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Draft Class Tournament
« on: September 06, 2009, 09:36:52 AM »

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Alright. Jeff says that we can save Celticsblog, since he is running out of writing ideas. So, while putting off studying for an exam, let me dust off an old hypothetical debate that could spark some discussion. The scenario is this: if each draft class were to build its own 12-man team, which team would dominate? Remember, we’re not necessarily building an all-star roster, we’re trying to build a team to win (although in older drafts it’s hard because the ones that last tend to be stars).

Here are the rosters and the format (my reasoning for rosters is in the next post). 2 debates: who wins, and perhaps more importantly, what disagreements do you have about the rosters?

1995 and previous (a new category, as no draft classes in this range can form their own teams anymore!)
PG: Kidd
SG: Brent Barry
SF: Grant Hill
PF: KG
C: Shaq
Bench: Lindsey Hunter, Joe Smith, ‘Sheed, Stackhouse, Kurt Thomas, Michael Finley


1996
PG: Nash
SG: Kobe
SF: Ray Allen
PF: Camby
C:  Ilgauskas
Bench: Peja, Derek Fisher, Iverson, Ben Wallace, Jermaine O’neal, Dampier


1997
PG: Billups
SG: McGrady
SF: Stephen Jackson
PF: Croshere
C: Duncan
Bench: Mikkie Moore, Bobby Jackson, Tony Batie, Tim Thomas, Antonio Daniels, Blount


1998
PG: Bibby
SG: Hughes
SF: Pierce
PF: Rashard Lewis
C: Dirk
Bench: Carter, Alston, Mohammad, Harrington, Harpring, Jameson, Brad Millier.
Omissions: Lue, Jason Williams


1999 (now we start to have some wiggle room)
PG: Baron Davis
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Manu
PF: Kirilenko
C:  Brand
Bench: Odom, Posey, Andre Miller, Foster, Chris Anderson, Hamilton, Maggette,
Omissions: Jason Terry, Artest, Marion


2000 (Probably not worth the time)
PG:  Worst
SG:
SF: Draft
PF:
C: Ever
Bench:


2001
PG: Tony Parker
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Battier
PF: Gasol
C: Chandler
Bench: Arenas, Gerald Wallace, Okur, Haywood, Troy Murphy, Richard Jefferson, Jason Richardson,

Omissions: Tinsley, Randolph, Kwame, Curry, Vlad Rad, Mo Evans, Nocioni, Moon, Charlie Bell, Bobby Simmons, Watson, Scal, Hassel, Dalembert


2002
PG: Dixon
SG: Prince
SF: Butler
PF: Amare
C: Ming
Bench: Hilario, Haslem , Scola, John Salmons, Dunleavy, Pargo, Boozer, Pargo,
Omissions: Wilcox, Gooden, Barnes, Jeffries, Krstic, Songaila


2003
PG: Hinrich
SG: Wade
SF: James
PF: Bosh
C: Perkins
Bench: Carmelo Anthony, Mo Williams, Korver , David West, Kaman, Josh Howard, Barbosa

Omissions: Marquis Daniels, Delfino, Pietrus, Bogans, Pachulia, Walton, Kapono, Bonner, Blake, Outlaw, Pietrus Ford, Diaw


2004
PG: Harris
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Iguodala
PF: Big Al
C: Dwight
Bench: Biedrins, Gordon, Deng, Okafor, Ariza, Josh Smith, Delonte

Omissions: Childress, Humpries, Telfair, Tony Allen, Udrih, Vujacic, Verejao


2005
PG: Chris Paul
SG:  Deron Williams
SF: Granger
PF: Turiaf
C: Bogut
Bench: Bynum, Azabuike, Monte Ellis, David Lee, Maxiell, Calderon, Marvin Williams

Omissions: Gerald Green!, Felton, Webster, Villanueva, Warrick, Nate Robinson, Jarrett Jack, Kleiza, Wafer, Gomes, Gortat, Oberto, Blatch, Sean May, McCants, Louis Williams


2006
PG: Rondo
SG: Roy
SF: Ronnie Brewer
PF: Millsap
C: Aldridge
Bench: Gay, Lowry, Bargnani, Balkman, Sefolosha, Foye, Tyrus Thomas.
Omissions: Boone, Shannon Brown, Farmar, Sergio Rodriguez, Craig Smith, Boobie Gibson, Powe


2007
PG: Ramon Sessions
SG: Afflalo
SF: Durant
PF: Horford
C: Oden
Bench: Marc Gasol, Thaddeus Young, Aaron Brooks, Rudy Fernandez, Jeff Green, Stuckey, Landry
Omissions: Glen Davis, Yi, Conley, Corey Brewer, Brandon Wright, Julian Wright, AC Law, Noah, Thornton, Nick Young, Bellinelli, Crittenton, Dudley


2008
PG: Derrick Rose
SG: Gordon
SF: Mbah a Moute
PF: Love
C: Brook Lopez
Bench: Courtney Lee, Westbrook, Jason Thompson, Speights, McGee, Mayo, Randolph
Omissions: hibbert, Bayless, Beasley, Rush, koufos, George hill, Chalmers, Douglas-Roberts, Jordan.



So those are the rosters. 13 total, a wonderfully bad tourney number. For the purposes of this exercise, we will seed the teams from the outside in, since the middle rosters are in their prime and the edges need some help. So here are the seeds:
1 1995
2 2008
3 1996
4 2007
5 1997
6 2006
7 1998
8 2005
9 1999
10 2004
11 2001
12 2003
13 2002

Because there are 13 teams we’ll pretend it’s a 14 team bracket with one consolation buy in.. So it will be like this:

1995 gets a first round bye. First round matchups will be:
A.   2008 vs. 2002
                  D.  Winner A vs.  1995
B.   1997 vs 2004                                      F. Winner D vs. Winner E
                 E. Winner B vs. Winner C
C.   2006 vs. 1999


G.    1996 vs. 2003               
                          J. Winner G vs. Winner H
H.   2007 vs. 2001
                                                           M. Winner J vs. Winner K
I.   1998 vs. 2005
                    K. Winner I vs. winner L
L. Loser A vs. Loser B
(consolation bracket, chance for seeds 1 and 2 to play their way back in)

Championship = Winner F vs. Winner M



Okay, I’m tired, so I’ll leave it up to you. Who wins?

Re: Draft Class Tournament
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2009, 09:37:52 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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And, hopefully to spark some debate, here was the logic behind each roster:

Alright. Jeff says that we can save Celticsblog, since he is running out of writing ideas. So, while putting off studying for an exam, let me dust off an old hypothetical debate that could spark some discussion. The scenario is this: if each draft class were to build its own 12-man team, which team would dominate? Remember, we’re not necessarily building an all-star roster, we’re trying to build a team to win (although in older drafts it’s hard because the ones that last tend to be stars).

1995 and previous (a new category, as no draft classes in this range can form their own teams anymore!)
PG: Kidd
SG: Brent Barry
SF: Grant Hill
PF: KG
C: Shaq
Bench: Lindsey Hunter, Joe Smith, ‘Sheed, Stackhouse, Kurt Thomas, Michael Finley

Positives: “Veteran Leadership” galore, and plenty of size and rebounding

Negatives: Their point guard is designed for up temp play, and this team is the opposite of up tempo.  Very thin at 1-3, unless you plan on playing a lot of Lindsey Hunter. You could say that they’re probably going to be a step slow across the board with the hopeful exception of ‘Sheed and KG.


1996
PG: Nash
SG: Kobe
SF: Ray Allen
PF: Camby
C:  Ilgauskas
Bench: Peja, Derek Fisher, Iverson, Ben Wallace, Jermaine O’neal, Dampier
 
Positives:  Okay distribution of talent. Decided to start Ilgauskas with Camby to combine some defense with offensive prowess. Hopefully with Nash you can keep a lot of the offensive load off of Kobe, because they need his backcourt defense desperately.

Negatives: Aside from Camby and Kobe, very questionable defensively. Considering the slippage of Peja, Jermaine, and Wallace, very thing bench. Also have to consider the volatility of Iverson on the bench. Sadly, this used to be one of the most compelling teams, when the players were at their peaks and Antoine, Marbury, and Abdur-Rahim were actual players.




1997
PG: Billups
SG: McGrady
SF: Stephen Jackson
PF: Croshere
C: Duncan
Bench: Mikkie Moore, Bobby Jackson, Tony Batie, Tim Thomas, Antonio Daniels, Blount

Notes: I don’t think 1997 can field a team anymore. They used to be a very intriguing squad, with a balance of stars at the 1, 3, 5 spot (Billups, McGrady, Duncan) that could really lock down on D (Duncan, Jackson, Billups) and had some nice useful role players (Bobby J=sixth man, Thomas could shoot, Antonio Daniels for defense, Van Horn, Fortson for Rebounding). They were a decently balanced squad. Unfortunately, McGrady is questionable at best, and I don’t think you could fill out the above roster with these guys any more:
Troy Hudson, Mikki Moore, Pollard, Bobby Jackson, Fortson, Foyle, Tim Thomas, Antonio Daniels, Batie, Van Horn, Mark Blount


1998
PG: Bibby
SG: Hughes
SF: Pierce
PF: Rashard Lewis
C: Dirk
Bench: Carter, Alston, Mohammad, Harrington, Harpring, Jameson, Brad Millier.
Omissions: Lue, Jason Williams
Notes: Patterson used to be useful for his D, but he’s out these days. In fact, anyone could be useful for his D on this team, which is why Hughes gets the nod over Carter. Don’t really need more offense, so anyone who can play a semblance of D would help. Because of this lack, I designed the team to try to play a bit small and run the floor and hope that the uniqueness of Rashard and Dirk can carry them through.


1999 (now we start to have some wiggle room)
PG: Baron Davis
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Manu
PF: Kirilenko
C:  Brand
Bench: Odom, Posey, Andre Miller, Foster, Chris Anderson, Hamilton, Maggette,
Omissions: Jason Terry, Artest, Marion
Notes: A lot of lineup options here, but here’s how I feel today. We know that when motivated and on a good team, Baron is still one of the best players in the game, so he gets the starting point assignment over Andre Miller (remember when it was an impossible 3-way debate between Davis, Miller, and Francis?). Since Baron thrives in an up tempo setting, let’s move Kirilenko back to the 4 spot so he can run and finish plays and get back to his 5x5 success he had at the 4 before having to move to SF. Let’s get some Defense going. I don’t think we can get away with Kirilenko and Foster (the only true 5) at the 4/5, so let’s stick with up-tempo and let Brand play there. He can body up on opposing centers and he’ll provide some frontcourt post moves in half court sets. I opted to put Odom, Posey and Artest on the bench to start, because they all play the same SF/PF position as Kirilenko, but AK is still a better defender at this point, as Artest has slipped guarding SF’s and we don’t really need his boneheaded shots on our starting offense. Put Manu at SF as he’s a great overall player, and put Bell at shooting guard for his role of not requiring a lot of touches, his defense, and his long range shooting. Now we need 7 bench players. We know that Odom and Posey can come off the bench, and they’re versatile, so they’re in. In fact, I really could be convinced to start Odom either instead of AK or put Odom at the 3 and move Manu to the 2. However, I really want Manu in the starting lineup, and want a role player like Bell in there too, and like the idea of AK getting back to playing PF and running. Miller stays as the backup point, and you could even play him and Baron at the same time occasionally. Keep Foster as he’s a true center and a great rebounder (you could start him and Brand for a more traditional approach or him and Odom for inside/outside at the 4 / 5). Terry seems redundant considering the offense already there. We’ll keep Andersen as a backup 5 that could really thrive in a running game. Let’s drop Artest considering the versatility at the 3 /4 and thus avoid his potential insanity. And finally, let’s drop Marion since he’s redundant as well, has slipped significantly, and has publicly stated that he’d rather “get his” on a bad team than play a part for a winner. That allows us to keep Hamilton, who we know can play a role on good teams, and Maggette, who can be a situational slasher great at getting to the line.



2000 (Probably not worth the time)
PG:  Worst
SG:
SF: Draft
PF:
C: Ever
Bench:

Notes: not wasting my time, since the only centers are Przybilla (who I do actually like, but still) and Magloire. Plus the starting point will be from this group: Eddie House, Dooling, Jamal Crawford, Speedy Claxton, Marko Jaric. Additionally, the wing defense will have to come from: Darius Miles, Mike Miller, Redd, or Hedu. Unless you want to start Des Mason. Ouch.


2001
PG: Tony Parker
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Battier
PF: Gasol
C: Chandler
Bench: Arenas, Gerald Wallace, Okur, Haywood, Troy Murphy, Richard Jefferson, Jason Richardson,

Omissions: Tinsley, Randolph, Kwame, Curry, Vlad Rad, Mo Evans, Nocioni, Moon, Charlie Bell, Bobby Simmons, Watson, Scal, Hassel, Dalembert


Notes: Start with the PG spot, Tony gets it over Arenas due to health and demonstrated team success. We’ll keep Arenas around, though, because if he’s healthy again he could be a great sixth man spark. Joe Johnson starts, he’s one of the best overall players here. Now a decision point. Do we go slow? If so, you can put Jefferson at the 3, with Gasol at the 4 and Haywood or Chandler at the 5 spot. Regardless, let’s put Battier at the 3 for his defense and and general ability to do all the little things while surrounded by stars. If we go small, we would Okur or Murphy at the 4 where their shooting can space the floor for the slashers to work and Gasol to work on the post. We could even go Suns on them, and move Wallace to the 4 and start Battier, Jefferson, or Richardson. In fact, tomorrow I might decide to do that, but oh well. In the end, I think we’ll throw Chandler in the starting lineup so that there’s a shot blocker/rebounder to balance the offense from the other positions. Now, let’s of course drop Tinsley, Kwame, Dip, Scal, Vlad Rad, and Curry. Let’s also drop Randolph; he’s not needed considering his major negatives. I want to keep a defender for the bench (besides Wallace), but Simmons, Watson, and Hassel just can’t cut it anymore, so they’re out. Jefferson, Chandler and Haywood are in. Murphy’s in for his rebounding and scoring. That means Mo Evans, Nocioni, Moon, Bell, Scal and Dalembert are out, but I’m okay with that since none of those bring anything someone else can’t provide.


2002
PG: Dixon
SG: Prince
SF: Butler
PF: Amare
C: Ming
Bench: Hilario, Haslem , Scola, John Salmons, Dunleavy, Pargo, Boozer, Pargo,
Omissions: Wilcox, Gooden, Barnes, Jeffries, Krstic, Songaila

Notes: I really am trying to find players who can fill roles. I am. But it’s hard. Except for Prince, no one in this draft is good at defense. Jeffries is ok, but his offense is so laughably bad you can’t start him. Haslem hustles, but he’s not much of a defender. We have to start Amare because he’s that good on offense; let’s hope Ming heals and can defend the rim and rebound. Butler starts; he may be the best overall player from this draft, and Prince starts, mainly for his D and versatility. I guess we put Dixon at the point? Lesser of 3 evils, right? Hard to say if Pargo or Murray are any better. If Ming is injured, we’ll start Hilario, so he makes the bench. As does Jeffries, for though he’s absolutely useless on offense, this team doesn’t need any more offense and could use defense wherever they can get it. Haslem makes it for his willingness to bang. Salmons and Dunleavy provide versatility at the wings. We need one backup point, I’d go with Pargo over Murray at this point. Boozer is the best player left. Between him, Ming, Amare, and Hilario, we might get a full season’s worth of PF/C. So we’ll take him, as he can score and eat up rebounds. That leaves Scola as a tough omission. I’d probably take him over Jeffries, actually. Yeah, I will. I know defense is important and all that, but Jeffries is just terrible.


2003
PG: Hinrich
SG: Wade
SF: James
PF: Bosh
C: Perkins
Bench: Carmelo Anthony, Mo Williams, Korver , David West, Kaman, Josh Howard, Barbosa

Omissions: Marquis Daniels, Delfino, Pietrus, Bogans, Pachulia, Walton, Kapono, Bonner, Blake, Outlaw, Pietrus Ford, Diaw

Notes: Start with Wade and James. Bosh has to start at PF. Now, that’s a ton of offense and ball handling domination. First debate is point guard. I’m going with Hinrich here as he’s noticeably better on defense than Ford, Barbosa, or Williams. Ford is out of the running as he’s the wrong fit. This team needs a shooter at the point, not  a slasher who can’t shoot that well. Between Williams and Barbosa, Williams gets the edge as he’s pretty much better across the board. But Hinrich starts in this case because he’s a good enough long range shooter to keep defenses honest, he’s a very good defender, and he does a lot of stuff out there.  At Center, there’s basically 4 options. You could slide Bosh to the five and start David West, but Bosh gets slammed at the five. You could start Kaman, who I do actually like, but he’s not known for his defense and this team has a lot of firepower out there. You could go the “floor spacer” route and start Bonner. Or you could go with Perkins. No contest, as Perkins has molded himself into one of the better big man defenders around, which is exactly what this team needs.  Then, Anthony’s the obvious 6th man, as you can move Lebron to the 4 or Wade to the 1 depending on the situation. Mo Williams takes the backup point spot, and Korver makes it for his shooting. David West is the most viable backup PF; Kaman’s our bench Center. Two spots left, and lots of good players. We need a defensive stopper on the wings. Ross is a good defender, but he’s just not good enough to make the cut. Neither is Bogans. I like Pietrus, but he hasn’t really come into his own as a great defender; neither has Outlaw. So we’ll go with Josh Howard, and just ask him to defend and do the little things. He can be a great role player if you don’t ask more than he can give. For the last spot, I want to go with Diaw. He’s a very good facilitator and versatile frontcourt defender. Good for a team of scorers and as a potential emergency injury replacement. However, basically all of our wings are more the SF type, so we’ll go with Barbosa. Between Williams, Hinrich and Barbosa, there will always be shooters to fill in the 1 and 2 spots.



2004
PG: Harris
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Iguodala
PF: Big Al
C: Dwight
Bench: Biedrins, Gordon, Deng, Okafor, Ariza, Josh Smith, Delonte

Omissions: Childress, Humpries, Telfair, Tony Allen, Udrih, Vujacic, Verejao

Notes: PF and C are easy. No question. Harris is the best point guard in the draft, and he’s a very good defender as well. Martin is the perfect deadly shooting 2 guard to help space the floor, and Iguodala is a very good wing defender to start at the SF spot and we won’t ask him to do a lot on offense. And Ariza is ready to take his place if he pouts about it. Biedrins makes the bench as a great defender, rebounder, and high efficiency scorer. Gordon still fills his traditional 3 pt bomber off the bench role. Ariza makes it for his all-around play, and Deng, though an overall disappointment so far in his career, makes it too by virtue of his versatility. Okafor is safe too thanks to his size, rebounding, and D (Very strong frontcourt that year, no?). No need for Verajao with all the other PF/C’s on the roster. We need two out of the foursome of: Josh Smith, JR Smith, Delonte, Duhon. I’ll take Delonte because this team could always use shooters to balance it’s frontcourt. Then out of knuckleheaded Smiths, I’ll take Josh, the better athlete.





2005
PG: Chris Paul
SG:  Deron Williams
SF: Granger
PF: Turiaf
C: Bogut
Bench: Bynum, Azabuike, Monte Ellis, David Lee, Maxiell, Calderon, Marvin Williams
Omissions: Gerald Green!, Felton, Webster, Villanueva, Warrick, Nate Robinson, Jarrett Jack, Kleiza, Wafer, Gomes, Gortat, Oberto, Blatch, Sean May, McCants, Louis Williams

Notes: Until Bynum demonstrates he can stay healthy, Bogut gets the nod to start. Chris Paul’s the best player from the draft, he starts. In fact, I’ll start Deron Williams too, since he’s probably got the size to defend most shooting guards, and Paul and Williams can both shoot and handle the ball. I’m going to start Turiaf at PF, as he’s a very good defender, is very tough, provides a nice complement to Bogut’s more offense/passing game. Granger is clearly the best all-around SF in this draft, so he starts there. Bynum makes the bench since he could eventually start for this team. Azabuike is an excellent shooting SF, he stays. Monte’s a nice combo guard off the bench, and Lee is a great rebounder, so he’s got a valuable role to fill. Three spots left. One for an emergency 5th energy big for Maxiell. Calderon makes it for further backcourt depth. Last spot we’ll put Marvin Williams. Hasn’t lived up to the hype for his draft spot, but he’s athletic, versatile, and he’s really improved his shooting. Gortat may make this team someday, and Blatche, Louis Williams, Villanueva all have a shot too.



2006
PG: Rondo
SG: Roy
SF: Ronnie Brewer
PF: Millsap
C: Aldridge
Bench: Gay, Lowry, Bargnani, Balkman, Sefolosha, Foye, Tyrus Thomas.
Omissions: Boone, Shannon Brown, Farmar, Sergio Rodriguez, Craig Smith, Boobie Gibson, Powe

Notes: Pretty much forced to put Aldridge at center. That means this team will hopefully be uptempo. He’s a good shooter though, and should allow Millsap to do his dirty work. Rondo will start at PG, providing his defense and slashing speed. Roy’s the best overall player from the draft and he gets the start at SG. It’d be really nice to have a defensive ace at SF. Sefolosha isn’t there yet, and Balkman’s not as good overall as Brewer, so we’ll put Ronnie Brewer there. Lowry will be the backup point. Gay’s too talented to leave off. Bargnani stays for his size and interchangeability with Aldridge. Balkman and Sefolosha make it for their willingness to play needed roles and defend. Foy and Tyrus Thomas round out the roster.















2007
PG: Ramon Sessions
SG: Afflalo
SF: Durant
PF: Horford
C: Oden
Bench: Marc Gasol, Thaddeus Young, Aaron Brooks, Rudy Fernandez, Jeff Green, Stuckey, Landry
Omissions: Glen Davis, Yi, Conley, Corey Brewer, Brandon Wright, Julian Wright, AC Law, Noah, Thornton, Nick Young, Bellinelli, Crittenton, Dudley


Notes: Horford and Durant are easy. Then I’m going to put Oden at Center. He’s on a steep upward trend and can play defense. But at this point it’s close between him and Marc Gasol, so Gasol definitely makes the bench. Aaron Brooks proved last playoffs to be a dynamic and disruptive PG force, so he’s our backup PG. Jeff Green definitely makes the cut as a player who can do a little bit of everything.  Carl Landry and Thaddeus Young have to make the bench; Landry is a very efficient player and very good defender, while Young is a very dynamic player. For our backcourt, we’ll start Sessions at the point because he’s really good at setting up scorers; with Durant and Horford, that’s a plus. For shooting guard, it came down to Fernandez, Corey Brewer, Nick Young, Stuckey, and Afflalo. Stuckey, at this point, isn’t a defender and hasn’t figured out how to score without driving and dominating the ball. Not ok for part of this starting lineup. Nick Young can’t do anything except shoot. I like Fernandez, he’s definitely on the bench, but he’s not much of a defender, and with Durant at one wing spot we need a defender, at least until Durant figures that part out. Brewer and Afflalo can’t do anything but defend at this point, but we do need a defender. Afflalo is better suited at the 2 guard so he’ll start. Stuckey and Fernandez definitely make the bench, and one will likely end up starting for this team down the road, when either they or some other players improve their defense.







2008
PG: Derrick Rose
SG: Gordon
SF: Mbah a Moute
PF: Love
C: Brook Lopez
Bench: Courtney Lee, Westbrook, Jason Thompson, Speights, McGee
Omissions:
Mayo, Augustin, Bayless, , Anthony Randolph, Brandon Rush,, hibbert, , koufos, George hill, Chalmers, Douglas-Roberts, Jordan.

Notes: Start with Rose at point. Mayo is tempting at the 2 spot, but he dominates the ball so much, but this team will be better with Rose handling the ball. I don’t yet trust Mayo to fit in on a good team. Westbrook was also tempting, but he’s really shifting into PG, and I don’t want two guards with shaky shots. Therefore, SG could be Courtney Lee or Gordon. Obviously Gordon is the better player, but Lee is a great defender. However, there’s no great SF on this roster (until Beasley or Randolph officially figure things out), so we have to go defense there with Mbah a Moute, so we could use Gordon at the 2. I think that Love and Brook Lopez were clearly the best fits at the 4-5. For the Bench, Lee and Westbrook definitely make it. Our three bench big men will be Jason Thompson, Speights, and McGee. For the last two spots, we’ll take a chance on Mayo as a combo guard, and we’ll go with Randolph as our upside athlete, at least until Beasley either becomes dominant enough that we have to start him and build around him, or he demonstrates he can do what needs to be done to befit in on a winning team with other great players.

Re: Draft Class Tournament
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2009, 09:39:20 AM »

Offline lon3lytoaster

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2003?