Author Topic: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.  (Read 12146 times)

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Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2010, 05:38:28 AM »

Offline Who

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I think it's going to be bad for the league as well.  It may turn Miami into a big market team, but it puts Cleveland and Toronto in terrible situations.

I'm sorry.  But there is nothing in Bosh's game that would make me pay to watch him.  I doubt that the Raptors will be much worse without him.

I don't think his departure hurts the Raptors franchise at all.
The Raptors shouldn't have felt much of a loss from Bosh's departure if Colangelo kept the roster together.

At least not in the short term ... in the long term they would have hurt.

Ed Davis and Amir Johnson would have been able to replace Bosh's rebounding + defensive contributions. Less touches going to Bosh would have meant more touches to Hedo Turkoglu and his playmaking ability. Hedo would take a little of the scoring and replace a good chunk of the remaining scoring with his passing. Also, Turk's playmaking is easily an upgrade over Bosh's playmaking.

So the Raptors should have only felt a minor drop in scoring ability with Bosh leaving but be comparable everywhere else + still remained a threat for a final playoff spot in the East. Similar to last season. A 8th or 9th place team.

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That isn't so much a slight against Bosh as it a description of the Raptors ... of Toronto's personnel and their specific strengths and weaknesses.

That addition of Ed Davis + the re-signing of Amir Johnson was going to cover up a lot of of Bosh's non-go-to-scoring contributions + the increased role for Turkoglu and re-distributed shots amongst the rest of their talented offensive supporting cast should have made up for most of Bosh's offense.

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Unfortunately, Turkoglu is now gone and that will be a hurting on the Raptors offense. I expect them to miss Turk more than they expect to. He gave their offense a dynamic feel to it. They could attack with the PG, the wing, a big in Bosh and had a weapon in Bargnani. Now, all of their dribble penetration + playmaking + shot-creation is going to stem from the point guard position which makes them predictable and easier to defend (Bargnani doesn't create much of his own offense, relies on others).

So the decline in creative offense (shot creation and/or playmaking -- Bosh + Turkoglu) should be more apparent now than it would have been.

So, they are more like a 30-35 win team now than the 37-41 win team they would have been with Turkoglu (without Chris Bosh).

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Where the Raptors will miss Chris Bosh is a couple of years down the road. He was a very good building block to a future title team.

In similar way that losing Paul Pierce in 2005 would have stopped the Celtics from putting a contender together down the road.

It wasn't Chris Bosh's fault that Bryan Colangelo failed spectacularly to put a quality supporting cast around him. Colangelo had more than enough chances and he wasted them all away.

Once BC got over his Bargnani fixation or once a new GM came in ... Toronto would have been given a new lease of life and building around Bosh would have been an excellent option. An option they've now lost ... something that should force the Raptors into a full-blown rebuilding process (although Colangelo is refusing to do that, so the rebuilding process should take even longer than it needs to).

Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2010, 07:35:17 AM »

Offline JBcat

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Let me ask people this.  How many titles would have Jordan won if you replace Pippen with say Mo Williams or better yet with the Cavs supporting cast over the years verses the Jordan's Bulls.  Jordan failed to mention that along with Pippen, he had Grant a very very solid player early in his career and a rebounding machine in Rodman later on and some other good players such as Kukoc.   

My point is Scottie Pippen is a top 50 player of all time.   I think Jordan would struggle to move on in the playoffs without him as great as Jordan was.  If he didn't have Pippen you think he wouldn't take an aging Bird or Magic or both.  I think he would but he won't say it. 

How titles has a team won with less than 2 stars on the team?  Few and far between.   It's nearly impossible to do and the Cavs had 7 years to find at least 1 legitimate sidekick.  I don't blame Lebron for leaving.  I just don't like the manner that he did it and don't care much for his personality but I think he made the right basketball decision based on winning.  If winning titles is what he wants who can blame him.

Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2010, 07:42:17 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Let me ask people this.  How many titles would have Jordan won if you replace Pippen with say Mo Williams or better yet with the Cavs supporting cast over the years verses the Jordan's Bulls.  Jordan failed to mention that along with Pippen, he had Grant a very very solid player early in his career and a rebounding machine in Rodman later on and some other good players such as Kukoc.   

I think Jordan would have won a title with last year's Cavs.  Shaq, Jamison, and Williams is a legitimate surrounding cast.  Did Jordan ever lose a playoff series when his team was favored / had more wins than their opponent?  I don't think so; when Jordan had the pieces, his teams always won, which is one of the things that separates him from Jordan.

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Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2010, 08:07:15 AM »

Offline JBcat

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Let me ask people this.  How many titles would have Jordan won if you replace Pippen with say Mo Williams or better yet with the Cavs supporting cast over the years verses the Jordan's Bulls.  Jordan failed to mention that along with Pippen, he had Grant a very very solid player early in his career and a rebounding machine in Rodman later on and some other good players such as Kukoc.   

I think Jordan would have won a title with last year's Cavs.  Shaq, Jamison, and Williams is a legitimate surrounding cast.  Did Jordan ever lose a playoff series when his team was favored / had more wins than their opponent?  I don't think so; when Jordan had the pieces, his teams always won, which is one of the things that separates him from Jordan.


You just named 3 guys Shaq, Jamison, and Williams that hardly play any D nowadays.   Pippen is one of the greatest wing defenders of all time in his prime and the Bulls D was suffocating.   Plus Jordan had a coach that actually knew how to run an offense not like Mike Brown.   I don't think it's a slam dunk Jordan would have won last year and I know how great Jordan was.   Let's make this clear I'm not saying Lebron is on the same level of Jordan but who is but even Jordan himself I think would struggle a little bit carrying that cast of characters.    They are going to be a pretty awful team this year. 

Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2010, 08:11:22 AM »

Offline moiso

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Give Jordan those Cavs as his supporting cast and they would win a title more often than not.  Add Varejoa to that list- I'd rank him above the others mentioned.  He's a championship level dirty work big man.

Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2010, 08:20:13 AM »

Offline Chelm

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As much as I hate Lebron these days, he is good.  There's no way Jordan would've led that Cavs team to a championship.  Keep in mind when Jordan retired, the 94 Bulls won 55 games (only 3 less than the prior year WITH Jordan).  I doubt the Cavs will do that, which proves it's an inferior supporting cast than Jordan's early 90s Bulls.

Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2010, 08:21:35 AM »

Offline JBcat

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Let me ask people this.  How many titles would have Jordan won if you replace Pippen with say Mo Williams or better yet with the Cavs supporting cast over the years verses the Jordan's Bulls.  Jordan failed to mention that along with Pippen, he had Grant a very very solid player early in his career and a rebounding machine in Rodman later on and some other good players such as Kukoc.  

I think Jordan would have won a title with last year's Cavs.  Shaq, Jamison, and Williams is a legitimate surrounding cast.  Did Jordan ever lose a playoff series when his team was favored / had more wins than their opponent?  I don't think so; when Jordan had the pieces, his teams always won, which is one of the things that separates him from Jordan.


You just named 3 guys Shaq, Jamison, and Williams that hardly play any D nowadays.   Pippen is one of the greatest wing defenders of all time in his prime and the Bulls D was suffocating.   Plus Jordan had a coach that actually knew how to run an offense not like Mike Brown.   I don't think it's a slam dunk Jordan would have won last year and I know how great Jordan was.   Let's make this clear I'm not saying Lebron is on the same level of Jordan but who is but even Jordan himself I think would struggle a little bit carrying that cast of characters.    They are going to be a pretty awful team this year.  

I'll make 1 more point.   When Jordan took that hiatus during the middle of his career the Bulls if I remember correctly were still at least a .500 team.   Take Lebron away from last year's Cavs and I really think they would be lucky to win 30 games.  

Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2010, 08:21:47 AM »

Offline soap07

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I like how Barkley says that when youre a 2 time defending MVP, the players should come to you, you shouldn't be going to any other team.  He is probably right with that as well.

No, he's absolutely wrong. How exactly were Bosh/Wade supposed to come to Cleveland with no cap space? Were they supposed to take the vet minimum? Even if Bosh agreed to a sign-and-trade, how would they have signed Wade?

Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2010, 08:22:27 AM »

Offline soap07

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I'm sorry, I just don't see how even Jordan, with Mo Williams as his second best player, could win a title last year. I just don't see it.

Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2010, 08:25:12 AM »

Offline moiso

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I like how Barkley says that when youre a 2 time defending MVP, the players should come to you, you shouldn't be going to any other team.  He is probably right with that as well.

No, he's absolutely wrong. How exactly were Bosh/Wade supposed to come to Cleveland with no cap space? Were they supposed to take the vet minimum? Even if Bosh agreed to a sign-and-trade, how would they have signed Wade?
I agree with the origional comment.  Who wins an mvp and then takes off to play with a better player?  Nobody but Lebron, right?

Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2010, 08:36:39 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I like how Barkley says that when youre a 2 time defending MVP, the players should come to you, you shouldn't be going to any other team.  He is probably right with that as well.

No, he's absolutely wrong. How exactly were Bosh/Wade supposed to come to Cleveland with no cap space? Were they supposed to take the vet minimum? Even if Bosh agreed to a sign-and-trade, how would they have signed Wade?
I agree with the origional comment.  Who wins an mvp and then takes off to play with a better player?  Nobody but Lebron, right?
Moses Malone won the MVP and then went to Dr. J's team and they won the title that first season.  And Wade is not better then Lebron, it may be Wade's team, but Lebron will be the best player.  Just like it was Dr. J's team and Moses immediately became the best player as evident by him winning another MVP and Philly winning the title.
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Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2010, 08:39:18 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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I'm sorry, I just don't see how even Jordan, with Mo Williams as his second best player, could win a title last year. I just don't see it.

The Cavs had us down 2-1.  Lebron then had three straight games shooting below 40%, which probably is what cost his team the series.  Do you see Jordan coughing up a 2-1 lead, or shooting 18-for-53 (33.9%) to close out the series?  I certainly don't.

The gap between Lebron and Jordan is a large one, especially when it comes to stepping on other teams' collective throats.

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Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2010, 08:48:40 AM »

Offline Chelm

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Let me ask people this.  How many titles would have Jordan won if you replace Pippen with say Mo Williams or better yet with the Cavs supporting cast over the years verses the Jordan's Bulls.  Jordan failed to mention that along with Pippen, he had Grant a very very solid player early in his career and a rebounding machine in Rodman later on and some other good players such as Kukoc.  

I think Jordan would have won a title with last year's Cavs.  Shaq, Jamison, and Williams is a legitimate surrounding cast.  Did Jordan ever lose a playoff series when his team was favored / had more wins than their opponent?  I don't think so; when Jordan had the pieces, his teams always won, which is one of the things that separates him from Jordan.


You just named 3 guys Shaq, Jamison, and Williams that hardly play any D nowadays.   Pippen is one of the greatest wing defenders of all time in his prime and the Bulls D was suffocating.   Plus Jordan had a coach that actually knew how to run an offense not like Mike Brown.   I don't think it's a slam dunk Jordan would have won last year and I know how great Jordan was.   Let's make this clear I'm not saying Lebron is on the same level of Jordan but who is but even Jordan himself I think would struggle a little bit carrying that cast of characters.    They are going to be a pretty awful team this year.  

I'll make 1 more point.   When Jordan took that hiatus during the middle of his career the Bulls if I remember correctly were still at least a .500 team.   Take Lebron away from last year's Cavs and I really think they would be lucky to win 30 games.  
They were not just a .500 team.  They were really, really good.  They were a .670 team the first Jordanless year & almost went to the NBA Finals (a couple points in a game 7 ECF).

Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2010, 08:50:16 AM »

Offline moiso

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I like how Barkley says that when youre a 2 time defending MVP, the players should come to you, you shouldn't be going to any other team.  He is probably right with that as well.

No, he's absolutely wrong. How exactly were Bosh/Wade supposed to come to Cleveland with no cap space? Were they supposed to take the vet minimum? Even if Bosh agreed to a sign-and-trade, how would they have signed Wade?
I agree with the origional comment.  Who wins an mvp and then takes off to play with a better player?  Nobody but Lebron, right?
Moses Malone won the MVP and then went to Dr. J's team and they won the title that first season.  And Wade is not better then Lebron, it may be Wade's team, but Lebron will be the best player.  Just like it was Dr. J's team and Moses immediately became the best player as evident by him winning another MVP and Philly winning the title.
Moses was traded for Caldwell Jones and a first round draft pick.  But yeah, he was looking for bigger money.

Re: Jordan speaks on LeBron going to Miami.
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2010, 09:01:38 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Let me ask people this.  How many titles would have Jordan won if you replace Pippen with say Mo Williams or better yet with the Cavs supporting cast over the years verses the Jordan's Bulls.  Jordan failed to mention that along with Pippen, he had Grant a very very solid player early in his career and a rebounding machine in Rodman later on and some other good players such as Kukoc.  

I think Jordan would have won a title with last year's Cavs.  Shaq, Jamison, and Williams is a legitimate surrounding cast.  Did Jordan ever lose a playoff series when his team was favored / had more wins than their opponent?  I don't think so; when Jordan had the pieces, his teams always won, which is one of the things that separates him from Jordan.


You just named 3 guys Shaq, Jamison, and Williams that hardly play any D nowadays.   Pippen is one of the greatest wing defenders of all time in his prime and the Bulls D was suffocating.   Plus Jordan had a coach that actually knew how to run an offense not like Mike Brown.   I don't think it's a slam dunk Jordan would have won last year and I know how great Jordan was.   Let's make this clear I'm not saying Lebron is on the same level of Jordan but who is but even Jordan himself I think would struggle a little bit carrying that cast of characters.    They are going to be a pretty awful team this year.  

I'll make 1 more point.   When Jordan took that hiatus during the middle of his career the Bulls if I remember correctly were still at least a .500 team.   Take Lebron away from last year's Cavs and I really think they would be lucky to win 30 games.  
They were not just a .500 team.  They were really, really good.  They were a .670 team the first Jordanless year & almost went to the NBA Finals (a couple points in a game 7 ECF).

In the year without Jordan, the Bulls lost in the second round, not the ECF.

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