Author Topic: How did our team get so screwed up?  (Read 21091 times)

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Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2009, 11:47:08 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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They can sign more then one player. 


They have the MLE to use in full or to split.

They have the LLE


And they have the vet min.



And soon, they have the expirering package of TA and Scali to get a player around 6 million a year. 


Meanwhile, the Celtics have the best starting 5 in the NBA. 

They used less (never used the LLE) to build the title bench of two years ago.



So, as long as they are smart and target the right players, they will have the bench they need to go with the best starting 5 in the NBA.
Could not have said it better myself. I think people are being a tad pessimistic. I will believe that we can get some decent players for our bench until I am shown otherwise.
As far as being a lottery team in 3 or 4 years, just look at Perkins and Rondo. Each are young and getting better every year. In 3 or 4 years the big 3 will either be winding down or retiring (or play at the same level but it's doubtful).
However, Rondo is an allstar by then and I think Perk might be too. I know I'm being optimistic but if Perk develops a consistent jumper are numbers of 15/12/5 assists and near the top of the league in blocks possible? I think so. Are those near all star numbers for a true center? I think so. If we keep Baby maybe he gets better, he certainly made the jump in the playoffs this year. You never know with Giddens or Walker.
If the Big 3 are retiring and not winding down then we'll have a lot of cap space. Do top free agents want to come here now for the MLE probably not. Do top free agents want to come here for max contracts, I think so. I think the Celtics will start to become like the Red Sox and Patriots of current times and at least compete every year.
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Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2009, 11:48:46 PM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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Is it bad that in about 3 years or so, I'm fully expecting us to have a top 5 lottery pick record?

I've just got that feeling.  We had our time to shine.  That time is coming to a close slowly but surely, and it'll soon be time to start over again.

It probably won't be that good.  It'll probably be more like in 3-4 years we'll be a 30-40 win team and we'll have a lottery pick but not a good enough one to make a big difference.

But Danny seems to be cognizant of the last 20 years or so in which our team has mostly been an after thought in the NBA and I think he'll do everything he can to stop that from happening again.

So are you saying that you agree with my idea for changes to the draft system? ;)  :P  Why should it be better to suck than to be mediocre? Sounds twisted doesn't it?

I agree that the system isn't great but I'm not sure what would make more sense.  Maybe give all teams that don't make the playoffs an equal chance at a top pick.  But teams that make the playoffs should not ever get a lottery pick.

That doesn't work, because then teams would prefer to not make the playoffs over being a #8 seed. I still think the best option is to let every team be in the lottery for the first three picks and picks 4-30 be decided by record. The rule would be that you can have no more than two top 3 picks in ten years.

The problem still remains that it would be colossally unfair for a team that is already a contender to get a top 3 pick.
But my question is why? Why should the teams that sell off all their decent players and hire poor GM's and coaches and have cheap owners always get the best prospects as some reward?  top teams need replenishments too. If we had gotten Lenny Bias we don't suffer in mediocrity and then despair for so many years. And in your worst case scenario, so what if the Lakers get Tyreke Evans once every ten years or the Magic get a James Harden or the Cavs get Blake Griffin? It wouldn't be the end of the world. Just like when the Spurs got to add Duncan to a team with David Robinson. That didn't kill the league. And it wouldn't be like it was equal. If you sucked you could still get the 4th pick every year.

I want to see the Celtics get a KG when he was young. Or a Durant or a Lebron. The only way to do that with the system now in place is to identify when you can no longer win a championship, get rid of all your veterans (trade Pierce, KG etc), so that you can suck royally and hope to win the lottery and keep sucking until you win the lottery. And fans have to root for losses. Wouldn't it be better to at least get to see a mediocre team and see Pierce still in green as you rebuild? the system now in place won't allow that.  It's either you're going for the championship, or get rid of all your good players and suck as bad as you can and go for the lottery. The other teams are perpetual 6th to 10th best teams in their conference and sniff the playoffs and get a late lottery pick every once in a while, but can't really compete until they give up and gut the team.

Then there are the teams like the Clippers who use the lottery as a way to continue to stockpile the best young players with a revolving door policy. I feel it stunts the growth of some of the brightest prospects to consistently be placed on teams that are perpetually rotten.

Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2009, 11:53:34 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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The strategy to rebuild would still be to be as bad as possible under your system, because at the least it would guarantee a top 5 pick.
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Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2009, 11:54:06 PM »

Offline Cman

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I want to see the Celtics get a KG when he was young. Or a Durant or a Lebron. The only way to do that with the system now in place is to identify when you can no longer win a championship, get rid of all your veterans (trade Pierce, KG etc), so that you can suck royally and hope to win the lottery and keep sucking until you win the lottery.

No, that's not the only way.  You can also make smart trades that net you a future draft pick from another team, and hope that pick is the next (fill in the blank)

Minny might have just done that with the trade with Washington that ended up becoming Rubio. 

Likewise, Boston could trade Ray Allen to a team looking to shed salary for a few decent players + future pick.
(eg: Ray and Tony Allen to Charlotte for Bell, Wallace, Nazr and a future 1st round pick).
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Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2009, 11:59:21 PM »

Offline Jon

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The solution is easy, just not popular with Celtics fans who want it all: trade Ray Allen for 3 good to very good bench players with decent contracts.

Except the C's greatest strength is that they have the best starting 5 in basketball.  Make that 1 for 3 trade and that's no longer the case. 

Depth is overrated.  Danny just needs to tell Doc to rest the starters, bench be [dang]ed.  San Antonio did this for years.  They didn't always have the best record, but they got a high seed and competed for the finals.

And that's worst case scenario.  It's plenty possible the C's get a guy like McDyess/Wallace/Smith/Gooden and a Hill/Bowen type, have the starters, have the bench, and challenge the Bulls for the best record of all time. 

People are getting nuts here.  I was ****ed Posey left.  However, he's not the reason the C's didn't win.  KG's injury was.  Even with their crappy bench last year they would've won the title had KG stayed healthy.  Get a decent bench, keep the starters healthy, and #18 will come. 

No need to trade Ray. 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 09:50:06 AM by Jon »

Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2009, 12:05:00 AM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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I want to see the Celtics get a KG when he was young. Or a Durant or a Lebron. The only way to do that with the system now in place is to identify when you can no longer win a championship, get rid of all your veterans (trade Pierce, KG etc), so that you can suck royally and hope to win the lottery and keep sucking until you win the lottery.

No, that's not the only way.  You can also make smart trades that net you a future draft pick from another team, and hope that pick is the next (fill in the blank)

Minny might have just done that with the trade with Washington that ended up becoming Rubio. 

Likewise, Boston could trade Ray Allen to a team looking to shed salary for a few decent players + future pick.
(eg: Ray and Tony Allen to Charlotte for Bell, Wallace, Nazr and a future 1st round pick).

Yes, but hyperbole is a key ingredient in message boards, so I didn't want to give the other side an out. lol.

My draft system isn't perfect, but I believe it does a better job of making the lottery more fair to the brightest young stars and all NBA teams and rewards less the incompetent and cheap franchises. They still get rewarded, but not nearly as much.

In terms of conspiracy theories (not talking about Michael Jackson here), I still think its interesting that all the ridiculously blatant tanking teams (Memphis, Boston, Milwaukee, and Minnesota) got bounced from the top 3 in 2007 and two teams that had been actually playing games to win (Portland and Seattle) got the two blue chip lottery picks.  Remember that late season game between the Bucks and celtics when they both kept one upping each other with starters sitting out and then both played not to win?  Also remember Madsen the year before hucking up threes and KG sitting, so the Wolves would have better lottery odds than Boston? That stuff is bush. Everyone should get an equal chance at the top NBA "recruits."  again if Oden had gone to a playoff team like Golden State that wouldn't have been the end of the world or if Durant goes to the Rockets it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2009, 12:07:28 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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The solution is easy, just not popular with Celtics fans who want it all: trade Ray Allen for 3 good to very good bench players with decent contracts.

Except the C's greatest strength is that they have the best starting 5 in basketball.  Make that 1 for 3 trade and that's no longer the case. 

Depth is overrated.  Danny just need to tell Doc to rest the starters, bench be [dang]ed.  San Antonio did this for years.  They didn't always have the best record, but they got a high seed and competed for the finals.

And that's worst case scenario.  It's plenty possible the C's get a guy like McDyess/Wallace/Smith/Gooden and a Hill/Bowen type, have the starters, have the bench, and challenge the Bulls for the best record of all time. 

People are getting nuts here.  I was ****ed Posey left.  However, he's not the reason the C's didn't win.  KG's injury was.  Even with their crappy bench last year they would've won the title had KG stayed healthy.  Get a decent bench, keep the starters healthy, and #18 will come. 

No need to trade Ray. 
I agree with the screw depth rest the starters depth be [dang]ed. Except that I believe when you force feed a young player time with good players they will advance quickly, see Big Baby. So if we give Giddens/Walker some legit minutes regardless of results maybe they are going to be that much better for the playoffs. We really need to play one of two this year, because free agents are good but the best way is to grow internally.
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Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2009, 12:07:55 AM »

Offline wil

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The solution is easy, just not popular with Celtics fans who want it all: trade Ray Allen for 3 good to very good bench players with decent contracts.

Except the C's greatest strength is that they have the best starting 5 in basketball.  Make that 1 for 3 trade and that's no longer the case. 

Depth is overrated.  Danny just need to tell Doc to rest the starters, bench be [dang]ed.  San Antonio did this for years.  They didn't always have the best record, but they got a high seed and competed for the finals.

And that's worst case scenario.  It's plenty possible the C's get a guy like McDyess/Wallace/Smith/Gooden and a Hill/Bowen type, have the starters, have the bench, and challenge the Bulls for the best record of all time. 

People are getting nuts here.  I was ****ed Posey left.  However, he's not the reason the C's didn't win.  KG's injury was.  Even with their crappy bench last year they would've won the title had KG stayed healthy.  Get a decent bench, keep the starters healthy, and #18 will come. 

No need to trade Ray. 

TP for you

Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2009, 12:10:47 AM »

Offline Rondo_is_better

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The solution is easy, just not popular with Celtics fans who want it all: trade Ray Allen for 3 good to very good bench players with decent contracts.

Except the C's greatest strength is that they have the best starting 5 in basketball.  Make that 1 for 3 trade and that's no longer the case. 

Depth is overrated.  Danny just need to tell Doc to rest the starters, bench be [dang]ed.  San Antonio did this for years.  They didn't always have the best record, but they got a high seed and competed for the finals.

And that's worst case scenario.  It's plenty possible the C's get a guy like McDyess/Wallace/Smith/Gooden and a Hill/Bowen type, have the starters, have the bench, and challenge the Bulls for the best record of all time. 

People are getting nuts here.  I was ****ed Posey left.  However, he's not the reason the C's didn't win.  KG's injury was.  Even with their crappy bench last year they would've won the title had KG stayed healthy.  Get a decent bench, keep the starters healthy, and #18 will come. 

No need to trade Ray. 

Thank you, Jon. TP.
Grab a few boards, keep the TO's under 14, close out on shooters and we'll win.

Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2009, 02:00:49 AM »

Offline timepiece33

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Personally, I believe trading Ray Allen for 3 second level talents is about as dumb a move as Danny can do right now.  If he leverages that contract for a great young player, that's a different story.

People act as if this is the same NBA as when Larry and Kevin existed in.  Free Agency is much more prevalent and makes that era almost irrelevant in this discussion

We have our window now.  We will have flexibility as these guys come off their contracts.  It's just a matter of "when" we want to exercise that option.  The issue that we have is that we are in reasonable cap position next year with Allen's contract coming off the books ... but moves we make now might change that point.   

I'd rather see us package Scal, Allen, and Giddens for a long term contract that can help us long term.   Josh Childress OR Corey Maggette make the most sense.

How exactly are we screwed up again?  Some of you guys overreact to everything. 

Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2009, 02:21:47 AM »

Offline star18

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I'll agree with you on one thing.  I never understood why the great players always have to have huge contracts.  If you demand or sign for a huge contract the team doesn't have that much in salary cap left to sign other great players.  Lets just suppose Dwayne Wade signs a 5 year contract at $6 million a year.  I understand he is worth way more, but doesn't that give him a better chance to be on a team that has a chance to win championships.  Yes $20 million a year is $14 million more per year than $6 million, but $6 million is still a lot of money, its not like you are poor.  You are still getting $6 million a year for playing basketball.  99.9999% of the people in this country would be more than happy with that. You can do just about as much with your life at $6 million as you can with $20 million either way you are still going to be rich.  But nobody does it. Every big star gets a huge contract.  I only heard of one example way back in the day of a big player lowering his contract to sign better talent.  I think it was Magic Johnson in the early 90's or something so they could sign Sedalle Threat or somebody like that I can't remember exactly, but I haven't heard of many examples that is for sure.
Now I have one question to ask, James Posey left to sign for more money in NO. What if he signed for less in Boston, then won another championship.  Would he get more money for winning the title in bonuses and possible endorsements? And would it be possible for him to actually make more money signing for Boston for less and winning another title, then signing for more in New Orleans and not getting to the finals.  Let me know.  Thanks.

Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2009, 02:23:00 AM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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I think once Ainge made the trades to go for it now, you can't change course after two years. They should do all they can to compete for the title the next two years and then can make a decision if they need to take a step back. Those CSN commercials with Tommy and Mike and Ray Allen saying it only counts in Boston if you win multiple championships, well go for another. And Danny don't try to outsmart people this Summer. Listen to us celticbloggers ;) Get known commodities to shore up the bench and tell Doc to seriously monitor the Big Three's minutes in the regular season.

And Wyc needs to loosen the purse strings. Your starting line-up is a sweet Lexus. Don't compliment the Lexus with some pitiful hub caps for a bench. If you want to only get modest rims, that's fine. But not another year of our starters being supported by hub caps.  8)

Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2009, 02:23:13 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Before this year I never really paid attention to contracts, just the players.  But now that our window is closing with the big 3, I'm all nervous because we desperately need some support if we want a good chance to get back on top.  So i take a look at our contracts and it turns out we are already like 15mil over the cap, so we can only sign 1 player.  In conclusion, this sucks.  Half of our bench doesn't even play, so i feel like we're severely disabled.  Then i take a look at the top of the list and i realized the big 3 are all being paid the league maximum.  Actually, Garnett is about 5mil over somehow.  So i add them together and it turns out just the 3 of them are over the cap for the whole team.  Why don't these guys take a freakin pay cut and help out their team?  Getting 20mil for being the league MVP is one thing, but Ray Allen barely made the all-star team.
Last year we lost Posey, Cassell, and Brown, and we gained nobody.
Now we're possibly losing Powe and Davis, and it's up to House if he wants to stay.  If we can't sign anybody, then when everyone's contracts run out we're gonna be in big trouble.  Out of the 14 guys on our roster 3 of them aren't even guaranteed, 3 of them have barely played in this league, and 1 of them is the 3rd to last draft pick.  So other than our 5 starters, that leaves Tony Allen and Scalabrine.  Danny better have something up his sleeve for 2010.  I'm looking at the page right now and we've only got about 4-5 guys guaranteed for the year after next.  It's gonna suck if everyone wants out, because it seems not many people want in.
Learn the NBA salary rules. There are no pay cuts in the NBA, unless you are talking about buyouts. A fan slightly literate about contracts knows that KG's contract was signed before max contracts, and is a major reason why shut limits were created.

The big 3 had their contracts before the big 3 were assembled. KG's 3 year extension that is now beginning decreases his pay.

Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2009, 02:32:02 AM »

Offline star18

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So my question is this.  A player signs at $8 million a year and doesn't get to the finals, or signs for $5 million a year and wins a title.  Aren't they going to make about the same amount of money, considering the possible bonuses and endorsements for winning a title?  So they may end up making about $8 million a year anyway?

Or what if a player like Wade signs for $5 million a year, he gets a few other great player around him, and now has a chance to build a dynasty.  He wins like 3 or 4 titles in a row and goes down in history as one of the great basketball dynasties of the era.  In the long run, even after Wade's career is over, people will still talk about how he was on a dynasty and won 3 or 4 in a row.  Will he end up making close to as much money as if he signed a big contract for a .500 team and never made it to the finals again for the rest of his career?

Re: How did our team get so screwed up?
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2009, 02:42:33 AM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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I'll agree with you on one thing.  I never understood why the great players always have to have huge contracts.  If you demand or sign for a huge contract the team doesn't have that much in salary cap left to sign other great players.  Lets just suppose Dwayne Wade signs a 5 year contract at $6 million a year.  I understand he is worth way more, but doesn't that give him a better chance to be on a team that has a chance to win championships.  Yes $20 million a year is $14 million more per year than $6 million, but $6 million is still a lot of money, its not like you are poor.  You are still getting $6 million a year for playing basketball.  99.9999% of the people in this country would be more than happy with that. You can do just about as much with your life at $6 million as you can with $20 million either way you are still going to be rich.  But nobody does it. Every big star gets a huge contract.  I only heard of one example way back in the day of a big player lowering his contract to sign better talent.  I think it was Magic Johnson in the early 90's or something so they could sign Sedalle Threat or somebody like that I can't remember exactly, but I haven't heard of many examples that is for sure.
Now I have one question to ask, James Posey left to sign for more money in NO. What if he signed for less in Boston, then won another championship.  Would he get more money for winning the title in bonuses and possible endorsements? And would it be possible for him to actually make more money signing for Boston for less and winning another title, then signing for more in New Orleans and not getting to the finals.  Let me know.  Thanks.

I'll agree with you on one thing.  I never understood why the great players always have to have huge contracts.  If you demand or sign for a huge contract the team doesn't have that much in salary cap left to sign other great players.  Lets just suppose Dwayne Wade signs a 5 year contract at $6 million a year.  I understand he is worth way more, but doesn't that give him a better chance to be on a team that has a chance to win championships.  Yes $20 million a year is $14 million more per year than $6 million, but $6 million is still a lot of money, its not like you are poor.  You are still getting $6 million a year for playing basketball.  99.9999% of the people in this country would be more than happy with that. You can do just about as much with your life at $6 million as you can with $20 million either way you are still going to be rich.  But nobody does it. Every big star gets a huge contract.  I only heard of one example way back in the day of a big player lowering his contract to sign better talent.  I think it was Magic Johnson in the early 90's or something so they could sign Sedalle Threat or somebody like that I can't remember exactly, but I haven't heard of many examples that is for sure.
Now I have one question to ask, James Posey left to sign for more money in NO. What if he signed for less in Boston, then won another championship.  Would he get more money for winning the title in bonuses and possible endorsements? And would it be possible for him to actually make more money signing for Boston for less and winning another title, then signing for more in New Orleans and not getting to the finals.  Let me know.  Thanks.

I don't think Posey would make a significant amount in endorsements. NO financially was a wise move.  While I think Wade deserves more than 6 million, I do agree that players shouldn't complain about their "team" not being competitive if they're need for every last cent is an obstacle. For example when Orlando signed Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady. The Magic was significantly under the cap and could of paid both players handsomely, but both players squeezed a little more money out by agreeing to sign and trades (Rashard Lewis did the same thing too Summers ago). The Magic were forced to trade away Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins and tie more money up in their cap on just these two players. Then when Orlando sucked, McGrady demanded a trade, because he didn't have enough help.

In a way KG took less in his contract extension than he was eligible for with the C's , but also could have taken a few million less and that would have helped the C's retain other talent. I mean KG has made MILLIONS in his career. What's the difference between getting paid 17 mil per now or 20 mil? I hope Pierce doesn't start grumbling about an extension this year, but if he does I hope he will take less, since he's also already made MILLIONS, so that we can retain Perk and Rondo and remain contenders. Not holding my breath. Athletes tend to want their cake and to eat it too. They want the top dollar, but to also win. even though the less they make, improves the chance of winning. Not signaling out KG or Pierce. most athletes are like this (though Al Jefferson for some reason signed a very team friendly contract two Summers ago with Minny. And last Summer Baron Davis looked like he took less from the Clips, so that Brand could also get paid. Oops, maybe that's why the players don't do this. Owners can't really be trusted).

I always felt like if a star really wanted a player to join his team and money was a factor, the star player could always offer the FA a nice wink wink holiday gift to bring in the player. Like couldn't KG tell Joe Smith this past Spring, "Hey sign with us and I'll hook you up later?"  Sure he could and no one would know. Maybe this has happened before. If the team doesn't even know about it, not sure how they could get in trouble. If Pierce, Ray, and KG could have all kicked in a million a yr each for the rest of their Celtic contracts and that probably would have made the C's offer equal to NO (or close).

Getting back on track. Wade deserves more than 6 million a yr. (Making up hypothetical numbers) But if he won't agree to a 5 yr contract for 90 million that would also allow the Heat to sign Bosh, because he wants the 5 yr 100mil contract, where they have to settle for David Lee, he shouldn't complain afterwards.