How did our team get so screwed up?

[mgent]

So my question is this.  A player signs at $8 million a year and doesn't get to the finals, or signs for $5 million a year and wins a title.  Aren't they going to make about the same amount of money, considering the possible bonuses and endorsements for winning a title?  So they may end up making about $8 million a year anyway?

Or what if a player like Wade signs for $5 million a year, he gets a few other great player around him, and now has a chance to build a dynasty.  He wins like 3 or 4 titles in a row and goes down in history as one of the great basketball dynasties of the era.  In the long run, even after Wade's career is over, people will still talk about how he was on a dynasty and won 3 or 4 in a row.  Will he end up making close to as much money as if he signed a big contract for a .500 team and never made it to the finals again for the rest of his career?

It doesn't even have to be that extreme.  If KG and Pierce had 15mil each and Allen had maybe 12, we would've had plenty of room.  Rondo and Perk would be making somewhere between 3-7mil, and that would leave room for a couple of good back-ups and several decent reserves.  No one would be worrying that people like Rasheed Wallace is too much.

[mgent]

Just to summarize, we can basically go 1 of 2 ways.  I personally believe if we extend our starters for the next 3 years (end of KG's contract), no matter what our bench looks like, we will have a good chance of winning.  In order to give us the favor, we will at least need some core support like we had in 08 (Posey, House, Brown, Davis, Powe).  Unfortunately, extending the starters will give us NO room.  If we don't extend, in the year after next we will have room to work with as several large contracts expire (Allen, House, Scal, and TA).  We could still be a top team with a new SG and a couple of decent back-ups, but we'd be taking a chance whereas we can pretty much guarantee Allen (and Pierce) aren't gonna suck in the next 3 years (probably after that though).  In order to give us bench support we would probably need to make a trade though, the tough part would be finding a team willing to make it (keep Powe and House, maybe Hudson and trade Scal, TA, Davis, Giddens, Walker, and Pruitt for some sort of center and PG).

Or we could
* Offer an MLE and LLE a 1 year contract
* Hold off on extending Rondo
* Let go of Davis if he gets a multi year contract
* Have $12MM to spend on a FA next year.   

That might not be popular, but it is an option.

I'd rather go all in, extend Ray for two years ... and use the cap flexibility of Scalabrine, Allen, etc to get a legitimate 6th man.

I don't quite see how that would work, where are we getting 12mil?
Your problem with extending Ray is, you'd still be way over the cap.  So even if we drop Scal and Tony we won't be able to sign anyone other than another MLE.

[timepiece33]

I don't quite see how that would work, where are we getting 12mil?
Your problem with extending Ray is, you'd still be way over the cap.  So even if we drop Scal and Tony we won't be able to sign anyone other than another MLE.

We currently have $44.7MM in allocated salaries (http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm) in 2010/2011 with the cap last year being at $58.7MM (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm). I believe the cap went down a million ($13MM) and I assume we are going to draft someone ($1MM).  That's how you come up with $12MM.   

We have that money, which is why Wyc said we could go after a "max guy".  What we'd have to do this offseason to keep that flexibility might not be popular. I'd rather not go down that route. 

Now, if we extend Ray ... I'm assuming that it will be for considerably less than his salary.  In fact, I'm comfortable that both Ray and Rajon will go for their current combined salary now. 

[ScalPal]

The solution is easy, just not popular with Celtics fans who want it all: trade Ray Allen for 3 good to very good bench players with decent contracts.

Amen!!!

He's our worst starter, for the dollars he gets paid, and is progressively getting worse.

I love Ray and his beautiful stroke but if there is a trade that helps in the short and long term to improve overall depth and quality Ainge has to move him.

[timepiece33]

The solution is easy, just not popular with Celtics fans who want it all: trade Ray Allen for 3 good to very good bench players with decent contracts.

Amen!!!

He's our worst starter, for the dollars he gets paid, and is progressively getting worse.

I love Ray and his beautiful stroke but if there is a trade that helps in the short and long term to improve overall depth and quality Ainge has to move him.

Depends who the three players are.

His 17.34 PER puts him at the top 12 in his position AND his outside shooting is a perfect complement to our two stars (Garnett and Pierce).

Who do you guys have in mind?   

[mgent]

The solution is easy, just not popular with Celtics fans who want it all: trade Ray Allen for 3 good to very good bench players with decent contracts.

Except the C's greatest strength is that they have the best starting 5 in basketball.  Make that 1 for 3 trade and that's no longer the case. 

Depth is overrated.  Danny just need to tell Doc to rest the starters, bench be [dang]ed.  San Antonio did this for years.  They didn't always have the best record, but they got a high seed and competed for the finals.

And that's worst case scenario.  It's plenty possible the C's get a guy like McDyess/Wallace/Smith/Gooden and a Hill/Bowen type, have the starters, have the bench, and challenge the Bulls for the best record of all time. 

People are getting nuts here.  I was ****ed Posey left.  However, he's not the reason the C's didn't win.  KG's injury was.  Even with their crappy bench last year they would've won the title had KG stayed healthy.  Get a decent bench, keep the starters healthy, and #18 will come. 

No need to trade Ray. 

I agree with the screw depth rest the starters depth be [dang]ed. Except that I believe when you force feed a young player time with good players they will advance quickly, see Big Baby. So if we give Giddens/Walker some legit minutes regardless of results maybe they are going to be that much better for the playoffs. We really need to play one of two this year, because free agents are good but the best way is to grow internally.

The best time to have played them would've been last year, so we'd already know who to get rid of.  Apparently they had something else in mind though.  You are correct though, if you remember back to the 05-07 seasons that's exactly what happened.

[mgent]

I don't quite see how that would work, where are we getting 12mil?
Your problem with extending Ray is, you'd still be way over the cap.  So even if we drop Scal and Tony we won't be able to sign anyone other than another MLE.

We currently have $44.7MM in allocated salaries (http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm) in 2010/2011 with the cap last year being at $58.7MM (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm). I believe the cap went down a million ($13MM) and I assume we are going to draft someone ($1MM).  That's how you come up with $12MM.   

We have that money, which is why Wyc said we could go after a "max guy".  What we'd have to do this offseason to keep that flexibility might not be popular. I'd rather not go down that route. 

Now, if we extend Ray ... I'm assuming that it will be for considerably less than his salary.  In fact, I'm comfortable that both Ray and Rajon will go for their current combined salary now. 

Yes sir, however that 44 million only includes a roster of 3 guys (doesn't include the option for Rondo).  So even if you took a 12mil FA and a probably very low draft pick, you'd have no bench and you'd have lost two of the best guards in the NBA.
Your second idea is probably a better idea.  Extending Ray and Rondo are good ideas, but without a trade of our bench we still won't have decent support because our will cap only allow us to sign a Mid-Level a year, which is a risk at best, and we can't be sure we won't lose more guys to free agency.

[mgent]

I'll agree with you on one thing.  I never understood why the great players always have to have huge contracts.  If you demand or sign for a huge contract the team doesn't have that much in salary cap left to sign other great players.  Lets just suppose Dwayne Wade signs a 5 year contract at $6 million a year.  I understand he is worth way more, but doesn't that give him a better chance to be on a team that has a chance to win championships.  Yes $20 million a year is $14 million more per year than $6 million, but $6 million is still a lot of money, its not like you are poor.  You are still getting $6 million a year for playing basketball.  99.9999% of the people in this country would be more than happy with that. You can do just about as much with your life at $6 million as you can with $20 million either way you are still going to be rich.  But nobody does it. Every big star gets a huge contract.  I only heard of one example way back in the day of a big player lowering his contract to sign better talent.  I think it was Magic Johnson in the early 90's or something so they could sign Sedalle Threat or somebody like that I can't remember exactly, but I haven't heard of many examples that is for sure.
Now I have one question to ask, James Posey left to sign for more money in NO. What if he signed for less in Boston, then won another championship.  Would he get more money for winning the title in bonuses and possible endorsements? And would it be possible for him to actually make more money signing for Boston for less and winning another title, then signing for more in New Orleans and not getting to the finals.  Let me know.  Thanks.

I'll agree with you on one thing.  I never understood why the great players always have to have huge contracts.  If you demand or sign for a huge contract the team doesn't have that much in salary cap left to sign other great players.  Lets just suppose Dwayne Wade signs a 5 year contract at $6 million a year.  I understand he is worth way more, but doesn't that give him a better chance to be on a team that has a chance to win championships.  Yes $20 million a year is $14 million more per year than $6 million, but $6 million is still a lot of money, its not like you are poor.  You are still getting $6 million a year for playing basketball.  99.9999% of the people in this country would be more than happy with that. You can do just about as much with your life at $6 million as you can with $20 million either way you are still going to be rich.  But nobody does it. Every big star gets a huge contract.  I only heard of one example way back in the day of a big player lowering his contract to sign better talent.  I think it was Magic Johnson in the early 90's or something so they could sign Sedalle Threat or somebody like that I can't remember exactly, but I haven't heard of many examples that is for sure.
Now I have one question to ask, James Posey left to sign for more money in NO. What if he signed for less in Boston, then won another championship.  Would he get more money for winning the title in bonuses and possible endorsements? And would it be possible for him to actually make more money signing for Boston for less and winning another title, then signing for more in New Orleans and not getting to the finals.  Let me know.  Thanks.

I don't think Posey would make a significant amount in endorsements. NO financially was a wise move.  While I think Wade deserves more than 6 million, I do agree that players shouldn't complain about their "team" not being competitive if they're need for every last cent is an obstacle. For example when Orlando signed Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady. The Magic was significantly under the cap and could of paid both players handsomely, but both players squeezed a little more money out by agreeing to sign and trades (Rashard Lewis did the same thing too Summers ago). The Magic were forced to trade away Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins and tie more money up in their cap on just these two players. Then when Orlando sucked, McGrady demanded a trade, because he didn't have enough help.

In a way KG took less in his contract extension than he was eligible for with the C's , but also could have taken a few million less and that would have helped the C's retain other talent. I mean KG has made MILLIONS in his career. What's the difference between getting paid 17 mil per now or 20 mil? I hope Pierce doesn't start grumbling about an extension this year, but if he does I hope he will take less, since he's also already made MILLIONS, so that we can retain Perk and Rondo and remain contenders. Not holding my breath. Athletes tend to want their cake and to eat it too. They want the top dollar, but to also win. even though the less they make, improves the chance of winning. Not signaling out KG or Pierce. most athletes are like this (though Al Jefferson for some reason signed a very team friendly contract two Summers ago with Minny. And last Summer Baron Davis looked like he took less from the Clips, so that Brand could also get paid. Oops, maybe that's why the players don't do this. Owners can't really be trusted).

I always felt like if a star really wanted a player to join his team and money was a factor, the star player could always offer the FA a nice wink wink holiday gift to bring in the player. Like couldn't KG tell Joe Smith this past Spring, "Hey sign with us and I'll hook you up later?"  Sure he could and no one would know. Maybe this has happened before. If the team doesn't even know about it, not sure how they could get in trouble. If Pierce, Ray, and KG could have all kicked in a million a yr each for the rest of their Celtic contracts and that probably would have made the C's offer equal to NO (or close).

Getting back on track. Wade deserves more than 6 million a yr. (Making up hypothetical numbers) But if he won't agree to a 5 yr contract for 90 million that would also allow the Heat to sign Bosh, because he wants the 5 yr 100mil contract, where they have to settle for David Lee, he shouldn't complain afterwards.

The problem with your illegal suggestion is that most guys would rather get paid by a contract that can be legally defended.  And as far as Posey goes, i don't think he really deserved more than 7mil to come off of the bench, he was making more than Perk and Rondo combined are making now.
As far as the Wade thing, he might be the only guy in the league who deserves to make 20mil a year, owing to the fact that he doesn't have support and has to win games himself.  When it comes to the big 3, they should be paid less in order to 'buy' help in other players.  The money should go where it's needed.  Wade is the opposite.  Since the Heat don't really use the money in it's cap on anything else, it should at least go to the guy who deserves it the most.

[housecall]

The solution is easy, just not popular with Celtics fans who want it all: trade Ray Allen for 3 good to very good bench players with decent contracts.

Amen!!!

He's our worst starter, for the dollars he gets paid, and is progressively getting worse.

I love Ray and his beautiful stroke but if there is a trade that helps in the short and long term to improve overall depth and quality Ainge has to move him.

Where is the evidence that Ray is"progressively getting worse"...i thought he had a better offensive season this yr.than in the 2007-08?I don't get these posts,threads that always looking to trade Ray.I don't think Danny Ainge and owners would have gone through all they had to get KG,Ray in the first place if their intentions were to trade either of them after 2 seasons.

[Chief]

The solution is easy, just not popular with Celtics fans who want it all: trade Ray Allen for 3 good to very good bench players with decent contracts.

Amen!!!

He's our worst starter, for the dollars he gets paid, and is progressively getting worse.

I love Ray and his beautiful stroke but if there is a trade that helps in the short and long term to improve overall depth and quality Ainge has to move him.

Where is the evidence that Ray is"progressively getting worse"...i thought he had a better offensive season this yr.than in the 2007-08?I don't get these posts,threads that always looking to trade Ray.I don't think Danny Ainge and owners would have gone through all they had to get KG,Ray in the first place if their intentions were to trade either of them after 2 seasons.

Defensively he looks awful. Especially when KG is not standing behind him.

[housecall]

The solution is easy, just not popular with Celtics fans who want it all: trade Ray Allen for 3 good to very good bench players with decent contracts.

Amen!!!

He's our worst starter, for the dollars he gets paid, and is progressively getting worse.

I love Ray and his beautiful stroke but if there is a trade that helps in the short and long term to improve overall depth and quality Ainge has to move him.

Where is the evidence that Ray is"progressively getting worse"...i thought he had a better offensive season this yr.than in the 2007-08?I don't get these posts,threads that always looking to trade Ray.I don't think Danny Ainge and owners would have gone through all they had to get KG,Ray in the first place if their intentions were to trade either of them after 2 seasons.

Defensively he looks awful. Especially when KG is not standing behind him.

Someone could make that same charge(argument)about Rondo but its not always about individual defense but team defense,and without KG the team defensively looked awful.I fail to see where it calls for Ray to be traded until we see what happens this season.

[mgent]

I dont think our team is screwed up.  At this point in time we have the best starting 5 in the league.  most teams would kill for 3 players with the talent of our starting 5.  Our bench is weak right now but I truly think that Danny will not let last years mistake of having a weak bench happen again.  Its like the 2006 Patriots when Brady was throwing to Caldwell as his best receiver and then the next year the Pats went out and got Moss, Welker, and Stallworth

Apparently people are missing my point because i also think we have the best starting 5.  But no one can stay good forever because older guys will eventually retire and younger guys will either get better and want to change teams, or get worse and so will we.  Also, they won't be able to add much talent due to low draft picks and won't be able to sign decent agents due to the cap.  So i was merely speculating on the fact that unless trades are made, we're gonna go dry a lot sooner than i expected, starting the year after this one.  You say you don't think Danny will make the mistake of a weak bench again, but why did he make that mistake in the first place?  Either something went wrong, or he still has something up his sleeve.  It just sucks cause we're sitting here discussing all the possibilities to no end, but all we've heard is rumors of trades he himself thinks are crazy and his willing to use the MLE (which probably won't help especially if we lose Powe or Baby)

[mgent]

The solution is easy, just not popular with Celtics fans who want it all: trade Ray Allen for 3 good to very good bench players with decent contracts.

Amen!!!

He's our worst starter, for the dollars he gets paid, and is progressively getting worse.

I love Ray and his beautiful stroke but if there is a trade that helps in the short and long term to improve overall depth and quality Ainge has to move him.

Where is the evidence that Ray is"progressively getting worse"...i thought he had a better offensive season this yr.than in the 2007-08?I don't get these posts,threads that always looking to trade Ray.I don't think Danny Ainge and owners would have gone through all they had to get KG,Ray in the first place if their intentions were to trade either of them after 2 seasons.

Defensively he looks awful. Especially when KG is not standing behind him.

Someone could make that same charge(argument)with Rondo but its not always about individual defense but team defense,and without KG the team defensively looked awful.I fail to see where it calls for Ray to be traded until we see what happens this season.

Trading Ray would only make sense if we don't extend his contract, and we have no reason not to.  He's arguably the best 3-point shooter in the league when he's hot, and when he's not he's still one of the top.  He doesn't need to drive with Pierce around, and we need the best shooter we can get since they often double Paul at endgame.  Overall he's an excellent team player.  As far as defense goes he's at least average, which is better than most guards can say.  He's not as aggressive or quick as Rondo, but he can definitely hold his own and as you said he fits in very nicely with the team defense.
The only reason we didn't sign him longer in the first place is because he's old and he's a shooter, and that spells two big risks.  Now that we know he's not a bust, not signing him is crazy.

[timepiece33]

Yes sir, however that 44 million only includes a roster of 3 guys (doesn't include the option for Rondo).  So even if you took a 12mil FA and a probably very low draft pick, you'd have no bench and you'd have lost two of the best guards in the NBA.

Your second idea is probably a better idea.  Extending Ray and Rondo are good ideas, but without a trade of our bench we still won't have decent support because our will cap only allow us to sign a Mid-Level a year, which is a risk at best, and we can't be sure we won't lose more guys to free agency.

Technically, we'd have 8 players on the roster (6 under salary, 1 max player, and the 1st rounder I allocated $1MM for).  It would require us to build the rest of the roster with the MLE, LLE, and minimum salaries as well as 2nd round picks.  

We'd be over the cap by the MLE, LLE, and minimum salary players AND if Rondo is offered a RFA deal ... that amount over his $3.7MM qualifying offer as well.

I'm simply saying that it isn't impossible to see us going down this route.   The flexibility is there. Whether we want to go down that route is another story. 

[timepiece33]

Defensively he looks awful. Especially when KG is not standing behind him.

Yet his PER went up nearly a point from the previous year?