Author Topic: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)  (Read 3850 times)

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Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« on: July 24, 2010, 10:56:49 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan06

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The idea of this should be terrifying in the already loaded East but do you think it works for both teams or should the Hornets who are losing the best player in this deal (Chris Paul) making the word "fair" relative demand more? 

The trade is Okafor and Paul for Gortat and Vince Carter. (works in the trade machine)  I'd assume Orlando would need to throw in some draft picks to go along with this as well, but the Hornets still look like a playoff team in the West.  They fill their hole at shooting guard (VC) and they lose Okafor's bloated contract while getting a starting center (and more moveable contract) it gives them a starting 5 of

Collison
VC
Posey
David West
Gortat

And Orlando the benefits are obvious though their payroll gets even more ridiculous but on the bright side their starting five is:

CP3
JJ Redick (becomes a starter)
Rashard Lewis
Okafor (helps them have a more tradition PF)
Howard

with a bench of Nelson, Pietrus, Bass Q-Rich, and Ryan Anderson.

That team and bench should make Miami let alone us very concerned. 




Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2010, 11:05:48 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Not at all.

They get an overpaid washed-up SG and a decent C.

Any deal with Orlando would need to include Nelson, who the Magic simply would not need anymore.
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Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2010, 12:00:18 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The Magic would have to throw in Anderson and probably would need to swap Posey and Pietrus.  Might even need to throw in Nelson.
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Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2010, 07:55:28 AM »

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There is no way I'd even consider putting Lewis back to the small forward position alongside a non-shooting big man at the four ... after Chris Paul arrives.

The idea of what Chris Paul could do as a playmaker, especially off the pick and roll, in that four out one in offense is mouth watering.

Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2010, 08:56:45 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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There is no way I'd even consider putting Lewis back to the small forward position alongside a non-shooting big man at the four ... after Chris Paul arrives.

The idea of what Chris Paul could do as a playmaker, especially off the pick and roll, in that four out one in offense is mouth watering.
Which is why I really don't want him to end up in Orlando.

If CP3 is healthy I think they'd be  my favorite in the east until I see how the new Heat deal with Dwight.

Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2010, 09:19:54 AM »

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There is no way I'd even consider putting Lewis back to the small forward position alongside a non-shooting big man at the four ... after Chris Paul arrives.

The idea of what Chris Paul could do as a playmaker, especially off the pick and roll, in that four out one in offense is mouth watering.
Which is why I really don't want him to end up in Orlando.

If CP3 is healthy I think they'd be  my favorite in the east until I see how the new Heat deal with Dwight.
Hmm ... I think I'd still favour Miami.

I don't think the Magic have enough defensive ability on the perimeter to slow down the Heat. Pietrus is excellent but Vince Carter, JJ Redick and Quentin Richardson trying to slow down Wade + LeBron + Mike Miller? That is not a pretty picture.

It would be an incredible series though. High scoring, excellent execution, quality defense. Lots of mismatches. The intelligence of the players ... that could down as one of the best, if not the best, series of all time.

Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2010, 09:53:02 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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There is no way I'd even consider putting Lewis back to the small forward position alongside a non-shooting big man at the four ... after Chris Paul arrives.

The idea of what Chris Paul could do as a playmaker, especially off the pick and roll, in that four out one in offense is mouth watering.
Which is why I really don't want him to end up in Orlando.

If CP3 is healthy I think they'd be  my favorite in the east until I see how the new Heat deal with Dwight.
Hmm ... I think I'd still favour Miami.

I don't think the Magic have enough defensive ability on the perimeter to slow down the Heat. Pietrus is excellent but Vince Carter, JJ Redick and Quentin Richardson trying to slow down Wade + LeBron + Mike Miller? That is not a pretty picture.

It would be an incredible series though. High scoring, excellent execution, quality defense. Lots of mismatches. The intelligence of the players ... that could down as one of the best, if not the best, series of all time.
Perhaps.

I've seen Dwight make so many meh perimeter defenders look pretty good though over the years.

Having CP3 have to cover Wade would be rough though.....

Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2010, 10:15:12 AM »

Offline BballTim

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There is no way I'd even consider putting Lewis back to the small forward position alongside a non-shooting big man at the four ... after Chris Paul arrives.

The idea of what Chris Paul could do as a playmaker, especially off the pick and roll, in that four out one in offense is mouth watering.
Which is why I really don't want him to end up in Orlando.

If CP3 is healthy I think they'd be  my favorite in the east until I see how the new Heat deal with Dwight.
Hmm ... I think I'd still favour Miami.

I don't think the Magic have enough defensive ability on the perimeter to slow down the Heat. Pietrus is excellent but Vince Carter, JJ Redick and Quentin Richardson trying to slow down Wade + LeBron + Mike Miller? That is not a pretty picture.

It would be an incredible series though. High scoring, excellent execution, quality defense. Lots of mismatches. The intelligence of the players ... that could down as one of the best, if not the best, series of all time.

  By the same token the Heat have no answer at all for Howard, which has generally been a fatal flaw the last couple of years.

Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2010, 10:36:03 AM »

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There is no way I'd even consider putting Lewis back to the small forward position alongside a non-shooting big man at the four ... after Chris Paul arrives.

The idea of what Chris Paul could do as a playmaker, especially off the pick and roll, in that four out one in offense is mouth watering.
Which is why I really don't want him to end up in Orlando.

If CP3 is healthy I think they'd be  my favorite in the east until I see how the new Heat deal with Dwight.
Hmm ... I think I'd still favour Miami.

I don't think the Magic have enough defensive ability on the perimeter to slow down the Heat. Pietrus is excellent but Vince Carter, JJ Redick and Quentin Richardson trying to slow down Wade + LeBron + Mike Miller? That is not a pretty picture.

It would be an incredible series though. High scoring, excellent execution, quality defense. Lots of mismatches. The intelligence of the players ... that could down as one of the best, if not the best, series of all time.

  By the same token the Heat have no answer at all for Howard, which has generally been a fatal flaw the last couple of years.
I am fine with Chris Bosh playing at center against Dwight Howard.

Bosh can defend Howard better than Howard can defend Bosh

Also, Rashard Lewis can defend Bosh better than Howard can defend Bosh. Bosh is a lot more effective as a center against Orlando than as a power forward.

Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2010, 10:41:18 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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I don't think it's possible to really get fair value in a trade with Orlando.

There are only a handful of teams that can make trade offer that even approaches Paul's value, and unfortunately, Paul doesn't currently seem to want to go to most of those teams.

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Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2010, 11:09:54 AM »

Offline timepiece33

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Right now, I'd say Chicago, New Jersey, and Boston have the type of talent to secure Paul without it being an unbearably one sided deal with financial considerations involved.

LA could fit if they are willing to give up Gasol.  

Boston could fit if they are willing to give up Rondo

Chicago and Rose would seem to be a fit.

New Jersey and the Clippers might have some possibilities as well if they are willing to give the right combination of players though the Clippers may have to find a third team to bring in to the mix to take Davis.

Interesting possibilities there.  

The team that really intrigues me is Atlanta.

They could make an offer that includes Josh Smith and the expiring contract of Jamal Crawford for both Chris Paul and Emeka Okafor.   They could throw in Reggie Evans and Jeff Teague and take back James Posey if they wanted to as well. 
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 11:26:56 AM by timepiece33 »

Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2010, 11:32:26 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Still think OKC is the best option for both teams.

Westbrook and Green for Paul

Both teams get something that would help them.  If the Hornets are serious about Okafor you could even do this

Paul and Okafor for Green, Krstic, Westbrook and N. Collison

This would have to put the Thunder as the second team in the west with a starting five of Paul, Harden, Sefolosha, Durant, Okafor with some solid role players like Cook, Peterson, and Ibaka on the bench.
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Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2010, 12:11:17 PM »

Offline nba is the worst

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If CP3 is healthy I think they'd be  my favorite in the east until I see how the new Heat deal with Dwight.
[/quote]
Hmm ... I think I'd still favour Miami.

I don't think the Magic have enough defensive ability on the perimeter to slow down the Heat. Pietrus is excellent but Vince Carter, JJ Redick and Quentin Richardson trying to slow down Wade + LeBron + Mike Miller? That is not a pretty picture.

It would be an incredible series though. High scoring, excellent execution, quality defense. Lots of mismatches. The intelligence of the players ... that could down as one of the best, if not the best, series of all time.
[/quote]

  By the same token the Heat have no answer at all for Howard, which has generally been a fatal flaw the last couple of years.
[/quote]
I am fine with Chris Bosh playing at center against Dwight Howard.

Bosh can defend Howard better than Howard can defend Bosh

Also, Rashard Lewis can defend Bosh better than Howard can defend Bosh. Bosh is a lot more effective as a center against Orlando than as a power forward.
[/quote]

I'm curious - why do you think Bosh is better at defending Howard than vice versa? Dwight can move Bosh out of the way no problem.

Bosh's numbers vs the magic last season were pretty good - at power forward.

Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2010, 12:24:00 PM »

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I am fine with Chris Bosh playing at center against Dwight Howard.

Bosh can defend Howard better than Howard can defend Bosh

Also, Rashard Lewis can defend Bosh better than Howard can defend Bosh. Bosh is a lot more effective as a center against Orlando than as a power forward.
I'm curious - why do you think Bosh is better at defending Howard than vice versa? Dwight can move Bosh out of the way no problem.

Bosh's numbers vs the magic last season were pretty good - at power forward.
Dwight Howard defended Bosh during most of their matchups with the Raptors last season. Lewis took Bargnani. On the other end of the court, Bargnani defended Dwight most of the time (did a good job too) while Bosh took Lewis.

In the past, Dwight Howard has had the odd big game offensively against Bosh but most of the time Bosh has done a good job containing Dwight in one-on-one situations. Bosh isn't a physical post defender but he understands positioning well and sticks behind Dwight and makes him work hard for his shot attempts. On the other end of the court, Dwight hates defending Bosh 15-18 feet from the rim + cannot contain Bosh's jump shot and/or his drives. Bosh has a much easier time consistently scoring against Dwight Howard than Dwight does on Bosh.

When Dwight Howard has had big offensive games against Bosh it has rarely been one-on-one offense ... It's been the Raptors perimeter players inability to play adequate defense which has allowed Jameer Nelson or Hedo Turkoglu to get into the lane easily off the pick and roll which forced Bosh to help on them and left Dwight Howard open around the rim either for the easy pass and flush or offensive rebound and putback.

Unlike the Raptors, Miami has strong perimeter defenders and can do a solid job denying dribble penetration decreasing the need for Bosh to play help defense ... which forces Dwight Howard to play one-on-one offense against Bosh and Bosh has generally (not always but most of time) done a solid job defending Dwight Howard in those situations.

Dwight Howard will still score some against Bosh but Bosh will do a reasonable job + Bosh will be more prolific and efficient attacking Dwight Howard on the other end of the floor.

Re: Is this a fair trade? (Hornets and Orlando)
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2010, 12:36:08 PM »

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I am fine with Chris Bosh playing at center against Dwight Howard.

Bosh can defend Howard better than Howard can defend Bosh

Also, Rashard Lewis can defend Bosh better than Howard can defend Bosh. Bosh is a lot more effective as a center against Orlando than as a power forward.
I'm curious - why do you think Bosh is better at defending Howard than vice versa? Dwight can move Bosh out of the way no problem.

Bosh's numbers vs the magic last season were pretty good - at power forward.
Dwight Howard defended Bosh during most of their matchups with the Raptors last season. Lewis took Bargnani. On the other end of the court, Bargnani defended Dwight most of the time (did a good job too) while Bosh took Lewis.

In the past, Dwight Howard has had the odd big game offensively against Bosh but most of the time Bosh has done a good job containing Dwight in one-on-one situations. Bosh isn't a physical post defender but he understands positioning well and sticks behind Dwight and makes him work hard for his shot attempts. On the other end of the court, Dwight hates defending Bosh 15-18 feet from the rim + cannot contain Bosh's jump shot and/or his drives. Bosh has a much easier time consistently scoring against Dwight Howard than Dwight does on Bosh.

When Dwight Howard has had big offensive games against Bosh it has rarely been one-on-one offense ... It's been the Raptors perimeter players inability to play adequate defense which has allowed Jameer Nelson or Hedo Turkoglu to get into the lane easily off the pick and roll which forced Bosh to help on them and left Dwight Howard open around the rim either for the easy pass and flush or offensive rebound and putback.

Unlike the Raptors, Miami has strong perimeter defenders and can do a solid job denying dribble penetration decreasing the need for Bosh to play help defense ... which forces Dwight Howard to play one-on-one offense against Bosh and Bosh has generally (not always but most of time) done a solid job defending Dwight Howard in those situations.

Dwight Howard will still score some against Bosh but Bosh will do a reasonable job + Bosh will be more prolific and efficient attacking Dwight Howard on the other end of the floor.
To add some more information on this:

Splits
* 2006/07 -- Bosh averaged 34 points and 11 rebounds against Dwight in three games
* 2007/08 -- 33 points + 7.5 rebounds in two games
* 2007/08 Playoffs -- 24 and 9
* 2008/09 -- 25 and 13 in four games
* 2009/10 -- 24 and 10

I can't find the link but sometime around the end of the 2008 season after Bosh scored 40 points on the Magic and both before and during the playoffs ... Stan Van Gundy talked about how difficult a matchup he was for Dwight Howard and said some very nice things about Bosh. I can't remember exactly what but it was along those lines.

-------------------------------------------------

The reason Dwight Howard struggles against Chris Bosh is because Bosh has a quickness advantage against him when Bosh faces up 15-18 feet from the rim. Howard isn't used to being pulled away from the rim and defending out there.

Bosh is excellent jump shooting big man, excellent first step and regularly beats his man off the bounce to either score at the rim or get to the free throw line (top 10 in FTs last four years). That threat, the combination of the jumper + the drive + Bosh's ability to draw contact and get Dwight in foul trouble ... makes Bosh a very difficult matchup for him.

Quick word on Rashard Lewis -- Chris Bosh does not have a quickness advantage against Lewis. This reduces the effectiveness of his face up game and allows Lewis to have some very good defensive sequences against Bosh. Unfortunately, Bosh's post game isn't what it should be, so Bosh doesn't have much alternative but to continue battling away in a situation where he doesn't have an advantage. He'll still score some because he's very talented but Bosh will be less prolific and less efficient against Lewis.