Author Topic: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?  (Read 17605 times)

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Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2010, 10:35:43 AM »

Offline Chris

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As far as H2H, Rondo didn't play either Foye or Roy in college.  I doubt that Danny based his entire assessment on how the players competed against each other in pre-draft workouts, and I'm not even sure if those guys went H2H.



Well, I am pretty sure all of those guys worked out against each other, but not sure if they really played "head to head" or just did drills.

I also believe the word was that Danny actually wanted Foye at 7, and he only traded the pick when he knew that the Wolves were going to pick him before them.  He did not want Roy because of the knee.

Rondo, on the other hand, I think was high on his list, however, I think he was drafted as a value pick when he fell so low.  I think Danny really liked him, but not more than Foye.

Sometimes its better to be lucky than good.

Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2010, 10:35:54 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Danny took Rondo for much the same reason that he took Marcus Banks, and why OKC took Westbrook:  he loved the physical tools that Rondo possessed, and thought that he'd be more productive in a system better suited to his skills.
And I'll add that I don't think Danny anticipated how good Rondo would become.

If he had I don't think he'd have let so many other teams have a shot at him.

I'm not sure anyone not named MikeDfromNP anticipated it.

Haha.  I'm still waiting for MikeD's Jacoby Ellsbury prediction to come true, though.

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Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2010, 10:36:32 AM »

Offline BballTim

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without the words upside, ceiling, athletic ability, physical tools or any combination thereof? Thanks. After Gerald Green I don't find those words convincing anymore.

Without using speed, passing ability, court awareness, and ability to steal tell me why Rondo's a top PG.

Besides his shooting ability, heart, and court awareness was Larry Bird all that great?

I don't believe Rose is a top 3 PG, I believe he will be, but you can't start your argument by saying "You can't mention the attributes that make him great."

 Ceiling and upside don't make a player great. Just ask Gerald Green.

Athletic ability and physical tools are certainly part of the discussion, though.  The first two are speculative, but the second two are very real attributes (and are the reason that Danny was so high on a guy like Rondo, despite pedestrian stats in college.)

  Danny was high on Rondo more for his head to head play vs Roy and Foye and his production than his athletic ability. You can't be great without athletic ability but you can have athletic ability without being great.

I'm skeptical that it had much to do with production; Rondo averaged 11 / 5 in his last college season. 

As far as H2H, Rondo didn't play either Foye or Roy in college.  I doubt that Danny based his entire assessment on how the players competed against each other in pre-draft workouts, and I'm not even sure if those guys went H2H.

Danny took Rondo for much the same reason that he took Marcus Banks, and why OKC took Westbrook:  he loved the physical tools that Rondo possessed, and thought that he'd be more productive in a system better suited to his skills.


 I didn't mean college, I meant the tournaments he was in.

Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2010, 10:36:43 AM »

Offline Chris

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Danny took Rondo for much the same reason that he took Marcus Banks, and why OKC took Westbrook:  he loved the physical tools that Rondo possessed, and thought that he'd be more productive in a system better suited to his skills.
And I'll add that I don't think Danny anticipated how good Rondo would become.

If he had I don't think he'd have let so many other teams have a shot at him.

I'm not sure anyone not named MikeDfromNP anticipated it.

And MikeD was not even on the bandwagon until after the draft.

Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2010, 10:42:40 AM »

Offline crownsy

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Definitely has the potential to be a top PG in the league. But as everyone else is saying, he's not there just yet. Rondo, Williams, Paul, Nash are all a higher class of PG at the moment.



Sorry Disagree. Rose is better than Rondo,Williams and Chris Paul right now. Only Nash is better than Rose at the moment. He has the potential to be totally dominant. He is incredible.
What's your reasoning for this proclamation?

His stats are worse than all of those players.

He can take over a game. He plays big in the biggest games and he is only 22 cmon. None of the point guards besides Nash have the ability to be so dominant.

  Wake me up when he puts up something close to 29/18/13.


Tuesday April 13, 2010 vs the Celtics
39 points 7 assists and 5 rebounds.
It takes so much pressure off your offense when your point guard is a great scorer. Why? Because he is handeling the ball most of the time. Sorry If given the choice I would take Rose over Rondo anytime.

That's not even close, as roy has pointed out. That is not a compelling counter to BBall's example.

Add in the fact that it was played on a game that the Celtics really had no interest in and Chicago desperately needed, and it's even less so.

Rose has the potential to be in the top three based on his physical skill set, but he is not even in the top five right now. He needs to master running a team as opposed to dominating the ball and making a few flashy passes.

I think he'll likely get there in a few years, but right now, if i had to take a PG to run my contending team during a playoff series, I take, in no particular order:

Rondo
Nash
Paul
Williams
Billups

and possibly, though I'd likely take rose:
Kidd
Parker
Nelson

The topic was "Is he a top 3 PG right now?" and i don't think he is as of this moment.


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Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2010, 10:43:24 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Not yet.....BUT...if Le Queen deigns to go to the Windy City...I think immediately. Look at what the Big Three have done for Rondo.


  Rondo has better stats when one or more of them are out. Rose's stats will probably drop as well if LeBron goes there and dominates the ball.


I agree, but just as the Big Three have made RR better, so will Le Queen make Rose better. And as RR has taught us, stats alone do not necessarily an All Star make.

   And had LeBron made all of his teammates better in Cleveland? Any of them? Those guys might have made Rondo better when he was a 2nd year player averaging 8 points and 5 assists but they aren't responsible for the leap his game has taken over the last year and a half or so.

I think that one quality of a great player (not a requirement, though) is that ability to make those around you more effective. LeBron certainly does this. Mo Wms,Parker, West and Z get way more open looks because of James. Verajao is freer to roam and cause havoc, especially on the offensive end because James has his back defensively. Personally, I don't think that these guys have a ton of talent, but Mo Wms became an "all-star" (notice the lower case because RR deserved it over him last year)because of James.

And regarding RR, yes GPA aided in his development tremendously, and helped make him what he is today. I think the same will occur with Rose and James.



  Mo's stats weren't any better on Cleveland aside from his 3 point shooting. He made the all-star team because he was on a team with a better record than in the past. James will command attention away from Rose but he'll also take the ball away from him.

Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2010, 10:44:38 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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without the words upside, ceiling, athletic ability, physical tools or any combination thereof? Thanks. After Gerald Green I don't find those words convincing anymore.

Without using speed, passing ability, court awareness, and ability to steal tell me why Rondo's a top PG.

Besides his shooting ability, heart, and court awareness was Larry Bird all that great?

I don't believe Rose is a top 3 PG, I believe he will be, but you can't start your argument by saying "You can't mention the attributes that make him great."

 Ceiling and upside don't make a player great. Just ask Gerald Green.

Athletic ability and physical tools are certainly part of the discussion, though.  The first two are speculative, but the second two are very real attributes (and are the reason that Danny was so high on a guy like Rondo, despite pedestrian stats in college.)

  Danny was high on Rondo more for his head to head play vs Roy and Foye and his production than his athletic ability. You can't be great without athletic ability but you can have athletic ability without being great.

I'm skeptical that it had much to do with production; Rondo averaged 11 / 5 in his last college season. 

As far as H2H, Rondo didn't play either Foye or Roy in college.  I doubt that Danny based his entire assessment on how the players competed against each other in pre-draft workouts, and I'm not even sure if those guys went H2H.

Danny took Rondo for much the same reason that he took Marcus Banks, and why OKC took Westbrook:  he loved the physical tools that Rondo possessed, and thought that he'd be more productive in a system better suited to his skills.


 I didn't mean college, I meant the tournaments he was in.

I don't recall reading anything like that; do you have a link?  What type of tournaments are you talking about?  I'm not even sure that they competed against each other.

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Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2010, 10:47:51 AM »

Offline FatjohnReturns

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Definitely has the potential to be a top PG in the league. But as everyone else is saying, he's not there just yet. Rondo, Williams, Paul, Nash are all a higher class of PG at the moment.



Sorry Disagree. Rose is better than Rondo,Williams and Chris Paul right now. Only Nash is better than Rose at the moment. He has the potential to be totally dominant. He is incredible.
What's your reasoning for this proclamation?

His stats are worse than all of those players.

He can take over a game. He plays big in the biggest games and he is only 22 cmon. None of the point guards besides Nash have the ability to be so dominant.

  Wake me up when he puts up something close to 29/18/13.


Tuesday April 13, 2010 vs the Celtics
39 points 7 assists and 5 rebounds.
It takes so much pressure off your offense when your point guard is a great scorer. Why? Because he is handeling the ball most of the time. Sorry If given the choice I would take Rose over Rondo anytime.

That's not even close, as roy has pointed out. That is not a compelling counter to BBall's example.

Add in the fact that it was played on a game that the Celtics really had no interest in and Chicago desperately needed, and it's even less so.

Rose has the potential to be in the top three based on his physical skill set, but he is not even in the top five right now. He needs to master running a team as opposed to dominating the ball and making a few flashy passes.

I think he'll likely get there in a few years, but right now, if i had to take a PG to run my contending team during a playoff series, I take, in no particular order:

Rondo
Nash
Paul
Williams
Billups

and possibly, though I'd likely take rose:
Kidd
Parker
Nelson

The topic was "Is he a top 3 PG right now?" and i don't think he is as of this moment.




yeah Rose at #2
Nash
Rose
Williams
Chris Paul(healthy version)
Rondo,
Nelson
Billups  

Rose can score the basketball. Its simple really.
 




Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2010, 11:07:45 AM »

Offline BballTim

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without the words upside, ceiling, athletic ability, physical tools or any combination thereof? Thanks. After Gerald Green I don't find those words convincing anymore.

Without using speed, passing ability, court awareness, and ability to steal tell me why Rondo's a top PG.

Besides his shooting ability, heart, and court awareness was Larry Bird all that great?

I don't believe Rose is a top 3 PG, I believe he will be, but you can't start your argument by saying "You can't mention the attributes that make him great."

 Ceiling and upside don't make a player great. Just ask Gerald Green.

Athletic ability and physical tools are certainly part of the discussion, though.  The first two are speculative, but the second two are very real attributes (and are the reason that Danny was so high on a guy like Rondo, despite pedestrian stats in college.)

  Danny was high on Rondo more for his head to head play vs Roy and Foye and his production than his athletic ability. You can't be great without athletic ability but you can have athletic ability without being great.

I'm skeptical that it had much to do with production; Rondo averaged 11 / 5 in his last college season. 

As far as H2H, Rondo didn't play either Foye or Roy in college.  I doubt that Danny based his entire assessment on how the players competed against each other in pre-draft workouts, and I'm not even sure if those guys went H2H.

Danny took Rondo for much the same reason that he took Marcus Banks, and why OKC took Westbrook:  he loved the physical tools that Rondo possessed, and thought that he'd be more productive in a system better suited to his skills.


 I didn't mean college, I meant the tournaments he was in.

I don't recall reading anything like that; do you have a link?  What type of tournaments are you talking about?  I'm not even sure that they competed against each other.

  Sorry. Head to head in the private workouts Danny had, Rondo's production in tournaments as opposed to at Ky.

Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2010, 11:11:53 AM »

Offline csfansince60s

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Not yet.....BUT...if Le Queen deigns to go to the Windy City...I think immediately. Look at what the Big Three have done for Rondo.


  Rondo has better stats when one or more of them are out. Rose's stats will probably drop as well if LeBron goes there and dominates the ball.


I agree, but just as the Big Three have made RR better, so will Le Queen make Rose better. And as RR has taught us, stats alone do not necessarily an All Star make.

   And had LeBron made all of his teammates better in Cleveland? Any of them? Those guys might have made Rondo better when he was a 2nd year player averaging 8 points and 5 assists but they aren't responsible for the leap his game has taken over the last year and a half or so.

I think that one quality of a great player (not a requirement, though) is that ability to make those around you more effective. LeBron certainly does this. Mo Wms,Parker, West and Z get way more open looks because of James. Verajao is freer to roam and cause havoc, especially on the offensive end because James has his back defensively. Personally, I don't think that these guys have a ton of talent, but Mo Wms became an "all-star" (notice the lower case because RR deserved it over him last year)because of James.

And regarding RR, yes GPA aided in his development tremendously, and helped make him what he is today. I think the same will occur with Rose and James.



  Mo's stats weren't any better on Cleveland aside from his 3 point shooting. He made the all-star team because he was on a team with a better record than in the past. James will command attention away from Rose but he'll also take the ball away from him.


I totally agree about Wms regarding the "all-star" selection.However, his 3pt stats went up because of the open looks Wms got due to the attention James commanded. Rose, however, off the ball, is more dangerous than RR, given both his cutting ability (not quite as good as RR)and his shooting.

Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2010, 11:12:44 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Definitely has the potential to be a top PG in the league. But as everyone else is saying, he's not there just yet. Rondo, Williams, Paul, Nash are all a higher class of PG at the moment.



Sorry Disagree. Rose is better than Rondo,Williams and Chris Paul right now. Only Nash is better than Rose at the moment. He has the potential to be totally dominant. He is incredible.
What's your reasoning for this proclamation?

His stats are worse than all of those players.

He can take over a game. He plays big in the biggest games and he is only 22 cmon. None of the point guards besides Nash have the ability to be so dominant.

  Wake me up when he puts up something close to 29/18/13.


Tuesday April 13, 2010 vs the Celtics
39 points 7 assists and 5 rebounds.
It takes so much pressure off your offense when your point guard is a great scorer. Why? Because he is handeling the ball most of the time. Sorry If given the choice I would take Rose over Rondo anytime.

That's not even close, as roy has pointed out. That is not a compelling counter to BBall's example.

Add in the fact that it was played on a game that the Celtics really had no interest in and Chicago desperately needed, and it's even less so.

Rose has the potential to be in the top three based on his physical skill set, but he is not even in the top five right now. He needs to master running a team as opposed to dominating the ball and making a few flashy passes.

I think he'll likely get there in a few years, but right now, if i had to take a PG to run my contending team during a playoff series, I take, in no particular order:

Rondo
Nash
Paul
Williams
Billups

and possibly, though I'd likely take rose:
Kidd
Parker
Nelson

The topic was "Is he a top 3 PG right now?" and i don't think he is as of this moment.




yeah Rose at #2
Nash
Rose
Williams
Chris Paul(healthy version)
Rondo,
Nelson
Billups  

Rose can score the basketball. Its simple really.
 





  He might be the least efficient scorer in that group. Sure, he can score, but that's his only superior talent, right?

Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2010, 11:14:05 AM »

Offline Chris

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without the words upside, ceiling, athletic ability, physical tools or any combination thereof? Thanks. After Gerald Green I don't find those words convincing anymore.

Without using speed, passing ability, court awareness, and ability to steal tell me why Rondo's a top PG.

Besides his shooting ability, heart, and court awareness was Larry Bird all that great?

I don't believe Rose is a top 3 PG, I believe he will be, but you can't start your argument by saying "You can't mention the attributes that make him great."

 Ceiling and upside don't make a player great. Just ask Gerald Green.

Athletic ability and physical tools are certainly part of the discussion, though.  The first two are speculative, but the second two are very real attributes (and are the reason that Danny was so high on a guy like Rondo, despite pedestrian stats in college.)

  Danny was high on Rondo more for his head to head play vs Roy and Foye and his production than his athletic ability. You can't be great without athletic ability but you can have athletic ability without being great.

I'm skeptical that it had much to do with production; Rondo averaged 11 / 5 in his last college season. 

As far as H2H, Rondo didn't play either Foye or Roy in college.  I doubt that Danny based his entire assessment on how the players competed against each other in pre-draft workouts, and I'm not even sure if those guys went H2H.

Danny took Rondo for much the same reason that he took Marcus Banks, and why OKC took Westbrook:  he loved the physical tools that Rondo possessed, and thought that he'd be more productive in a system better suited to his skills.


 I didn't mean college, I meant the tournaments he was in.

I don't recall reading anything like that; do you have a link?  What type of tournaments are you talking about?  I'm not even sure that they competed against each other.

  Sorry. Head to head in the private workouts Danny had, Rondo's production in tournaments as opposed to at Ky.

Yeah, Rondo tore up the World Juniors, and then had a very mediocre year at Kentucky. 

Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2010, 11:29:43 AM »

Offline FatjohnReturns

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Definitely has the potential to be a top PG in the league. But as everyone else is saying, he's not there just yet. Rondo, Williams, Paul, Nash are all a higher class of PG at the moment.



Sorry Disagree. Rose is better than Rondo,Williams and Chris Paul right now. Only Nash is better than Rose at the moment. He has the potential to be totally dominant. He is incredible.
What's your reasoning for this proclamation?

His stats are worse than all of those players.

He can take over a game. He plays big in the biggest games and he is only 22 cmon. None of the point guards besides Nash have the ability to be so dominant.

  Wake me up when he puts up something close to 29/18/13.


Tuesday April 13, 2010 vs the Celtics
39 points 7 assists and 5 rebounds.
It takes so much pressure off your offense when your point guard is a great scorer. Why? Because he is handeling the ball most of the time. Sorry If given the choice I would take Rose over Rondo anytime.

That's not even close, as roy has pointed out. That is not a compelling counter to BBall's example.

Add in the fact that it was played on a game that the Celtics really had no interest in and Chicago desperately needed, and it's even less so.

Rose has the potential to be in the top three based on his physical skill set, but he is not even in the top five right now. He needs to master running a team as opposed to dominating the ball and making a few flashy passes.

I think he'll likely get there in a few years, but right now, if i had to take a PG to run my contending team during a playoff series, I take, in no particular order:

Rondo
Nash
Paul
Williams
Billups

and possibly, though I'd likely take rose:
Kidd
Parker
Nelson

The topic was "Is he a top 3 PG right now?" and i don't think he is as of this moment.




yeah Rose at #2
Nash
Rose
Williams
Chris Paul(healthy version)
Rondo,
Nelson
Billups  

Rose can score the basketball. Its simple really.
 





  He might be the least efficient scorer in that group. Sure, he can score, but that's his only superior talent, right?

Not sure depends if you think 6 apg regular season and 7apg in the postseason is a superior stat. Rondo is much better with 10 apg and 11 apg. I can understand the case for Rondo in the top three. I just want my point guard to be able to score the basketball.

Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2010, 11:42:02 AM »

Offline crownsy

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Definitely has the potential to be a top PG in the league. But as everyone else is saying, he's not there just yet. Rondo, Williams, Paul, Nash are all a higher class of PG at the moment.



Sorry Disagree. Rose is better than Rondo,Williams and Chris Paul right now. Only Nash is better than Rose at the moment. He has the potential to be totally dominant. He is incredible.
What's your reasoning for this proclamation?

His stats are worse than all of those players.

He can take over a game. He plays big in the biggest games and he is only 22 cmon. None of the point guards besides Nash have the ability to be so dominant.

  Wake me up when he puts up something close to 29/18/13.


Tuesday April 13, 2010 vs the Celtics
39 points 7 assists and 5 rebounds.
It takes so much pressure off your offense when your point guard is a great scorer. Why? Because he is handeling the ball most of the time. Sorry If given the choice I would take Rose over Rondo anytime.

That's not even close, as roy has pointed out. That is not a compelling counter to BBall's example.

Add in the fact that it was played on a game that the Celtics really had no interest in and Chicago desperately needed, and it's even less so.

Rose has the potential to be in the top three based on his physical skill set, but he is not even in the top five right now. He needs to master running a team as opposed to dominating the ball and making a few flashy passes.

I think he'll likely get there in a few years, but right now, if i had to take a PG to run my contending team during a playoff series, I take, in no particular order:

Rondo
Nash
Paul
Williams
Billups

and possibly, though I'd likely take rose:
Kidd
Parker
Nelson

The topic was "Is he a top 3 PG right now?" and i don't think he is as of this moment.




yeah Rose at #2
Nash
Rose
Williams
Chris Paul(healthy version)
Rondo,
Nelson
Billups  

Rose can score the basketball. Its simple really.
 





  He might be the least efficient scorer in that group. Sure, he can score, but that's his only superior talent, right?

Not sure depends if you think 6 apg regular season and 7apg in the postseason is a superior stat. Rondo is much better with 10 apg and 11 apg. I can understand the case for Rondo in the top three. I just want my point guard to be able to score the basketball.

I guess it depends on your definition of "scoring the basketball" for a PG.

Even removing rondo on the grounds that he lacks a plus jump shot, to me

Nash
Paul
D-will
Billups
Nelson

Are all superior "scoring" PG's to rose because i consider:

20 Points 8-10 assists = more points scored

as opposed to the current rose line of

25ish points and 5-6 assists

To me, the guys in the first group are "Scoring" more, and being more efficient with the basketball, as well as getting their teammates more involved.
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Can someone explain what makes Rose a top 3 PG?
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2010, 11:43:43 AM »

Offline Brendan

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Danny took Rondo for much the same reason that he took Marcus Banks, and why OKC took Westbrook:  he loved the physical tools that Rondo possessed, and thought that he'd be more productive in a system better suited to his skills.
And I'll add that I don't think Danny anticipated how good Rondo would become.

If he had I don't think he'd have let so many other teams have a shot at him.

I'm not sure anyone not named MikeDfromNP anticipated it.
TP for the MikeDfromNP ref. When I PM'd him that I bumped into Rondo at a local breakfast spot he was green with envy. That guy was great.