Is MJ top 3 of all time.

[footey]

he's not even a top 3 basketball player.

i agree with a few of your points, however, how can u not have jordan in your top 3?

Easy

Oscar Robertson
Bill Russell
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Larry
Shaq
Sabonis

I guess that's it.  
Minor explanation.....Larry and Magic are in there because had MJ played in the 80s there's no way he wins 6 rings. He gets maybe 2 or 3 just like them

Shaq is there, because had he played with a dominant big I don't think MJ become MJ. He becomes D Wade with more rings.

Sabonis is there because if Mj had entered the league at the age of 30 MJ wouldn't be MJ

This list makes your point of MJ not being a top 3 player even weaker.  Some of your other points are valid. I would drop this point, it is obscuring your others.

[nickagneta]

Couple points:

Jordan actually DID play in the 80's and it could just as easily be said that if great players like Thomas, Dumars, Magic, Worthy and so forth weren't around in the late 80's Jordon would have won 9-10 titles.

Also, does Hakeem Olajuwan not count as a great player in Jordan's era? What about Ewing? Thomas, Dumars, Drexler, Barkley, Robinson? I wouldn't say that Jordan's era was exactly weak. I don't see that Shaq playing in an era with little to no all time great big men can be said to have been able to beat Michael in his prime when Robinson, Ewing, Malone and Hakeem couldn't against Jordan is their prime.

And say what you want about Jordan, but there was only one other player ever who could simply be said to be both the best offensive and defensive player on the floor no matter who he was playing with or against except maybe Chamberlain.

[fairweatherfan]

I'm not sure but I think there are also players that played better at the age he was playing with the Wizards

Kareem is the big one here. 

Couple points:

Jordan actually DID play in the 80's and it could just as easily be said that if great players like Thomas, Dumars, Magic, Worthy and so forth weren't around in the late 80's Jordon would have won 9-10 titles.

Also, does Hakeem Olajuwan not count as a great player in Jordan's era? What about Ewing? Thomas, Dumars, Drexler, Barkley, Robinson? I wouldn't say that Jordan's era was exactly weak. I don't see that Shaq playing in an era with little to no all time great big men can be said to have been able to beat Michael in his prime when Robinson, Ewing, Malone and Hakeem couldn't against Jordan is their prime.

Jordan played against some great players to be sure, but pretty much no great teams during his championship years.  He beat the Lakers and Pistons at the very end of their 80s greatness, and a very solid but not great Jazz team twice.  The Suns, Sonics and Blazers were all very good teams, but were far from all-time great squads.  His closest in-conference rivals were the Knicks and later the Pacers and Heat, none of whom were anywhere near great.  Jordan's Bulls, during the championship years, never had that great opponent like Magic and Larry, Wilt and Russell, and even to a degree Shaq and Duncan, had. 

I don't think this takes away from his individual achievements, but it does support the case that his ring count would have been lower in pretty much any other NBA era.

[fairweatherfan]

Which great team did Shaq beat? Which great center did he have to play against?

The Spurs teams of this decade - they get short shrift because they're small market and never repeated, but they are a legitimately great team.  Shaq played against (and got punked by) Hakeem in the Finals, and at other levels guys like Ewing and Robinson.  Duncan is questionably a center and rarely guarded Shaq, but he's a legit all-time great big man as well.  I'd say all of those guys are better than Clyde Drexler, Joe Dumars, or Reggie Miller, the best players at Jordan's position that he played against in his championship runs.

[chakfu]

Which great team did Shaq beat? Which great center did he have to play against?

None at all, except Duncan/Robinson as has been posted elsewhere.  Shaq's era with the Lakers was weaker than Jordan's.

But no one is calling Shaq top 5 all time - he's squarely in the 2nd tier of great centers with Olajuwon/Kareem, clearly behind Russell/Wilt.   He could be top 10 all time, but no one's putting him in the league of Russell/Bird/Jordan/Magic as a greatest of all time candidate.   The "most dominant" label is definitely true, because of the lack of competition in the early '00s - Duncan/Robinson were the only remotely great centers in the league, and it's no accident that that combo of 2 HOF Centers was the only other team to break through for a title from '99-03.

[Quinn]

This thread should be split.
Into "ESPN is ridiculous" and "MJ-top three NBA players or no?"

[4THQTR]

One thing about jordan not being a top three player:

With the exception of Pippen he never had a very strong supporting cast, yet somehow he always managed to get his teammates to play out of their minds.

Watch all the games of the 91-93 finals (i mean it!) and if you still can make the statement "Jordan never made his teammates better" then I respectfully disagree with your view on the game of basketball.

I think he was one of the most complete players ever and i can't understand how some celtics fans try to take anything away from him by saying he played in a "weak era" when at the same time the very same celtics fans get upset when people discredit more than half their championships with the exact same argument.

[Birdbrain]

Yes, obviously.

[cdif911]

Jordan is #1 ever, sorry.  No single player has done more by himself and made so many around him better.  Seriously, how many coaching titles does Uncle Phil have without MJ?  Some may be quick to say 4, but guess what? He doesn't get the LA job without MJ... Pippen couldn't win a title with a better supporting cast than Jordan ever had in Houston... names like Steve Kerr and John Paxton would be irrelevent if Jordan didn't exist - heck BJ Armstrong was an All-Star...an ALL-STAR with Jordan around

I could continue, but shall not

I lied, one other point, I wonder when people say, oh Jordan played in a watered-down league, they don't play defense anymore, etc. etc. Look around, yes there are more pros, but many are 100x the athletes of the guys in the 40s, 50s, 60s and even 70s... I really think some of the 10th and 11th men on NBA rosters today would be top 100 of all time if they played in the earlier eras...

[wdleehi]

I always put Jordan  number 1.



Of all the guys that lead teams to multiple titles, Jordan is the only one I can think of that is not or did not have a dominate big man.  


2 is Russel.  (to many titles)


3 is Wilt.

4 is Magic

5 is Bird

6 is Kareem

7 is big O

8 is Duncan

9 is Shaq

10 is the Dream



(at least in my head today)

[cdif911]

I always put Jordan  number 1.



Of all the guys that lead teams to multiple titles, Jordan is the only one I can think of that is not or did not have a dominate big man.  


2 is Russel.  (to many titles)


3 is Wilt.

4 is Magic

5 is Bird

6 is Kareem

7 is big O

8 is Duncan

9 is Shaq

10 is the Dream



(at least in my head today)

overall I agree with the list, though I think Kobe may have to sadly sneak in there, and when all is said and done, King James will take his place in the top 10 as well

[wdleehi]

I always put Jordan  number 1.



Of all the guys that lead teams to multiple titles, Jordan is the only one I can think of that is not or did not have a dominate big man.  


2 is Russel.  (to many titles)


3 is Wilt.

4 is Magic

5 is Bird

6 is Kareem

7 is big O

8 is Duncan

9 is Shaq

10 is the Dream



(at least in my head today)

overall I agree with the list, though I think Kobe may have to sadly sneak in there, and when all is said and done, King James will take his place in the top 10 as well

Kobe over who?

Shaq and Duncan are already the two most dominate players of his era. 

The Dream was the 2nd best player behind Jordan in the previous era. 




Lebron (and other younger players) always have a chance to jump up if they do great things.

[fairweatherfan]

Here's my all-timers:

Greatest all-around individual player: Jordan

Greatest all-around team player: Oscar Robertson, in a squeaker over Jordan, Magic, and Bird

Greatest winner: Bill Russell (obviously)

Greatest defensive player: Bill Russell (also obvious)

Most dominant: Wilt in a landslide (sorry Shaq, the #s speak for themselves.  Lead the league in assists this year and we can reopen the discussion)

My top 10 individual players:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Oscar
4. Russell (greatest winner, but too limited offensively to crack the top 3)
5/6. Magic/Bird (they deserve to be tied, and I doubt either one would have it any other way)
7. Kareem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Olajuwon


I agree that LeBron will start climbing this list in a few years, and Kobe may sneak in toward the bottom before he's done.  Right now though that's how I see it.

[Tai]

 

I'd hate to take the high road on basically every single poster in this topic who doesn't think MJ is in the top 3, but I question if people really think MJ isn't top 3 material as opposed to just wanting to slam ESPN. As in, ESPN said MJ's top 3, so you wanna argue he isn't in order to prove ESPN overhypes him because some of you clearly don't like ESPN.

And seriously? Enough about the refs. That's just a slippery and slipperier slope; all the great players in the league have gotten their fair share of calls that they shouldn't have. I don't care if you don't think MJ is even top 10 all-time, but if you involve the refs in your argument, you need to disqualify everyone else in the exact same fashion. Chakfu, I am at least talking to you. Besides, if you didn't specify you were talking about MJ in your first post concerning the refs, I would've thought you were talking about Lebron. SCBirdman, same thing as far as "hanging your tongue out, spreading your legs and dunking.".

And eja, SABONIS? I understand the other players to an extent, but Sabonis? You're insulting more players than simply MJ by putting Sabonis at MJ's level. Come on....

Also, what is all of this about MJ not being able to score in different eras or what not? Wasn't he averaging 20 points with the Wizards at ages 38-39, after being away from the game for four years?! Oh, oh, the Wizards aren't a contending team, that doesn't count, huh? 

Anyways, why have we forgotten to talk about defense on a Celtics board when discussing MJ? As good as he was offensively, he was also a great defender. He was on the 1st all-defense team 9 times and even won a DPOY award.

Magic, Bird? Sure, they averaged more assists and rebounds than MJ, but they didn't come close to averaging MJ's scoring. On the defensive end, I just said MJ was on the 1st all-defense team 9 times, while Bird was only on the 2nd all-defense team 3 times, and Magic Johnson never even made a defensive team! Sorry, Jordan over both of them.

Kareem? Sure, He made the 1st defensive team 5 times and the 2nd defensive team 6 times, but MJ still made that 1st defensive team 4 times more than Kareem. Additionally, MJ averaged more points and assists. Also, even though both 6 titles, Kareem was only Finals MVP for two of them, while MJ was the Finals MVP for all of his. Sorry, I'll have to go with MJ here, too.

Shaq? Shaq's my boy, there's no doubt about that. Thing is, MJ averaged around 6 more points than Shaq, and MJ's averaged nearly twice the assists that Shaq has. On the defensive end, Shaq has never made a 1st all-defense team, only the 2nd all-defense team trice (no typo). MJ's made the 1st all-defense team nine times. Also, MJ has 6 Finals MVPs in 6 titles to Shaq's 3 Finals MVPS in 4 titles. Shaq's still my boy, but I have to take MJ here.

Bill? Well, [dang], I can't use defensive accolades to counter what Bill's done on the defensive end. : ) No doubt Bill Russell's on the of the best defensive players in NBA history. But, as far has offense? First of all, MJ's offensive stats simply destroy Bill's in points and assists. While Bill wasn't ever really the vocal point of the Celtics' offense, MJ was always the #1 offensive option for the Bulls. I take MJ over Bill on this.

So, this leaves Wilt and Oscar Robertson that could arguably be better than MJ. The other players that were mentioned above aren't that worse off than MJ by any means, but I will take MJ over them and I do think MJ is definite top 3 material. 

[cdif911]

I always put Jordan  number 1.



Of all the guys that lead teams to multiple titles, Jordan is the only one I can think of that is not or did not have a dominate big man.  


2 is Russel.  (to many titles)


3 is Wilt.

4 is Magic

5 is Bird

6 is Kareem

7 is big O

8 is Duncan

9 is Shaq

10 is the Dream



(at least in my head today)

overall I agree with the list, though I think Kobe may have to sadly sneak in there, and when all is said and done, King James will take his place in the top 10 as well

Kobe over who?

Shaq and Duncan are already the two most dominate players of his era. 

The Dream was the 2nd best player behind Jordan in the previous era. 




Lebron (and other younger players) always have a chance to jump up if they do great things.

Until the last title, I would have agreed on Kobe, but he proved he can do it without another superstar this year, and the dream's titles were never against MJ...