum?  If LeBron quit walking I don't want to say what would happen to you, lol.  I give you one thing you got his back and have about every excuse under the sun ready to cover it.

None of your arguments can convince me he isn't vastly over rated and lacks heart.  I lived in Ohio since 68' moved in '10.  I 've seen his high school games live have you?   I seen him play at the Q have you?   I 've seen his body langauge that the TV doesn't show.  Have you?   I have to pay for NBA pass to see my Celtics but I got to see Queen James for free all the time.   

I think this guy has about as much will to win as a sloth.  He is soft and weak.   I used to play a guy with a mindset just like him.  Oh, he was all state this and that and averaged 36 points a game in High School but he never ever beat me once, on the court because he was a mental wuss.  At the park, in the gym, I know how to get into his head and beat him and get him off his game.   The big things LeBron lack is killer instinct and a will to win, athletically he is off the board.  His skills aside from his shooting are phoenomenal ( he is a mediocre to slightly above average shooter at best).  Toughness is innate, you can't fake it or pretend your tough because a real tough guy is going to test you.

Wade is tough and will not give up.  I seen him will a team to beat Dallas in the finals.  Bosh and LeBron are not.  I think PP will whip on him again, we know Bosh is owned by KG and Allen is a good foil for Wade.

I actually lived just outside Cleveland up until 3 years ago, when I moved back to Mass, and I did see him play in high school AND at the Q.  I lived in Valley View, just outside Cleveland and not far from Akron.  I watched the Cavs when they were terrible, when Fat Shawn Kemp came there and later when the best player was Darius Miles, and then up until the LBJ years.  Thanks though.

  I hate to break this to you guys but some of LeBron's HS games were on espn. My son, who was in grade school at the time, had seen some of LeBron's games. When we went to Test Track at disney he wanted to get his picture taken in the Hummer they had on display "just like LeBron did".

  I saw quite a few of Larry Bird's regular season college games on tv, btw.

Lol, your son must be quite a hoops fan.

Yeah you're right, they were on TV his senior year.  My point was only in response, that he assumed I'd never seen LBJ in person when in fact I had in every situation he assumed I had not. And I come to none of the same conclusions of him as a quitter or not caring.

[BballTim]

Snakehead doesn't MIA have a forum?  If LeBron quit walking I don't want to say what would happen to you, lol.  I give you one thing you got his back and have about every excuse under the sun ready to cover it.

None of your arguments can convince me he isn't vastly over rated and lacks heart.  I lived in Ohio since 68' moved in '10.  I 've seen his high school games live have you?   I seen him play at the Q have you?   I 've seen his body langauge that the TV doesn't show.  Have you?   I have to pay for NBA pass to see my Celtics but I got to see Queen James for free all the time.   

I think this guy has about as much will to win as a sloth.  He is soft and weak.   I used to play a guy with a mindset just like him.  Oh, he was all state this and that and averaged 36 points a game in High School but he never ever beat me once, on the court because he was a mental wuss.  At the park, in the gym, I know how to get into his head and beat him and get him off his game.   The big things LeBron lack is killer instinct and a will to win, athletically he is off the board.  His skills aside from his shooting are phoenomenal ( he is a mediocre to slightly above average shooter at best).  Toughness is innate, you can't fake it or pretend your tough because a real tough guy is going to test you.

Wade is tough and will not give up.  I seen him will a team to beat Dallas in the finals.  Bosh and LeBron are not.  I think PP will whip on him again, we know Bosh is owned by KG and Allen is a good foil for Wade.

I actually lived just outside Cleveland up until 3 years ago, when I moved back to Mass, and I did see him play in high school AND at the Q.  I lived in Valley View, just outside Cleveland and not far from Akron.  I watched the Cavs when they were terrible, when Fat Shawn Kemp came there and later when the best player was Darius Miles, and then up until the LBJ years.  Thanks though.

  I hate to break this to you guys but some of LeBron's HS games were on espn. My son, who was in grade school at the time, had seen some of LeBron's games. When we went to Test Track at disney he wanted to get his picture taken in the Hummer they had on display "just like LeBron did".

  I saw quite a few of Larry Bird's regular season college games on tv, btw.

Lol, your son must be quite a hoops fan.

Yeah you're right, they were on TV his senior year.  My point was only in response, that he assumed I'd never seen LBJ in person when in fact I had in every situation he assumed I had not. And I come to none of the same conclusions of him as a quitter or not caring.

  Part hoops fan, part espn junkie. He used to watch sportscenter 2-3 times in a row some days. You can only imagine the steady dose of "LeBron" he was getting.

[Snakehead]

Snakehead doesn't MIA have a forum?  If LeBron quit walking I don't want to say what would happen to you, lol.  I give you one thing you got his back and have about every excuse under the sun ready to cover it.

None of your arguments can convince me he isn't vastly over rated and lacks heart.  I lived in Ohio since 68' moved in '10.  I 've seen his high school games live have you?   I seen him play at the Q have you?   I 've seen his body langauge that the TV doesn't show.  Have you?   I have to pay for NBA pass to see my Celtics but I got to see Queen James for free all the time.   

I think this guy has about as much will to win as a sloth.  He is soft and weak.   I used to play a guy with a mindset just like him.  Oh, he was all state this and that and averaged 36 points a game in High School but he never ever beat me once, on the court because he was a mental wuss.  At the park, in the gym, I know how to get into his head and beat him and get him off his game.   The big things LeBron lack is killer instinct and a will to win, athletically he is off the board.  His skills aside from his shooting are phoenomenal ( he is a mediocre to slightly above average shooter at best).  Toughness is innate, you can't fake it or pretend your tough because a real tough guy is going to test you.

Wade is tough and will not give up.  I seen him will a team to beat Dallas in the finals.  Bosh and LeBron are not.  I think PP will whip on him again, we know Bosh is owned by KG and Allen is a good foil for Wade.

I actually lived just outside Cleveland up until 3 years ago, when I moved back to Mass, and I did see him play in high school AND at the Q.  I lived in Valley View, just outside Cleveland and not far from Akron.  I watched the Cavs when they were terrible, when Fat Shawn Kemp came there and later when the best player was Darius Miles, and then up until the LBJ years.  Thanks though.

  I hate to break this to you guys but some of LeBron's HS games were on espn. My son, who was in grade school at the time, had seen some of LeBron's games. When we went to Test Track at disney he wanted to get his picture taken in the Hummer they had on display "just like LeBron did".

  I saw quite a few of Larry Bird's regular season college games on tv, btw.

Lol, your son must be quite a hoops fan.

Yeah you're right, they were on TV his senior year.  My point was only in response, that he assumed I'd never seen LBJ in person when in fact I had in every situation he assumed I had not. And I come to none of the same conclusions of him as a quitter or not caring.

  Part hoops fan, part espn junkie. He used to watch sportscenter 2-3 times in a row some days. You can only imagine the steady dose of "LeBron" he was getting.

Must be a huge Favre fan too 

[BballTim]

Snakehead doesn't MIA have a forum?  If LeBron quit walking I don't want to say what would happen to you, lol.  I give you one thing you got his back and have about every excuse under the sun ready to cover it.

None of your arguments can convince me he isn't vastly over rated and lacks heart.  I lived in Ohio since 68' moved in '10.  I 've seen his high school games live have you?   I seen him play at the Q have you?   I 've seen his body langauge that the TV doesn't show.  Have you?   I have to pay for NBA pass to see my Celtics but I got to see Queen James for free all the time.   

I think this guy has about as much will to win as a sloth.  He is soft and weak.   I used to play a guy with a mindset just like him.  Oh, he was all state this and that and averaged 36 points a game in High School but he never ever beat me once, on the court because he was a mental wuss.  At the park, in the gym, I know how to get into his head and beat him and get him off his game.   The big things LeBron lack is killer instinct and a will to win, athletically he is off the board.  His skills aside from his shooting are phoenomenal ( he is a mediocre to slightly above average shooter at best).  Toughness is innate, you can't fake it or pretend your tough because a real tough guy is going to test you.

Wade is tough and will not give up.  I seen him will a team to beat Dallas in the finals.  Bosh and LeBron are not.  I think PP will whip on him again, we know Bosh is owned by KG and Allen is a good foil for Wade.

I actually lived just outside Cleveland up until 3 years ago, when I moved back to Mass, and I did see him play in high school AND at the Q.  I lived in Valley View, just outside Cleveland and not far from Akron.  I watched the Cavs when they were terrible, when Fat Shawn Kemp came there and later when the best player was Darius Miles, and then up until the LBJ years.  Thanks though.

  I hate to break this to you guys but some of LeBron's HS games were on espn. My son, who was in grade school at the time, had seen some of LeBron's games. When we went to Test Track at disney he wanted to get his picture taken in the Hummer they had on display "just like LeBron did".

  I saw quite a few of Larry Bird's regular season college games on tv, btw.

Lol, your son must be quite a hoops fan.

Yeah you're right, they were on TV his senior year.  My point was only in response, that he assumed I'd never seen LBJ in person when in fact I had in every situation he assumed I had not. And I come to none of the same conclusions of him as a quitter or not caring.

  Part hoops fan, part espn junkie. He used to watch sportscenter 2-3 times in a row some days. You can only imagine the steady dose of "LeBron" he was getting.

Must be a huge Favre fan too 

  No, because one of his brothers is a huge Packers fan.

[Celtics4ever]

Watching a game on ESPN or TV and seeing his body langauge live are two different things.   

Here are my feelings on ESPN and LeBron:  "Now, you listen to me, jerk-off, if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem.." John McLain

They made this monster.  They hyped him ad nauseum and fed the masses bullcrap.  Some of us bought it like Snakehead and some of us didn't like Sir Charles.

[Snakehead]

Watching a game on ESPN or TV and seeing his body langauge live are two different things.   

Here are my feelings on ESPN and LeBron:  "Now, you listen to me, jerk-off, if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem.." John McLain

They made this monster.  They hyped him ad nauseum and fed the masses bullcrap.  Some of us bought it like Snakehead and some of us didn't like Sir Charles.

Lol, must of missed the part where I explained how I have seen him live multiple times and used to live in Ohio.

I guess I just "buy in" tho.  [dang] I'm so impressionable.  I gotta work on that. 

[Celtics4ever]

I didn't miss the part but I don't believe you neccesarily either.   You really think that was a worthwhile retort?  I don't think so at all. For all I know you could live in China. I find it most amusing that you think that this was a worthy debate point.   It shows the overall weakness of your argument skills.

Let's say theoretically you lived in Ohio.  You may have seen him but you don't understand winners or basketball and the like.  Otherwise you'd seen this kid don't care.  I find it hard to root for apathetic people.  You must like the choking Buckeyes too, no?   I am from Ohio but we have a long laundry list of choking, the Indians, the Drive.  I guess you've become used to it and live it.  I am not a Browns, Cavs, Tribe or Buckeye fan so I did not become used to it.  I think you have become inured to losing and apathety and think its normal.  Hence, a moral coward who doesn't care about winning doesn't not bother you because your an Ohian and used to all the losing and think its the normal state of sports and life.

I don't think your a Celtic fan, I think your a LeBron fan.  Who do you root for when the C's play LeBron? I root for the Celtics!

[nba is the worst]

OK BBallTim - to me the Celtics were CLEARLY better on both sides of the ball in'08.

Why don't you start a Forum post about which team was better defensively, and see how many agree with you?

Again - you don't address the original point - which is the guy quitting had nothing to do with the Celtics' defense.

Sorry but this post is nonsensical.  Tim provides good analysis and stats that back up his points very well and you just say "Well to me they were clearly better in 08" ?

The defense last year was at least as good, if not better.  Like Tim points out, the teams they faced had better offenses and the Lakers were certainly a better team now than they were back then AND had Andrew Bynum this year.  The Cavs were also a better team.

And if you think LBJ quitting had nothing to do with the Celtics D... not sure what to say.  So if he "quit", why didn't he "quit" against the Bulls crappy D?  Because it was easy to beat that team.  The Celtics played D that made LBJ defer to his teammates and no one stepped up and LBJ himself couldn't get near the paint at a number of times.  He was frusterated and hampered by our D.  

To say it has nothing to do with it?  You do not understand basketball.  You clearly have not played the game.  Anyone who has at all, at any level, understands that tough D frusterated a team and hampers what they are trying to do, especially if a team depends on one player to completely run their offense and that player is unable to do what he wants to do on the court.

Funny stuff - what happened to you posting "But anyways, I bow out of this thread for reals now."?

Now you jump to (false) conclusions about my life as a baller, and claim because I saw the guy quit that I don't understand basketball?

What I've posted since the start of this thread is that his tanking was outside any behavior seen by a superstar on a #1 team - yet you attribute it to "frusteration" due to the Celtics' tough D - that had achieved a 1-2 series deficit up to the point where he quit.

For you to claim that you have actual knowledge of the motivation (or lack thereof) of Lebron is beyond ridiculous.

[nba is the worst]

OK BBallTim - to me the Celtics were CLEARLY better on both sides of the ball in'08.

Why don't you start a Forum post about which team was better defensively, and see how many agree with you?

Again - you don't address the original point - which is the guy quitting had nothing to do with the Celtics' defense.

  You can't really argue that in a vacuum. I'm saying that a main reason Lebron was struggling was our defense, and you're claiming that our defense was significantly worse than it really was.

  As for the new thread. if you went back through many of the threads during the playoffs there were tons of posts that praised the Celtics defense in the playoffs. But even if there weren't, and everybody agreed with you thaz our defense *appeared* to be worse in 2010, they'd be wrong.

  There's a way to judge how well a defense plays that includes all the things that we discussed. FG%, 3 pointers, foul shots, offensive rebounds, turnovers, pace. It's called defensive efficiency, or points per possession (or points per 100 possessions) allowed.

  If I start a thread showing that the defense in 2010 was statistically as good as the defense in 2008 even though the 2010 team faces better opponents, I don't think as many people are going to chime in and say "regardless of how well they performed, the 2010 team's defense was CLEARLY worse" than you think.

Unlike most Celtics fans here, I'm not willing to write off the regular season as not applicable - since IMO if the C's had HCA, they would have won title 18 last season.

But stats that include 6 games vs a #1 seeded team with a 2-time MVP tanking in half of them have questionable value in reality...

For me, it was never about the "which defense was better" tangent that you are focussed on now - I couldn't easily find the defensive efficiency stats for the playoffs only comparing the seasons - but the difference in defensive efficiency was 5% in defensive efficiency (with '08 better) and offensive efficiency only 2% better in '08.

I'd be interested in seeing the defensive efficiency stats in the playoffs comparing the 2 years, if you know where to find them.

However:

It doesn't explain how LeBron scored 45 with 2 turnovers in the elimination game in '08, but only could "manage" 27 with 9 TO's in '10, and didn't even shoot in the last 2 minutes of a single-digit game.

That's coming after the 3-14 15-pt game 5, where the media used words like "distracted", "passive", and "inexplicable" to cover his play...

Again, I understand Celics, Heat, and LeBron fans wanting to think it was Celtics' defense that "made him quit".

I just don't agree.

[BballTim]

OK BBallTim - to me the Celtics were CLEARLY better on both sides of the ball in'08.

Why don't you start a Forum post about which team was better defensively, and see how many agree with you?

Again - you don't address the original point - which is the guy quitting had nothing to do with the Celtics' defense.

  You can't really argue that in a vacuum. I'm saying that a main reason Lebron was struggling was our defense, and you're claiming that our defense was significantly worse than it really was.

  As for the new thread. if you went back through many of the threads during the playoffs there were tons of posts that praised the Celtics defense in the playoffs. But even if there weren't, and everybody agreed with you thaz our defense *appeared* to be worse in 2010, they'd be wrong.

  There's a way to judge how well a defense plays that includes all the things that we discussed. FG%, 3 pointers, foul shots, offensive rebounds, turnovers, pace. It's called defensive efficiency, or points per possession (or points per 100 possessions) allowed.

  If I start a thread showing that the defense in 2010 was statistically as good as the defense in 2008 even though the 2010 team faces better opponents, I don't think as many people are going to chime in and say "regardless of how well they performed, the 2010 team's defense was CLEARLY worse" than you think.

Unlike most Celtics fans here, I'm not willing to write off the regular season as not applicable - since IMO if the C's had HCA, they would have won title 18 last season.

But stats that include 6 games vs a #1 seeded team with a 2-time MVP tanking in half of them have questionable value in reality...

For me, it was never about the "which defense was better" tangent that you are focussed on now - I couldn't easily find the defensive efficiency stats for the playoffs only comparing the seasons - but the difference in defensive efficiency was 5% in defensive efficiency (with '08 better) and offensive efficiency only 2% better in '08.

I'd be interested in seeing the defensive efficiency stats in the playoffs comparing the 2 years, if you know where to find them.

However:

It doesn't explain how LeBron scored 45 with 2 turnovers in the elimination game in '08, but only could "manage" 27 with 9 TO's in '10, and didn't even shoot in the last 2 minutes of a single-digit game.

That's coming after the 3-14 15-pt game 5, where the media used words like "distracted", "passive", and "inexplicable" to cover his play...

Again, I understand Celics, Heat, and LeBron fans wanting to think it was Celtics' defense that "made him quit".

I just don't agree.

  You're just being extremely selective in your examples. That 45 point game was by far LeBron's best effort in elimination games. His game this year could be his second best. You talk about how he was unstoppable against Orlando in 09, when he scored 49, 35, 41, 44, 37 and 25. Guess which one was the elimination game?

  Also, if you want an explanation about why he got 27 and 9 turnovers in game 6 and 45 and 2 turnovers in game 7 in 08, can you first explain how he got 12 points and 10 turnovers in game 1 in 08 and 35 points and 2 turnovers in game 1 in 2010? How about 21 points in game 3 in 08 and 38 points in game 3 this year?

  The fact is, while he appears to be completely unstoppable to you, he generally has good and bad games, and there doesn't seem to be a relationship where he plays his best basketball in elimination games.

  As for the defense, you tried to no avail to show it was better against the Lakers in 08 than 2010, and you tried to no avail to show that it was better overall in the 2008 playoffs. You can claim that their defense wasn't that good, it was just that the Cavs weren't trying. But does that also mean that the Magic and the Lakers weren't trying?

[nba is the worst]

OK BBallTim - to me the Celtics were CLEARLY better on both sides of the ball in'08.

Why don't you start a Forum post about which team was better defensively, and see how many agree with you?

Again - you don't address the original point - which is the guy quitting had nothing to do with the Celtics' defense.

  You can't really argue that in a vacuum. I'm saying that a main reason Lebron was struggling was our defense, and you're claiming that our defense was significantly worse than it really was.

  As for the new thread. if you went back through many of the threads during the playoffs there were tons of posts that praised the Celtics defense in the playoffs. But even if there weren't, and everybody agreed with you thaz our defense *appeared* to be worse in 2010, they'd be wrong.

  There's a way to judge how well a defense plays that includes all the things that we discussed. FG%, 3 pointers, foul shots, offensive rebounds, turnovers, pace. It's called defensive efficiency, or points per possession (or points per 100 possessions) allowed.

  If I start a thread showing that the defense in 2010 was statistically as good as the defense in 2008 even though the 2010 team faces better opponents, I don't think as many people are going to chime in and say "regardless of how well they performed, the 2010 team's defense was CLEARLY worse" than you think.

Unlike most Celtics fans here, I'm not willing to write off the regular season as not applicable - since IMO if the C's had HCA, they would have won title 18 last season.

But stats that include 6 games vs a #1 seeded team with a 2-time MVP tanking in half of them have questionable value in reality...

For me, it was never about the "which defense was better" tangent that you are focussed on now - I couldn't easily find the defensive efficiency stats for the playoffs only comparing the seasons - but the difference in defensive efficiency was 5% in defensive efficiency (with '08 better) and offensive efficiency only 2% better in '08.

I'd be interested in seeing the defensive efficiency stats in the playoffs comparing the 2 years, if you know where to find them.

However:

It doesn't explain how LeBron scored 45 with 2 turnovers in the elimination game in '08, but only could "manage" 27 with 9 TO's in '10, and didn't even shoot in the last 2 minutes of a single-digit game.

That's coming after the 3-14 15-pt game 5, where the media used words like "distracted", "passive", and "inexplicable" to cover his play...

Again, I understand Celics, Heat, and LeBron fans wanting to think it was Celtics' defense that "made him quit".

I just don't agree.

  You're just being extremely selective in your examples. That 45 point game was by far LeBron's best effort in elimination games. His game this year could be his second best. You talk about how he was unstoppable against Orlando in 09, when he scored 49, 35, 41, 44, 37 and 25. Guess which one was the elimination game?

  Also, if you want an explanation about why he got 27 and 9 turnovers in game 6 and 45 and 2 turnovers in game 7 in 08, can you first explain how he got 12 points and 10 turnovers in game 1 in 08 and 35 points and 2 turnovers in game 1 in 2010? How about 21 points in game 3 in 08 and 38 points in game 3 this year?

  The fact is, while he appears to be completely unstoppable to you, he generally has good and bad games, and there doesn't seem to be a relationship where he plays his best basketball in elimination games.

  As for the defense, you tried to no avail to show it was better against the Lakers in 08 than 2010, and you tried to no avail to show that it was better overall in the 2008 playoffs. You can claim that their defense wasn't that good, it was just that the Cavs weren't trying. But does that also mean that the Magic and the Lakers weren't trying?

Hmm - I posted stats showing the points against and margin of victory defense in '08 was better, and I couldn't find a site breaking out defensive efficiency formulas for the playoffs only.

You keep claiming I said the '10 defense "wasn't that good" - where did I say that?

I maintain my belief that it wasn't enough to cause LeBron to post the 5-pt 4th Q passive play in game 4, the standing around halfcourt 14-shot game 5, and the inefficient triple double 9 turnovers and no shots in the last 2 minutes of a single digit game 6. Three consecutive low effort games.

To me, the Celtics' defense vs the Lakers must have been better in a 4-2 Finals win than it was in a 4-3 Finals loss...

[BballTim]

OK BBallTim - to me the Celtics were CLEARLY better on both sides of the ball in'08.

Why don't you start a Forum post about which team was better defensively, and see how many agree with you?

Again - you don't address the original point - which is the guy quitting had nothing to do with the Celtics' defense.

  You can't really argue that in a vacuum. I'm saying that a main reason Lebron was struggling was our defense, and you're claiming that our defense was significantly worse than it really was.

  As for the new thread. if you went back through many of the threads during the playoffs there were tons of posts that praised the Celtics defense in the playoffs. But even if there weren't, and everybody agreed with you thaz our defense *appeared* to be worse in 2010, they'd be wrong.

  There's a way to judge how well a defense plays that includes all the things that we discussed. FG%, 3 pointers, foul shots, offensive rebounds, turnovers, pace. It's called defensive efficiency, or points per possession (or points per 100 possessions) allowed.

  If I start a thread showing that the defense in 2010 was statistically as good as the defense in 2008 even though the 2010 team faces better opponents, I don't think as many people are going to chime in and say "regardless of how well they performed, the 2010 team's defense was CLEARLY worse" than you think.

Unlike most Celtics fans here, I'm not willing to write off the regular season as not applicable - since IMO if the C's had HCA, they would have won title 18 last season.

But stats that include 6 games vs a #1 seeded team with a 2-time MVP tanking in half of them have questionable value in reality...

For me, it was never about the "which defense was better" tangent that you are focussed on now - I couldn't easily find the defensive efficiency stats for the playoffs only comparing the seasons - but the difference in defensive efficiency was 5% in defensive efficiency (with '08 better) and offensive efficiency only 2% better in '08.

I'd be interested in seeing the defensive efficiency stats in the playoffs comparing the 2 years, if you know where to find them.

However:

It doesn't explain how LeBron scored 45 with 2 turnovers in the elimination game in '08, but only could "manage" 27 with 9 TO's in '10, and didn't even shoot in the last 2 minutes of a single-digit game.

That's coming after the 3-14 15-pt game 5, where the media used words like "distracted", "passive", and "inexplicable" to cover his play...

Again, I understand Celics, Heat, and LeBron fans wanting to think it was Celtics' defense that "made him quit".

I just don't agree.

  You're just being extremely selective in your examples. That 45 point game was by far LeBron's best effort in elimination games. His game this year could be his second best. You talk about how he was unstoppable against Orlando in 09, when he scored 49, 35, 41, 44, 37 and 25. Guess which one was the elimination game?

  Also, if you want an explanation about why he got 27 and 9 turnovers in game 6 and 45 and 2 turnovers in game 7 in 08, can you first explain how he got 12 points and 10 turnovers in game 1 in 08 and 35 points and 2 turnovers in game 1 in 2010? How about 21 points in game 3 in 08 and 38 points in game 3 this year?

  The fact is, while he appears to be completely unstoppable to you, he generally has good and bad games, and there doesn't seem to be a relationship where he plays his best basketball in elimination games.

  As for the defense, you tried to no avail to show it was better against the Lakers in 08 than 2010, and you tried to no avail to show that it was better overall in the 2008 playoffs. You can claim that their defense wasn't that good, it was just that the Cavs weren't trying. But does that also mean that the Magic and the Lakers weren't trying?

Hmm - I posted stats showing the points against and margin of victory defense in '08 was better, and I couldn't find a site breaking out defensive efficiency formulas for the playoffs only.

You keep claiming I said the '10 defense "wasn't that good" - where did I say that?

I maintain my belief that it wasn't enough to cause LeBron to post the 5-pt 4th Q passive play in game 4, the standing around halfcourt 14-shot game 5, and the inefficient triple double 9 turnovers and no shots in the last 2 minutes of a single digit game 6. Three consecutive low effort games.

To me, the Celtics' defense vs the Lakers must have been better in a 4-2 Finals win than it was in a 4-3 Finals loss...

  You've said that the 08 defense was clearly better, and I think you also said it was significantly better than the 2010 defense. Neither is true. You might not have specifically said "not that good" but you've consistently claimed that the 2010 defense was CLEARLY worse than it actually was.

  Also, are you serious about "To me, the Celtics' defense vs the Lakers must have been better in a 4-2 Finals win than it was in a 4-3 Finals loss..."? That's amazing. The Lakers scored 94 a game in 2008 and 91 a game in 2010. The Celts scored 102 a game vs LA in 2008 and 87 a game in 2010. Are you really sure it was the defense? Maybe you should guess again.

[Fafnir]

KG/Pierce/Ray's offensive and rebounding declines combined to lose us the finals this year. By a razor margin.

[Celtics4ever]

One area the 08 was better in was toughness.  We were the aggressor and thereby the victor most of time in 08.   You can't say that in 2010.  The Lakers pushed us around a lot and manhandled us at times.  I think Sterno's refs were a big factor in this having Perk tech shackled and calling games to benefit the Lakers.  But some of this was on us not showing up as tough.  Posey really added some toughness to our bench.