Basketball philosophy, logic, and theory 101

[Eja117]

I wasn't sure where to put this so I put it in global basketball.

Today's question for the class. 3 parts

1 Is it possible to have a team that has enough talent to get the best record in the league, but doesn't have enough to win the championship, or is this a logical oxymoron?

2 Follow up question....If a player has enough talent on his team to win the regular season should he then state he never had enough talent to win the finals and therefore needs to consider leaving town before he wakes up at the age of 31 with creaky knees and no ring?

3 Final question...does Lebron James represent a logical basketball fallacy?

[Redz]

1. yes, that's been proven many times
2. probably not
3. we shall see

[wdleehi]

1) Yes.  That's because in the regular season you play all the teams.  In the playoffs, you have to go one on one with the best teams.  If there is a team that you must get through, but can't match up with, you can't win.  

example:  Cleveland Vs. Boston  No team can beat that Boston defense with one man.


2) Yes.  If the player cares more about winning then being the only superstar.  If not, would Boston have been able to get KG?  Wouldn't KG have been happy to just play out his career in Minn and never win a title?  Or Ray in Seattle?  Or Pierce by himself in Boston.


3) No.  He represents no matter how much individual talent and gifts you have, you need a team that is well run to have a chance to win.  Because a badly run team will spend a whole lot of money to put a fatally flawed team around you.

[Eja117]

Question #2

If the Celtics ever had the best record in the East and then lost in the playoffs to an older team, with prior injures, would we say "They had the best record, but not the talent to win it all?"


Follow up....if this happened would we accept the argument, or expect others to accept the argument, that in order to win in the finals it was necessary for our best player to sign with two other all-stars from the Olympic team?

#3  Why didn't MJ, Magic, and Barkely say something about this while it was happening, rather than wait till after?

[Who]

I wasn't sure where to put this so I put it in global basketball.

Today's question for the class. 3 parts

1 Is it possible to have a team that has enough talent to get the best record in the league, but doesn't have enough to win the championship, or is this a logical oxymoron?

2 Follow up question....If a player has enough talent on his team to win the regular season should he then state he never had enough talent to win the finals and therefore needs to consider leaving town before he wakes up at the age of 31 with creaky knees and no ring?

3 Final question...does Lebron James represent a logical basketball fallacy?

(1) Yes, but the Cavs were not one of these teams. It's possible for the best regular season team not to be a contender or to be a contender but not the frontrunner (in either entire league or conference).

Cleveland were a legitimate contender and were the frontrunner in the East but LA should have still been favoured league wide.

(2) Several teams offered LeBron better situations elsewhere. He was right to leave + right to join Miami because they had the best offer.

[fairweatherfan]

1 Is it possible to have a team that has enough talent to get the best record in the league, but doesn't have enough to win the championship, or is this a logical oxymoron?

2 Follow up question....If a player has enough talent on his team to win the regular season should he then state he never had enough talent to win the finals and therefore needs to consider leaving town before he wakes up at the age of 31 with creaky knees and no ring?

3 Final question...does Lebron James represent a logical basketball fallacy?

1 Yes, in theory, but I think it's very rare.  The Cavs for instance did absolutely have enough talent to win the title; just because they didn't do it doesn't mean they weren't capable.  There's more than one team every year that's talented enough to win it, though of course only one team actually does.

2 The answer to your question is yes, for a lot of reasons, but the main one being "because Cleveland".  Someone who grew up there would be doubly aware that heartbreak comes a lot more easily to that city than rings.

3 Nah, he's just an extremely talented tool.

[Chris]

I wasn't sure where to put this so I put it in global basketball.

Today's question for the class. 3 parts

1 Is it possible to have a team that has enough talent to get the best record in the league, but doesn't have enough to win the championship, or is this a logical oxymoron?

2 Follow up question....If a player has enough talent on his team to win the regular season should he then state he never had enough talent to win the finals and therefore needs to consider leaving town before he wakes up at the age of 31 with creaky knees and no ring?

3 Final question...does Lebron James represent a logical basketball fallacy?

1. Absolutely, it happens all the time.  It can take very different things to win in the regular season and the playoffs.

2. Well, we can debate what he should "say" all day, because I think that is a very personal opinion about what is proper.  However, as we stated in #1, that can certainly happen.  More importantly, there is a difference between not having the talent to win it all in the past, and not having it in the future.  For example, I think the Cavs had enough talent to win the championship last year with a little luck.  But I think the way the roster was constructed, they would actually be getting worse as the years went by, and not better, so if he stayed there, he very well may have ended up 31 with bad knees and no championships.

3. Nope, his basketball logic was strong.  It was his view of history, and his place in it, as well as his public relations that were lacking.

[wdleehi]

Question #2

If the Celtics ever had the best record in the East and then lost in the playoffs to an older team, with prior injures, would we say "They had the best record, but not the talent to win it all?"


Follow up....if this happened would we accept the argument, or expect others to accept the argument, that in order to win in the finals it was necessary for our best player to sign with two other all-stars from the Olympic team?

#3  Why didn't MJ, Magic, and Barkely say something about this while it was happening, rather than wait till after?

Didn't KG and Ray both play in the Olympics?  Didn't they join the Celtics all star to win?

If the Celtics could never beat this team in the playoffs, then yes.  We would be yelling for a major change to get over the hump.

Lets be honest, two of them played with great players.  Jordon has Pippen.  MJ had Kareem.   Barkley forced the 76ers to trade him because he didn't think they had enough talent around him.

[More Banners]

I wasn't sure where to put this so I put it in global basketball.

Today's question for the class. 3 parts

1 Is it possible to have a team that has enough talent to get the best record in the league, but doesn't have enough to win the championship, or is this a logical oxymoron?

2 Follow up question....If a player has enough talent on his team to win the regular season should he then state he never had enough talent to win the finals and therefore needs to consider leaving town before he wakes up at the age of 31 with creaky knees and no ring?

3 Final question...does Lebron James represent a logical basketball fallacy?

1) Yes, for the match-up reason given above by wdleehi.  They might have enough talent, but not of the needed variety, creating holes to be exploited in a 7-game series.  If we faced Atlanta in the postseason this past season, perhaps we don't make the Finals.  In the case of the Cavs, I think they had enough talent this year, but a turrible coach that either couldn't put it together or couldn't get the superstar to buy into being a decoy on a few possessions now and then, posting up, or comeing off screens going to the hoop.

2) It would be hard for any player to be on the team with the best record and claim they didn't have enough talent to win it all, but at the same time the championship isn't an entitlement of greatness.  Just ask Chuck.  Or Karl.

3) Personally, I think Lebron was a bigger problem in Cleveland than anyone else in the franchise, and Dan Gilbert was 100% correct (even if he shouldn't have put it in a public letter) that they made a mistake by coddling him and giving in to his (and his posse's) whims so often for so long.  That's not the way to win.  Lebron doesn't seem to have any clue that he really could have pushed Cleveland to the Finals this year simply by posting up.

[Eja117]

Question #3

What's up with these draft promises?

A promise? Really?  What are we, 13 year old girls?  Do we have a promise ring available? Do we go to Tiffany's for those, or just Wal Mart? Do they cross their heart and swear to die?

Where are the agents in this?  I mean why on Earth should you agree to cancel workouts and interviews?  If a team is like "We want you to cancel workouts" wouldn't the answer be "Why should it matter if I workout with a team drafting after you?" 

If they say "Well if you don't do it we won't draft you" wouldn't the response be "Fine. Draft the guy you want 2nd most. I'm getting drafted. If you draft me I promise to play for you. I promise to tell every team in the league you're trying to get me to cancel interviews and workouts. You do realize I'm trying to get drafted as high as possible, right? If I promise to try not to do that do you promise to pay me like I got drafted higher than I did?" 

These things are always totally weird to me.

[wdleehi]

DFF


Draft Friends Forever!!!




Honestly, I would work out with every and any team, not matter what one team tells me.


Who knows, a better team with a higher pick (more money) might like the player enough to pick them after a good workout.

[action781]

Who knows, a better team with a higher pick (more money) might like the player enough to pick them after a good workout.

I think that kind of situation would be ridiculous for a player to cancel a workout for.  I think eja is more focused on a situation like a team with the #5 draft pick tells a player "we're drafting you at 5, don't work out with any players at 6 or below".

But what your comment did just make me realize is that a team at 6 or below could end up really liking the player and be willing to trade up to #4 to grab him there.  That would be very beneficial for the player.

[Chris]

DFF


Draft Friends Forever!!!




Honestly, I would work out with every and any team, not matter what one team tells me.


Who knows, a better team with a higher pick (more money) might like the player enough to pick them after a good workout.

This makes sense for a player who is a lock for the first round.

I think promises only really make sense for first round bubble players.  There is much more of a difference between the guaranteed money of a first round pick and the contract of a second round pick, than there is between say, the 18th pick and 27th pick. 

So, if you feel there is any chance of slipping to the second round, and a team offers a guarantee that they will pick you if you cancel all other workouts, then it makes a lot of sense to do that.

It is the same mindset of signing a contract in your last year before before becoming a free agent for a slight discount.  Yes, you may have lost a little money, but you also gain the piece of mind, in case you get injured, or struggle, etc.

And even though these promises aren't legally binding, they are pretty close to it, since agents run this league, and the second a GM screws over an agent like that, they are going to have a whole lot of trouble getting anything done in the future.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

I wasn't sure where to put this so I put it in global basketball.

Today's question for the class. 3 parts

1 Is it possible to have a team that has enough talent to get the best record in the league, but doesn't have enough to win the championship, or is this a logical oxymoron?

2 Follow up question....If a player has enough talent on his team to win the regular season should he then state he never had enough talent to win the finals and therefore needs to consider leaving town before he wakes up at the age of 31 with creaky knees and no ring?

3 Final question...does Lebron James represent a logical basketball fallacy?

1. Case in point. 1995 Orlando Magic, 2004 Los Angeles Lakers, 2011 Miami Heat

2. The fact that he didn't win makes it acceptable to say that he did not have enough talent and leave for somewhere where he thinks there is. But then again, even after he gets the talents that he need, as question 1 already proven, it's not sure that he'll win. Chances are he's gonna come back to saying "he did not have enough talent" and go look elsewhere, again.

3. No, LeBron is no doubt really talented. But he does not have the will to win. Therefore he won't win. Pretty logical enough.

[BballTim]

Question #3

What's up with these draft promises?

A promise? Really?  What are we, 13 year old girls?  Do we have a promise ring available? Do we go to Tiffany's for those, or just Wal Mart? Do they cross their heart and swear to die?

Where are the agents in this?  I mean why on Earth should you agree to cancel workouts and interviews?  If a team is like "We want you to cancel workouts" wouldn't the answer be "Why should it matter if I workout with a team drafting after you?" 

If they say "Well if you don't do it we won't draft you" wouldn't the response be "Fine. Draft the guy you want 2nd most. I'm getting drafted. If you draft me I promise to play for you. I promise to tell every team in the league you're trying to get me to cancel interviews and workouts. You do realize I'm trying to get drafted as high as possible, right? If I promise to try not to do that do you promise to pay me like I got drafted higher than I did?" 

These things are always totally weird to me.

  While this happened in the second round, Danny made a promise to draft a player a few years ago, probably Orien Greene. When the pick came up Danny tried to get out of the promise because he wanted someone else, Amir Johnson I believe. He offered to sign Orien to a bigger contract than he had planned on if he went undrafted, but the agent declined so Ainge drafted him. He may have slipped all the way out of the round if the Celts didn't pick him. There's risk on both ends on a promise.