Author Topic: Remember who really believed when the stories change  (Read 88743 times)

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Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #150 on: June 03, 2010, 02:46:40 PM »

Offline drza44

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Which leads to the other big trend...the "I was wrong but nobody could have seen this coming so I wasn't really wrong" mindset.  I've seen this on the message board, obviously, but even among national writers like Hollinger or Simmons, I've been seeing articles to that effect.  I've seen Budweiser and a couple of others mention it for our family on this site, but really it applies to the national media as well...there WAS information out there, legitimate and supportable info, to suggest that this championship run was very possible.  

Can someone provide the quotes from Hollinger and Simmons?
Otherwise its just speculation.


This is from Simmons' latest article:

"If they (the Celtics) win the title, they would …

1. Join the 1978 Bullets (21-24 in their last 45 regular-season games) and 1995 Rockets (12-16 in their last 28) as one of the most improbable "where the hell did this come from?" NBA champs ever. The 2010 Celts went 26-24 in their last 50 regular-season games, were 3-7 in their last 10, and couldn't have looked more lifeless and discombobulated down the stretch. Believe me, I watched them all season. There were no signs of life."


and also

"Please know that I have no regrets for ripping the Celtics in the regular season; they deserved every ounce of it. My father, a season-ticket holder since 1974, told me in April that it was one of the two worst regular seasons he ever paid for, along with the 1978-79 season (the one before Bird), just because he couldn't believe how many home games the team mailed in. Now that we're in the Finals? Dad says, "Yeah, paying for [all the mailed-in home games] was worth it. We're here, and that's all that matters. And it's clear now that we just needed to get healthy. "

Both of which, to me, say essentially that he wasn't really wrong for ripping the Cs before with statements like "I Know the Celtics will lose in round 1...I thought Dwyane Wade could beat by himself what I described in a recent e-mail as a 'decrepit, non-rebounding, poorly coached, dispirited, excuse-making, washed-up sham of a contender'" because nobody could have looked at the available evidence and had another interpretation.  And that's not true.

As for Hollinger, I've heard him in Radio interviews (the latest of which was today on Cowherd) where he emphasizes that there was no precedent for a team being this good in the postseason after finishing the season so poorly.  He makes no mention of Garnett's injury, Pierce's injuries, or any of the other potential reasons that some have been pointing out for months as to reasons why the Celtics weren't done or maybe didn't fit well into his analytic models.  He also has an article titled "Celtics working on surprise ending" that he's referred to on the radio, but it requires Insider.  Either way, though, in his case he relies upon the numbers and historical trends to make statements like "They (the Magic) have the best players, more depth and more rest. There's simply no plausible reason to bet against them."  When in fact, there were plausible reasons but they didn't register in Hollinger's analysis.  If your analysis gives you the wrong answer, say it gave you the wrong answer or that you should have considered some facts that you discounted, don't say that "nobody" could have seen it coming.  That's a copout.  IMO.

Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #151 on: June 03, 2010, 03:06:50 PM »

Offline drza44

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A mild example of a "changed story" from Britt Robson, of CNNSI. 

From his first round preview, where he picked the Heat to win the series.

"These are not your older brother's Boston Celtics. The 2008 champs went 27-24 since Jan. 1, picking up embarrassing home losses to the Nets and Wizards in the final six weeks of the season. They are constantly out-rebounded, their bench is suspect and their three veteran stars are all clearly on the wane."   http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/britt_robson/04/15/east.previews/index.html

From his Finals preview:

"Both teams (Lakers and Celtics) have impeccable credentials -- dominating early in the season as they conducted a talent and chemistry check, then coasting in the latter half of the season to conserve health and energy for June."   http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/britt_robson/05/31/finals.lakers.celtics/index.html 

You see what he did there?  Before the playoffs started the Celtics were old and weak, as evidenced by their 2nd half of the season.  But now, the Celtics have "impeccable credentials" because they dominated the early part of the season with absolutely no mention of their 2nd half and what he previously thought.

As a side note, I'm actually a fan of Robson's from his time when he used to run an excellent site that covered the Wolves.  But these types of little white lies of omission become more and more common over time, and eventually my experience has been that most people remember only the second sentiment and not the first one.

Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #152 on: June 03, 2010, 03:09:33 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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You'll always get that with the media, most writers and talking heads don't like to say "I was wrong". It undercuts their current credibility more than creative editing of what they said and usually they have a co-host or e-mailers bagging them for being wrong.

Quality updates as usual drza, though I wouldn't have the patience to document things like you have had!

Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #153 on: June 03, 2010, 03:15:12 PM »

Offline Cman

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A mild example of a "changed story" from Britt Robson, of CNNSI. 

From his first round preview, where he picked the Heat to win the series.

"These are not your older brother's Boston Celtics. The 2008 champs went 27-24 since Jan. 1, picking up embarrassing home losses to the Nets and Wizards in the final six weeks of the season. They are constantly out-rebounded, their bench is suspect and their three veteran stars are all clearly on the wane."   http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/britt_robson/04/15/east.previews/index.html

From his Finals preview:

"Both teams (Lakers and Celtics) have impeccable credentials -- dominating early in the season as they conducted a talent and chemistry check, then coasting in the latter half of the season to conserve health and energy for June."   http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/britt_robson/05/31/finals.lakers.celtics/index.html 

You see what he did there?  Before the playoffs started the Celtics were old and weak, as evidenced by their 2nd half of the season.  But now, the Celtics have "impeccable credentials" because they dominated the early part of the season with absolutely no mention of their 2nd half and what he previously thought.

As a side note, I'm actually a fan of Robson's from his time when he used to run an excellent site that covered the Wolves.  But these types of little white lies of omission become more and more common over time, and eventually my experience has been that most people remember only the second sentiment and not the first one.

TP (for the above and clarification on Simmons and Holinger).
RE: the above, the "impeccable credentials" is pretty darning on Robinson's part, given what he wrote before. 

I look forward to seeing more "changed stories" like the above.
Celtics fan for life.

Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #154 on: June 14, 2010, 09:17:40 AM »

Offline ssspence

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This is an amazing thread. I was certainly one of the folks who felt it was arrogant to be "bored" by the regular season, and that teams couldn't just turn it on from either a physical or chemistry perspective after such poor execution to finish the season.

While they continue to be at each others throats much of the time, it does seem to bring out the best in them. I'll be happy eating my words if these boys can win     one        more       game....
Mike

(My name is not Mike)

Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #155 on: June 14, 2010, 09:40:43 AM »

Offline muddy02

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i'll just add that even though the C's have come back healthier than they were the second half of the season, not everyone was hobbled.  It's as simple as they are just playing better.  Why does there always have to be a smoking gun??  maybe the bench got more motivated come the playoffs and saw the level of competition rise, and they also rose to the occasion.  It's really hard to do that in the regular season.  Playing series' against teams is VERY different from 1 tuesday night game against the Thunder in January. 

My take is that they got that extra added motivation, and once they (meaning the ENITRE team) realized that they have a legitimate shot at this thing, which i feel happened early on in the Cavs series, they really stepped on the gas.

Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #156 on: July 15, 2010, 03:10:20 AM »

Offline Green Hell

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I think it's about time we unsticky this topic. It's kind of a painful reminder of our greatest defeat... especially for all the "believers."
Never stop believing baby~

Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #157 on: July 15, 2010, 04:28:28 AM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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I think it's about time we unsticky this topic. It's kind of a painful reminder of our greatest defeat... especially for all the "believers."
While this was a painful final series, this was an accomplishment not a defeat!  Despite all odds, after an injury laden year, the Celtics pulled together, fought and scratched, and took the defending Champions to a seven game finals, losing their starting center (their best interior defender) along the way.  They came within one quarter, two refs and five points of winning...on the road...the NBA championship.  Greatest defeat?  I think not.  Proof of the will and heart of the Celtics?  Absolutely.
 
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Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #158 on: July 16, 2010, 01:22:09 PM »

Offline drza44

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I've been on the hustle in a series of major time crunches every since I got back from the game, and I just got back from another trip as well.  In the near future I still plan to give my opinion on how everything went down as kind of a season summary, but now that we've seen the direction the Celtics are going this offseason I plan to continue this moving into next season.

Whether it remains stickied or not is, of course, up to the Admins.  But the Celtics proved themselves in the postseason to be essentially what I thought they were, and I look forward to another season of surprises this year as very few seem (right now) to think they have anything left in the tank at all (Vegas has the Heat 1:1 to win the title, the Lakers 3:1, but I got the Celtics at 12:1 (behind even the Nuggets).  I'd be willing to bet that this changes again before this time next year.

Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #159 on: July 16, 2010, 01:44:31 PM »

Offline Prof. Clutch

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While this was a painful final series, this was an accomplishment not a defeat!  Despite all odds, after an injury laden year, the Celtics pulled together, fought and scratched, and took the defending Champions to a seven game finals, losing their starting center (their best interior defender) along the way.  They came within one quarter, two refs and five points of winning...on the road...the NBA championship.  Greatest defeat?  I think not.  Proof of the will and heart of the Celtics?  Absolutely.

Worth a TP? Absolutely.

Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #160 on: July 16, 2010, 01:46:21 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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While this was a painful final series, this was an accomplishment not a defeat!  Despite all odds, after an injury laden year, the Celtics pulled together, fought and scratched, and took the defending Champions to a seven game finals, losing their starting center (their best interior defender) along the way.  They came within one quarter, two refs and five points of winning...on the road...the NBA championship.  Greatest defeat?  I think not.  Proof of the will and heart of the Celtics?  Absolutely.

Worth a TP? Absolutely.

And 1.

Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #161 on: July 16, 2010, 01:51:21 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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I hope Vegas never catches on.  At the rate that every one is jumping onto the Miami bandwagon, the Celtics odds may even go higher.  
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Tomorrow is a mystery.
Today is a gift...
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Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #162 on: July 16, 2010, 04:03:47 PM »

Offline ACF

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Once again, Green Hell, remind me why you have "Never stop believing, baby" in your sig?

Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #163 on: August 06, 2010, 08:47:51 AM »

Offline Kwhit10

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Sorry delete this.

Re: Remember who really believed when the stories change
« Reply #164 on: August 11, 2010, 12:10:42 PM »

Offline drza44

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OK, I'm ready to give my personal accounting of 2009-10.  The whole point of this thread was to call out folks who change their stories after the fact without ever acknowledging that their original opinion was wrong.  So, it's accountability time.  If you want to trace my opinions/writings from last season through the months you could probably find most of them in this thread already, but at the bottom of this (long) post I'll link most of my key writings chronologically.  And you can judge for yourself if and by how much my story changed through the year.  But in the meantime, here's my summary of 09-10 in my own words.

I entered last season with the belief that the Celtics might just win 70 games and were the favorites for the ring.  My logic was thus: in '08 the Cs coasted to 66 wins, got over their teamwork hiccups in the postseason and handily defeated two very strong opponents in the last 2 rounds to win the title.  In 2009 they were right there again on top of the league through February, then KG went down and thus the title hopes went away.  But we had been led to believe that whatever mysterious knee ailment KG had was minor and corrected by offseason surgery, that the team was p---ed for having missed out on another title run, and that Rondo and Perk were both much improved on top of Ray and Paul staying relatively constant.  Throw a now healthy, motivated KG as well as another proven vet big like Sheed into the mix, and I thought the 09-10 Celtics would take the league by storm.

And briefly, they did.  Despite early rough patches as KG worked himself into shape, the team sat at 23-5 on Christmas day, having won 14 of their last 15 games.  Our scoring margin was a league-leading +9.5, almost exactly what it was in 2009 before KG's injury and all-year in 2008.  I was feeling smug.

In hindsight, we now know that KG's injury was more severe than they originally told us and his prognosis was always a year from surgery for full recovery.  Thus, it's not shocking that at this point he went down for 10 games.  Unluckily, Pierce went down in the same time period with his own series of injuries.  And in the 19 games that Garnett and/or Pierce missed, the team went 9 - 10, with a scoring margin of -0.8.  A huge fall-off from what they were.

And it was over the next 3 months where the faith of the entire Celtics faithful, let alone the general basketball world, was SORELY tested.  Because even after KG and Pierce came back...the team kept struggling.  They played .500 ball for about 4 months leading up to the playoffs, leading the vast majority to think that this Celtics crew was done as contenders.  The veteran players, especially KG, looked run down.  Sheed had become public enemy #1 as he seemed to coast through the season, out of shape, not showing any indication he could contribute positively.  When the squad lost to the lowly Nets, I think many decided that our window had closed and it was time to blow it up.  Even the Celtics fans were feuding, with the "optimists" and the "pessimists" drawing all types of lines in the sand and calling each other out at every opportunity.  The Celtics limped into the postseason as a 50-win 4th seed that some thought would be out in round 1, and very few saw any hope for them to get past Cleveland in Round 2.  But what about me, Mr. Confident 70-wins guy?

Well, like everyone I had to at least consider the possibility that I had just been flat out wrong.  But...I just didn't think so.  I thought about what I had seen in the regular season, and proclaimed that the Celtics were still a favorite to win the ring with only the Lakers and possibly the Cavs as potential road blocks.  Here was my rationale:

"I believe that the Celtics looked up, after going 9 - 10 in the 19 games where Garnett and/or Pierce sat out, and realized that they couldn't catch the Lakers or Cavs.  I think they also were feeling their mortality after losing out on a chance to contend last year due to an injury.  And I think the whole focus of the team became: let's make it to the playoffs healthy, and if so we've got a shot.  I think they revved it up a bit in March to see if they still had it during a stretch when they went 6 - 1 with a win in Dallas, and I think they revved it up again in their last game against the Cavs as a bit of a measuring stick.  Once they proved to themselves they could still do it, they essentially started the end-of-season shut-down that you saw from a lot of the teams who couldn't really change their postseason position...but I think they started it a bit earlier."

There was no proof of that, but it's what I believed at the time.  Then the Cs came out and dominated the Heat.  And I posted another big prediction article that said the Celtics would beat the Cavs in 6 games.  Here was my rationale:

"I think either the Cavs or the Cs could legitimately win what should be a toss-up series.  But I think that our vets have been working and planning and conserving all year to be their best for this series.  I think that we see the best playoff performance from the Cs since they demolished the Lakers  in the Finals.  And I think the Cs take this one in 6 games.  My inner analyst and my inner fan are both comfortable with that prediction.  "

After the Cs did, in fact, beat the Cavs in 6 I wrote another prediction article before the Magic.  Here is the money section:

"Finally, and this ties back to my themes from previous articles...the Celtics are just better than the Magic.  The Magic, like those Pistons were, are a very good team that is on a roll and has convinced the majority of the experts that they will send the Celtics home.  But the Celtics are rottweilers, and as the Captain pointed out last year Orlando looked like poodles against the Lakers.  This Magic team is better than they were a year ago, but I'm still confident that the big dogs come out on top.  Celtics in 6."

After the Magic series, I was positive that the Cs would win the title.  Everything in me just pointed in that direction.  I finally felt vindicated, because in the postseason the Celtics had shown themselves to be the team that I thought they were, not the wreck that they had looked in the months leading up to the postseason.  I predicted them in 6 over the Lakers.  Here's my money quote:

"This matchup could go anywhere from 5 to 7 games without shocking me.   My first thought is to say Celtics in 6, though it does give me pause that with the 2 – 3 – 2 format game 6 is in LA.  But 5 and 7 are the extremes of when I’d expect the Cs to win, and they’ve been beasts on the road this year anyway, so I’ll go ahead and say it.  Celtics in 6.  #18 is a reality."

And again, through 5 games I thought I was right on the mark.  The Celtics had weathered the early Lakers' storm, were up 3-2 in the series (and really should have won 4-1 if not for a crazy game 3 finish).  I thought we had it.

Only to see the team crumble in game 6, especially after Perk got hurt, in a way I just never expected to see.  I still can't explain it.  They came back and played a valiant game 7, one that I got to witness in person, and the Lakers just squeaked out a close win.  I had thought the Celtics would win the title.  I had thought it through thick-and-thin, all season long.  I was sure of it.  Had wrote thousands of words on the subject.  Had bet on it in Vegas.  I knew.

And I was wrong.

But at the end of the day...at the end of the year...despite being wrong, I don't really feel like I was THAT wrong.  The Lakers were just a smidgeon better than I thought.  The Celtics, based primarily upon the health of their 2 starting bigs, were just a smidgeon worse than I thought.  But they were right there.  Oh, were they right there. 

And as I bring my thoughts of 2010 to a close, I transition into 2011 with this thought: I don't think it's over.