Remember who really believed when the stories change

[FLCeltsFan]

I called Celtics in 6 in all 3 series.  I was off by one in the Heat series.  But very happy to be right in the last two series. 

[WeMadeIt17]

very happy to say my story is yet to change. You can check my thread of the Dawn for that.. Yes i was down a few times on this team but had a gut feeling mid march about this team! Come on Celtics make it so i can change my name to WeMadeIt18!!!!!!

[Birdbrain]

I'm with you and couldn't agree more with the revisionism of the media.  On paper this the best team of the KG era.

This thread has stood the test of time.  Another TP for you my friend.

[EJPLAYA]

I will come out right now and admit that I was wrong and thought the C's had no chance at getting to the finals. I'm glad to be wrong.

I will also throw out there the thought that the people who did not believe had very good factual reasons not to. We were playing 500 ball most of the season. We were playing worse than that at the end of the season. The team was obviously having chemistry problems. Our rotation was bouncing all over the place. As much credit as I give to those who posted that they still believed we could get to this point, I would also argue that if they were completely honest with themselves it was more HOPE than true belief. If you had to put everything you owned on the line as to who would be in the finals at the end of the regular season I doubt many "believers" would have put the Celtics on the list.

That being said, Crow tastes real good about now. Let's hope the Lakers get drug out to 7 games and we get the rest we need to be healthy.

[BudweiserCeltic]

EJ, it's not that people had "very good factual reasons not to", it's that they ignored a lot of other factual reasons.

They were playing .500 ball. Good. But why where they playing .500 ball? Few were willing to go and identify those reasons. They why they were playing as such is way more important than whether they were winning or losing at the time.

But whatever, we're in the finals now... let's go get #18.

[angryguy77]

EJ, it's not that people had "very good factual reasons not to", it's that they ignored a lot of other factual reasons.

They were playing .500 ball. Good. But why where they playing .500 ball? Few were willing to go and identify those reasons. They why they were playing as such is way more important than whether they were winning or losing at the time.

But whatever, we're in the finals now... let's go get #18.

The team was saying all along that it was bored with the reg season. Not being there menatly and having injuries isn't a good formula for winning a championship. People had good reason to doubt this team going in.

[BudweiserCeltic]

EJ, it's not that people had "very good factual reasons not to", it's that they ignored a lot of other factual reasons.

They were playing .500 ball. Good. But why where they playing .500 ball? Few were willing to go and identify those reasons. They why they were playing as such is way more important than whether they were winning or losing at the time.

But whatever, we're in the finals now... let's go get #18.

The team was saying all along that it was bored with the reg season. Not being there menatly and having injuries isn't a good formula for winning a championship. People had good reason to doubt this team going in.

So you identify lack of focus and health as the reasons for doubting the team. Is that enough to make proclamations of this team having no chance to win it all?

Doubts are fine, as long as those doubts are grounded with facts. You can doubt we would be able get healthy. OK, but it wasn't an impossibility as some might have wanted to suggest. In fact, as the 2nd half of the season progressed it was quite evident that we were getting healthier, particularly Garnett. So how much did health actually factor in some claiming that the Celtics had little to no chance?

Focus? Well, the reason for lack of focus being given was because there was some boredom playing the season out (which in my opinion was a bit exaggerated). Wouldn't just reaching the playoffs cure that? I mean, isn't that at all possible?

So people want to doubt, hey that's fine. It's normal... but the conclusions being made by many were just based on inaccurate and incomplete facts. It also ignores that other teams we're competing with also have to stay healthy and be focused during the playoffs.

Rashard blew by Garnett <-- "Holy crap, Garnett can no longer defend in this league, we're doomed!!!"

This to me was the epitome of flawed conclusions.

What I find funny is how many of us last year when we got fatigued during the playoffs blamed Doc for losing perspective during the season. So we start focusing on getting healthier during the season, and we're going to once again question the strategy?

It's a given that we shouldn't have been losing as much as we did during the 2nd half. But the reasons for what was happening were very identifiable and were correctable. Particularly when you add the 1st half of the season in which were dominating. There was no reason to simply dismiss many of the explanations given, particularly ones based on facts, for what was happening during the second half. You can doubt all you want, but there was no reason for the types of proclamations being made here by some... and it irked me when when many factors were just ignored and dismissed due to convenience of the argument.

And then we go see the "Experts" opinions and laugh at them, when they're pretty much doing what many here are doing or have done.

[drza44]

No, the point was that a lot of times you'll have the writers and "experts" (and even fans) completely change their story after the fact to something they weren't espousing all along.  The original examples I used were how the '04 Wolves (that many didn't think would work) in memory became this stacked squad.  Similarly, the '08 Celtics were roundly criticized by many because of the lack of depth and lack of proven ability outside of KG/Pierce/Allen, and many questioned whether those 3 alone could do it.  But after they won, all of a sudden in hindsight it was like this foregone conclusion that they would be champs.

This thread was meant to counter that for this team.  I always figured that this team would win the title (which, of course, is still not yet decided) but there are/were a lot of people that disagreed with me.  And that's fine.  But if you disagreed that the Celtics could win a title from October to May, I don't want to read any articles in June from these same writers trying to minimize the achievement because "they knew it all along". 

Are there any examples yet of writers who wrote the Celtics off, only to change their tune and say "they knew it all along"?

It would be great to get a list of the writers ("experts" -- hah!) with their original quotes next to their later quotes.

I'd love to see this too.  As I said in my last post, this season is pretty unique because the Celtics were so universally panned in the media entering the playoffs that I doubt many writers could say with a straight face that they had the Cs all along...at least not yet.  But if the Celtics do go ahead and win this whole thing, don't be surprised if once some time has gone by you start seeing more revisionist articles down the line. 

Also, important note, other folks are more than welcome to post any article they see that they think the author may one day recant.  I post a handful whenever I get a chance, but obviously I'm not getting a universal count.  Most of the ones I do post come from FLCelticsFan's excellent Daily Links, and I know I'm not the only one that reads them.

The other big thing I've been noticing is that since so many truly believed the Celtics wouldn't do anything, the trend has been to minimize the Celtics' accomplishments and focus more about how the other team came up short.  The Celtics didn't beat the Cavs, LeBron and the Cavs choked.  The Celtics didn't beat the Magic, it was that the Magic didn't show up.

Or, the one that is becoming my personal "favorite"...the Celtics aren't better than their opponents, but they're "tougher" or they've got a "championship mindset" and that's the reason that they're winning.  It's because LeBron and Howard clown so much, that's the reason they lost.  Any and every euphemism besides just, "the Celtics were the better team and I didn't realize it".

Which leads to the other big trend...the "I was wrong but nobody could have seen this coming so I wasn't really wrong" mindset.  I've seen this on the message board, obviously, but even among national writers like Hollinger or Simmons, I've been seeing articles to that effect.  I've seen Budweiser and a couple of others mention it for our family on this site, but really it applies to the national media as well...there WAS information out there, legitimate and supportable info, to suggest that this championship run was very possible. 

I'm willing to give our family here a mulligan since for the most part we aren't professional analysts and fan-dom can often come with a dose of pessimism.  But if you're a professional analyst, especially one that is expected to be strongly analytical like Hollinger, claiming I-wasn't-THAT-wrong-because-nobody-knew is just as weak as changing your story to saying "I knew it all along".

/rant

[BballTim]

I will also throw out there the thought that the people who did not believe had very good factual reasons not to. We were playing 500 ball most of the season. We were playing worse than that at the end of the season. The team was obviously having chemistry problems. Our rotation was bouncing all over the place. As much credit as I give to those who posted that they still believed we could get to this point, I would also argue that if they were completely honest with themselves it was more HOPE than true belief. If you had to put everything you owned on the line as to who would be in the finals at the end of the regular season I doubt many "believers" would have put the Celtics on the list.

  I have to admit that I had my doubts that the Celts would turn it around during the postseason after one of those bad losses near the end of the season. Those feelings lasted for a good 10-15 minutes.

  The chemistry issues were based on having KG and PP in and out of the lineup or playing below par due to injury for a full 2 months as well as incorporating Rondo's offensive improvement into things. They weren't based on any fatal flaw in personnel and didn't exist before Xmas so I didn't expect them to be permanent.

[guava_wrench]

There are a considerable number of writers who have liked the Celts from the beginning of the season but gave up on them for good reason when they fell apart. I really can't fault them.

Some writers correctly predicted that the Celts wouldn't be able to remain healthy in 2009 and would not repeat. The prediction game is purely for entertainment purposes.

[Birdbrain]

EJ, it's not that people had "very good factual reasons not to", it's that they ignored a lot of other factual reasons.

They were playing .500 ball. Good. But why where they playing .500 ball? Few were willing to go and identify those reasons. They why they were playing as such is way more important than whether they were winning or losing at the time.

But whatever, we're in the finals now... let's go get #18.

The team was saying all along that it was bored with the reg season. Not being there menatly and having injuries isn't a good formula for winning a championship. People had good reason to doubt this team going in.

So you identify lack of focus and health as the reasons for doubting the team. Is that enough to make proclamations of this team having no chance to win it all?

Doubts are fine, as long as those doubts are grounded with facts. You can doubt we would be able get healthy. OK, but it wasn't an impossibility as some might have wanted to suggest. In fact, as the 2nd half of the season progressed it was quite evident that we were getting healthier, particularly Garnett. So how much did health actually factor in some claiming that the Celtics had little to no chance?

Focus? Well, the reason for lack of focus being given was because there was some boredom playing the season out (which in my opinion was a bit exaggerated). Wouldn't just reaching the playoffs cure that? I mean, isn't that at all possible?

So people want to doubt, hey that's fine. It's normal... but the conclusions being made by many were just based on inaccurate and incomplete facts. It also ignores that other teams we're competing with also have to stay healthy and be focused during the playoffs.

Rasheed blew by Garnett <-- "Holy crap, Garnett can no longer defend in this league, we're doomed!!!"

This to me was the epitome of flawed conclusions.

What I find funny is how many of us last year when we got fatigued during the playoffs blamed Doc for losing perspective during the season. So we start focusing on getting healthier during the season, and we're going to once again question the strategy?

It's a given that we shouldn't have been losing as much as we did during the 2nd half. But the reasons for what was happening were very identifiable and were correctable. Particularly when you add the 1st half of the season in which were dominating. There was no reason to simply dismiss many of the explanations given, particularly ones based on facts, for what was happening during the second half. You can doubt all you want, but there was no reason for the types of proclamations being made here by some... and it irked me when when many factors were just ignored and dismissed due to convenience of the argument.

And then we go see the "Experts" opinions and laugh at them, when they're pretty much doing what many here are doing or have done.

Agreed,  it was more pessimism (realistic ..)  than anything. It wouldn't have been hard for any real fan to find reasons to believe.  They did just win it in '08 for Heaven's sakes. 

If you honestly didn't think Rondo and 4 future HOFs couldn't make a run well...(it's probably better I leave this off)

[lon3lytoaster]

Shiny stuff.

First page.

[RAcker]

I will come out right now and admit that I was wrong and thought the C's had no chance at getting to the finals. I'm glad to be wrong.

I will also throw out there the thought that the people who did not believe had very good factual reasons not to. We were playing 500 ball most of the season. We were playing worse than that at the end of the season. The team was obviously having chemistry problems. Our rotation was bouncing all over the place. As much credit as I give to those who posted that they still believed we could get to this point, I would also argue that if they were completely honest with themselves it was more HOPE than true belief. If you had to put everything you owned on the line as to who would be in the finals at the end of the regular season I doubt many "believers" would have put the Celtics on the list.

That being said, Crow tastes real good about now. Let's hope the Lakers get drug out to 7 games and we get the rest we need to be healthy.

TP for the honesty.  Most of us are always hoping, but this team was making it very difficult to believe until about half way through that second round.

[celticsclay]

I just read this whole thread today for the first time (skimming a bit) and it was pretty cool. It was really interesting watching the reactions change over time and then finally coming around to reflect the OP's optimism. This has been a really rewarding playoff run and a finals win would make it an even sweeter story. Go Celtics!

[Cman]

The other big thing I've been noticing is that since so many truly believed the Celtics wouldn't do anything, the trend has been to minimize the Celtics' accomplishments and focus more about how the other team came up short.  The Celtics didn't beat the Cavs, LeBron and the Cavs choked.  The Celtics didn't beat the Magic, it was that the Magic didn't show up.

Or, the one that is becoming my personal "favorite"...the Celtics aren't better than their opponents, but they're "tougher" or they've got a "championship mindset" and that's the reason that they're winning.  It's because LeBron and Howard clown so much, that's the reason they lost.  Any and every euphemism besides just, "the Celtics were the better team and I didn't realize it".

Which leads to the other big trend...the "I was wrong but nobody could have seen this coming so I wasn't really wrong" mindset.  I've seen this on the message board, obviously, but even among national writers like Hollinger or Simmons, I've been seeing articles to that effect.  I've seen Budweiser and a couple of others mention it for our family on this site, but really it applies to the national media as well...there WAS information out there, legitimate and supportable info, to suggest that this championship run was very possible. 

I'm willing to give our family here a mulligan since for the most part we aren't professional analysts and fan-dom can often come with a dose of pessimism.  But if you're a professional analyst, especially one that is expected to be strongly analytical like Hollinger, claiming I-wasn't-THAT-wrong-because-nobody-knew is just as weak as changing your story to saying "I knew it all along".

/rant

Can someone provide the quotes from Hollinger and Simmons?
Otherwise its just speculation.

I still haven't seen what this thread was supposed to be about: quotes from *professional* sports writers saying one thing at one point in time, and then those same writers saying something different at a later point in time.

The OP has done a nice job of pulling quotes from various writers into the thread, but so far none of them (that I've seen) contradict earlier or later statements about the team, by that same writer.  In other words, there is ample proof that many writers didn't believe in the Celtics (hats off to Ian Thompsen, though, for his early call that the Finals would be Cs vs. Lakers), but there is as of now no proof that any writers have changed their position.

We'll see if that changes over the course of the next few weeks.  Simmons is the most likely candidate for this IMO. So just a general call: please pull quotes from writers into this thread so we can check them against earlier quotes.