25 Greatest Celtics of All-Time : #7

[hardlyyardley]

cowens
jones
sharman

[nickagneta]

...
Listen I love Cowens and Pierce and Parish but it's time to start giving Jones and Sharman their due.

I think Cowens is already too low. Neither Sharman nor Jones were ever the face of a championship team, or league MVP. Pierce is the face of a champion, Finals MVP, and he`s also 3rd on the Celtics` all-time scoring list.

Scoring lots of points on really bad teams....scoring lots of points on championship teams...I'll take the lots of points on championship teams.

Pierce is the third on the C's all time points list but relative to his era, he isn't nearly the player of skill or importance that Sharman and Jones were to their teams and their eras. Sharman was a 4 time 1st team All-NBA. Pierce did a 2nd team All-NBA once, this year. Sharman twice was in the top 6 for MVP votes. Pierce never. Sam Jones was a 4 time 2nd team All-NBA and 3 times finished in the top 10 for MVP. The only reason Jones isn't much higher on all the Celtics records in scoring is because he sat behind Cousy and was the C's 4th scoring option for much of the first half of his career.

[Celtics Girl]

Paul Pierce
Dave Cowens
Robert Parish

[Casperian]

Scoring lots of points on really bad teams....scoring lots of points on championship teams...I'll take the lots of points on championship teams.

Pierce is the third on the C's all time points list but relative to his era, he isn't nearly the player of skill or importance that Sharman and Jones were to their teams and their eras. Sharman was a 4 time 1st team All-NBA. Pierce did a 2nd team All-NBA once, this year. Sharman twice was in the top 6 for MVP votes. Pierce never. Sam Jones was a 4 time 2nd team All-NBA and 3 times finished in the top 10 for MVP. The only reason Jones isn't much higher on all the Celtics records in scoring is because he sat behind Cousy and was the C's 4th scoring option for much of the first half of his career.

Hard to argue with that.
I would say that it was much easier to get an all-nba nomination back then, considering that the league had less teams. And no matter the all-nba nominations, Cowens was MVP, which is a step above all-league honors, and the leader of a two-time champion. So, in the grand scheme of things, Iīm inclined to give him the nod over a 4th option who won ten rings. And you can say Pierce made his points on crappy teams, but unlike many others, he actually made the points. His lack of all-nba honors is more a sign of disrespect from the league and media than his lack of skills, or how do you explain his nomination this year? Was last season Pierceīs best season ever?

Generally, I think being the face of the Celtics for over a decade has to count for more than being the 4th option from the bench, or would you put Robert Horry above KG, just because he won more Rings?

[nickagneta]

Scoring lots of points on really bad teams....scoring lots of points on championship teams...I'll take the lots of points on championship teams.

Pierce is the third on the C's all time points list but relative to his era, he isn't nearly the player of skill or importance that Sharman and Jones were to their teams and their eras. Sharman was a 4 time 1st team All-NBA. Pierce did a 2nd team All-NBA once, this year. Sharman twice was in the top 6 for MVP votes. Pierce never. Sam Jones was a 4 time 2nd team All-NBA and 3 times finished in the top 10 for MVP. The only reason Jones isn't much higher on all the Celtics records in scoring is because he sat behind Cousy and was the C's 4th scoring option for much of the first half of his career.

Hard to argue with that.
I would say that it was much easier to get an all-nba nomination back then, considering that the league had less teams. And no matter the all-nba nominations, Cowens was MVP, which is a step above all-league honors, and the leader of a two-time champion. So, in the grand scheme of things, Iīm inclined to give him the nod over a 4th option who won ten rings. And you can say Pierce made his points on crappy teams, but unlike many others, he actually made the points. His lack of all-nba honors is more a sign of disrespect from the league and media than his lack of skills, or how do you explain his nomination this year? Was last season Pierceīs best season ever?

Generally, I think being the face of the Celtics for over a decade has to count for more than being the 4th option from the bench, or would you put Robert Horry above KG, just because he won more Rings?

Are you trying to say that Sam Jones and Robert Horry are in the same class of player? Because if not then your argument makes no sense and if you are then.....well....

All-NBA honors are as difficult to make now as then because, real simple, you have to be the best at your position in the entire league that year. The amount of teams does not matter.

I will give you Cowens possibly being higher than Sharman and Jones, maybe, it's close. But Pierce. No way. Especially over Jones who was as good a two way player and clutch shooter as you will find. Pierce may have had the ability to play defense but didn't decide to do it until two seasons ago. Also, put Jones on a bad team from day one where he was a first or second scoring option and he might have been one of the greatest scorers in league history. He was a 6'4" scoring PG in the mold of Oscar Robertson who could do everything. I think people forget just how transcendent players like Sharman, who was one of the first great outside shooters ever, and Jones, one of the very first big PGs ever, were.

[Casperian]

Are you trying to say that Sam Jones and Robert Horry are in the same class of player? Because if not then your argument makes no sense and if you are then.....well....

All-NBA honors are as difficult to make now as then because, real simple, you have to be the best at your position in the entire league that year. The amount of teams does not matter.

I will give you Cowens possibly being higher than Sharman and Jones, maybe, it's close. But Pierce. No way. Especially over Jones who was as good a two way player and clutch shooter as you will find. Pierce may have had the ability to play defense but didn't decide to do it until two seasons ago. Also, put Jones on a bad team from day one where he was a first or second scoring option and he might have been one of the greatest scorers in league history. He was a 6'4" scoring PG in the mold of Oscar Robertson who could do everything. I think people forget just how transcendent players like Sharman, who was one of the first great outside shooters ever, and Jones, one of the very first big PGs ever, were.

Haha, no, I am not saying that Horry is comparable to Jones, it was a point about championships vs. class of a player, albeit a bad one. I have Jones at #8 on my personal list, so I understand your argument. But I donīt know if all-league honors do say anything. There were so many head-scratchers and Kobe on all-defensive teams in the last years, that I probably give not enough credit to these nominations (which is unfair, I know, since they meant more back then).

The rest, however, is a case of shoulda woulda coulda. Jones wasnīt the best player on these teams, and if he would have played for another team, he wouldnīt be on this list. Pierce was the best player during our dark times, and he was finals MVP when we won the championship. Itīs not as if he doesnīt have an argument for the Celtics top 10.

There are people who donīt even have Cowens in their top 10, which is far more shocking than to place Pierce above Jones, imo.
I guess people feel as if Jones was more replacable on the teams he played for than Pierce was on his. So, not to take anything away from your argument, but different people means different opinions, thatīs why this poll even exists.

But Iīll give you a TP for the good argument pro-Jones and Sharman that youīve brought up. Itīs just not enough for this young grasshopper to give them the nod over the Captain aand the Truth.

[PaulPierce34]

Pierce
Cowens
Sam Jones

[nickagneta]

Are you trying to say that Sam Jones and Robert Horry are in the same class of player? Because if not then your argument makes no sense and if you are then.....well....

All-NBA honors are as difficult to make now as then because, real simple, you have to be the best at your position in the entire league that year. The amount of teams does not matter.

I will give you Cowens possibly being higher than Sharman and Jones, maybe, it's close. But Pierce. No way. Especially over Jones who was as good a two way player and clutch shooter as you will find. Pierce may have had the ability to play defense but didn't decide to do it until two seasons ago. Also, put Jones on a bad team from day one where he was a first or second scoring option and he might have been one of the greatest scorers in league history. He was a 6'4" scoring PG in the mold of Oscar Robertson who could do everything. I think people forget just how transcendent players like Sharman, who was one of the first great outside shooters ever, and Jones, one of the very first big PGs ever, were.

Haha, no, I am not saying that Horry is comparable to Jones, it was a point about championships vs. class of a player, albeit a bad one. I have Jones at #8 on my personal list, so I understand your argument. But I donīt know if all-league honors do say anything. There were so many head-scratchers and Kobe on all-defensive teams in the last years, that I probably give not enough credit to these nominations (which is unfair, I know, since they meant more back then).

The rest, however, is a case of shoulda woulda coulda. Jones wasnīt the best player on these teams, and if he would have played for another team, he wouldnīt be on this list. Pierce was the best player during our dark times, and he was finals MVP when we won the championship. Itīs not as if he doesnīt have an argument for the Celtics top 10.

There are people who donīt even have Cowens in their top 10, which is far more shocking than to place Pierce above Jones, imo.
I guess people feel as if Jones was more replacable on the teams he played for than Pierce was on his. So, not to take anything away from your argument, but different people means different opinions, thatīs why this poll even exists.

But Iīll give you a TP for the good argument pro-Jones and Sharman that youīve brought up. Itīs just not enough for this young grasshopper to give them the nod over the Captain aand the Truth.

TP back to you for the debate. I just think that so many fans, especially younger ones get to see Pierce everyday and judge him to be great without ever having seen many of the older players and hence just think "bigger, stronger, more modern = better"

For instance, my son, who is now 21, and I were watching on ESPN Classic some 1984 Finals games a few years back and after watching those games my son turned to me and said, and I quote:

"Those guys would kill the teams playing today. They aren't as muscular but they are just so much better all around it's ridiculous".

I think were we watching this shortly after the SA-Cleveland Finals so you have some perspective as to what he was comparing it to.

[stoyko]

Macauley
Sam Jones
KC Jones

[albas89]

- Paul Pierce
- Sam Jones
- Dave Cowens

[Celtic#9]

Scalibrine
Pierce
Cowens

[Casperian]

"Those guys would kill the teams playing today. They aren't as muscular but they are just so much better all around it's ridiculous".

I think were we watching this shortly after the SA-Cleveland Finals so you have some perspective as to what he was comparing it to.

I would agree with your son. I have yet to see a better passer than Larry Bird, for example.

[JSD]

Cowens
Pierce
Parrish

[Casperian]

Poll is closed.

[nickagneta]

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