Author Topic: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?  (Read 20138 times)

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Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2009, 01:25:14 AM »

Offline vagrantwade

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The difference between Marbury and Iverson is, Marbury told D'Antoni he would be willing to come off the bench if that is what he wanted. So he had already agreed to it, even though he as the best player on the team.

Iverson agreed to it, then said he hated it and stopped playing.

Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2009, 07:25:42 AM »

Offline KG_ended_Bias

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So many people are so darn fooled by Chauncey Billups making Denver a better team. They went further in the playoffs because Manu Ginobili seriously hurt the Spurs chances, and Amare Stoudemire damaged the Suns. Those are legit 2 & 3 seeds taken out of the equation. Denver gets eliminated in the 2nd round if any of those two teams are healthy. Dont get it confused! I started this thread & been a die-hard Celtic since 81' & root for no one else. Havent miss a Celtic game since 85' Im 34yrs. old & have seen Iverson play his whole career, and people getting on here bashing him are just not NBA fans. They are Celtic only fans & dont sem to notice other teams grit & grinders unless they are getting Tommy Points from Heinsohn it seems. Iverson single handily beat us with BS on his teams for years. He took a team with starters I would never wanna see in a uniform to the brink of a championship & now all the sudden he is a failure. We all want Rasheed Wallace & he played underacheiving ball for the same club last year & yet he gets a pass. Detroit had Kwame freakin Brown in the starting lineup & a natural 2 gaurd in Stuckey playing the point yet everyone blames Iverson. He should not have had to take a back seat to Stuckey & come off the bench with any lineup with Kwame Brown starting are you guys serious! Remember Detroit was starting to stink before Billups got traded away because they invested in Kwame Brown & a under sized Maxiell, forcing Wallace to play center which he doens't do well because he loves the outside. With no inside presence & points in the paint name me 1 team who had success that way! A focused Iverson would be a great fit here because there is no doubting he plays hard 99% of every game I ever watched. Including last year! He gives everything he has & only haters dont realize it.

Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2009, 07:54:45 AM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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Im 34yrs. old & have seen Iverson play his whole career, and people getting on here bashing him are just not NBA fans. They are Celtic only fans & dont sem to notice other teams grit & grinders unless they are getting Tommy Points from Heinsohn it seems.

Ah, returning to the old standby defense equating to 'If you don't see it my way, you're just a homer and not really a fan of the league." 

Beyond the fact that this is a patently false claim - and mildly insulting to a significant portion of this board - it also leads me to wonder why you started the thread in the first place.  Why bother "discussing" something on a discussion forum when you're going to deem anyone who doesn't share your perspective effectively unqualified?

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Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2009, 08:33:43 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I know he rubbed a lot of basketball purists the wrong way, with his practice episode but he has won everywhere he's went except for the last year with the sixers


and the nuggetts, who are so much better with chauncy its funny.

oh, and Detroit where he quit on the team with a fake injury and was told to make himself scarce from the team rather than come off the bench.

sounds like a guy who would be happy with a backup role and team play.

You are right, he WAS a good player, but his attitude has never updated itself to the fact that he is not anywhere close to being the force he was in 99-2003 or so. He is a secondary or trietary option now, but his ego won't let him accept that.
Denver won four more games this year than last year and was 2 games better against the Lakers in the playoffs this year then last year.  Denver's bigs were finally healthy the whole season.  Smith and Melo continued their upward progression.  The reality is, Denver really wasn't much different with Billups as they were with AI, they just got lucky the west had only 1 elite team and that they faced seriously flawed teams in the first two rounds of the playoffs with home court.

Did you watch many Denver games last year and this year? not asking to be a jerk, but i watched them both last year and this year, and it wasn't just about being healthy, though that surely helped.

It was about attitude. last year, denver gave absolutely no effort on defense, and couldn't keep opposing guards out of the paint, which ruined them.

That stems from AI's inability or lack of desire to play defense. Chauncey fixed that.

Last year also consisted mostly of two offenseive plays. watch Ai dribble alot before a shot, or watch melo dribble alot before a shot. Iverson is not a distributor, nor has he ever been. He will get assists off slashing, but he routinely dribbles the air out of the basketball before finally giving the ball up with 5-8 second left on the clock.

Chauncy, on the other hand, ran there offense instead of a one on one game that sometimes involved other players.

Iverson's game is predicated on him being faster and quicker than anyone on the court, and exploiting man to man offenses. He needs to be the alpha star on a team, and he was very good at it when he had the physical tools.

but He doesn't anymore, but the head seems not to have caught up with the body's decline. so, just as he was in both places, he is a very inefficient scorer who gives you nothing on defense and very little in the way of ball movement on offense.

He's done. If i thought he had any chance of adapting his ego to being a backup scoring option or a 6th man, i would say he has some value left, but he clearly sees himself as still being an elite player, and acts as such. Thats why the pistons couldn't be happier to send him home for the year, and karl couldn't wait to be rid of him.
That is all well and good, but Denver won just 4 more games this year and lost to the exact same team in the playoffs, though did fair a bit better.

If Denver was really that much better they would have won more han 4 games more.
They were the number two seed, advanced to the WCF, won 10 playoff games, and posted a much stronger point differential. That's not a small difference.

Also using Birdman instead of Camby in the rotation is a definite downgrade. You could just look at Billups/AI's stats too. AI's are much much worse.
Nene, Martin, and the Birdman was a far better rotation this season then they had last year due to injuries and overall fit.  Melo and Smith were significantly better players coming into the year, especially Melo as a result of the Olympics.  54 wins two years ago makes them the 7th seed (just one spot better than they were with 50 wins, though that might have meant a better showing not playing the Lakers in the first round).  The West was just flat out better two years ago then it was last year.  The Nuggets took advantage of the weaker conference and the improved play of their best player.  AI was a bit of a redundancy with the games of Melo and Smith, so Billups was likely a better fit, but the overhype of what billups did for the nuggets is ridiculous.
Take a look at basketball-reference.com for the two teams.

Denver 2007-2008
Denver 2008-2009

They have have an differential that is better, their opponents shot worse against them and they also slowed down in pace. Their eFG% went up because their 3PT% went up.

You point out that they'd be the 7th seed last year with 54 wins. But with 58 wins they'd be the 1st seed last year. The margin for playoff seeding was in both years very tight. Four games is that important. Improving a team by four wins is very significant.

He was a better fit that is part of it. But he is also a better player at this point than Iverson.

Billups: 17.9 Pts 42 FG% 41 3PT FG% 6.4 Ast 2.2 TOs 3.0 Reb
Iverson: 17.4 Pts 41 FG% 25 3PT FG% 4.9 Ast 2.5 TOs 3.1 Reb

Meanwhile Billups is a good defensive player, Iverson is a terrible defender.

Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2009, 09:36:06 AM »

Online Moranis

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I know he rubbed a lot of basketball purists the wrong way, with his practice episode but he has won everywhere he's went except for the last year with the sixers


and the nuggetts, who are so much better with chauncy its funny.

oh, and Detroit where he quit on the team with a fake injury and was told to make himself scarce from the team rather than come off the bench.

sounds like a guy who would be happy with a backup role and team play.

You are right, he WAS a good player, but his attitude has never updated itself to the fact that he is not anywhere close to being the force he was in 99-2003 or so. He is a secondary or trietary option now, but his ego won't let him accept that.
Denver won four more games this year than last year and was 2 games better against the Lakers in the playoffs this year then last year.  Denver's bigs were finally healthy the whole season.  Smith and Melo continued their upward progression.  The reality is, Denver really wasn't much different with Billups as they were with AI, they just got lucky the west had only 1 elite team and that they faced seriously flawed teams in the first two rounds of the playoffs with home court.

Did you watch many Denver games last year and this year? not asking to be a jerk, but i watched them both last year and this year, and it wasn't just about being healthy, though that surely helped.

It was about attitude. last year, denver gave absolutely no effort on defense, and couldn't keep opposing guards out of the paint, which ruined them.

That stems from AI's inability or lack of desire to play defense. Chauncey fixed that.

Last year also consisted mostly of two offenseive plays. watch Ai dribble alot before a shot, or watch melo dribble alot before a shot. Iverson is not a distributor, nor has he ever been. He will get assists off slashing, but he routinely dribbles the air out of the basketball before finally giving the ball up with 5-8 second left on the clock.

Chauncy, on the other hand, ran there offense instead of a one on one game that sometimes involved other players.

Iverson's game is predicated on him being faster and quicker than anyone on the court, and exploiting man to man offenses. He needs to be the alpha star on a team, and he was very good at it when he had the physical tools.

but He doesn't anymore, but the head seems not to have caught up with the body's decline. so, just as he was in both places, he is a very inefficient scorer who gives you nothing on defense and very little in the way of ball movement on offense.

He's done. If i thought he had any chance of adapting his ego to being a backup scoring option or a 6th man, i would say he has some value left, but he clearly sees himself as still being an elite player, and acts as such. Thats why the pistons couldn't be happier to send him home for the year, and karl couldn't wait to be rid of him.
That is all well and good, but Denver won just 4 more games this year and lost to the exact same team in the playoffs, though did fair a bit better.

If Denver was really that much better they would have won more han 4 games more.
They were the number two seed, advanced to the WCF, won 10 playoff games, and posted a much stronger point differential. That's not a small difference.

Also using Birdman instead of Camby in the rotation is a definite downgrade. You could just look at Billups/AI's stats too. AI's are much much worse.
Nene, Martin, and the Birdman was a far better rotation this season then they had last year due to injuries and overall fit.  Melo and Smith were significantly better players coming into the year, especially Melo as a result of the Olympics.  54 wins two years ago makes them the 7th seed (just one spot better than they were with 50 wins, though that might have meant a better showing not playing the Lakers in the first round).  The West was just flat out better two years ago then it was last year.  The Nuggets took advantage of the weaker conference and the improved play of their best player.  AI was a bit of a redundancy with the games of Melo and Smith, so Billups was likely a better fit, but the overhype of what billups did for the nuggets is ridiculous.
Take a look at basketball-reference.com for the two teams.

Denver 2007-2008
Denver 2008-2009

They have have an differential that is better, their opponents shot worse against them and they also slowed down in pace. Their eFG% went up because their 3PT% went up.

You point out that they'd be the 7th seed last year with 54 wins. But with 58 wins they'd be the 1st seed last year. The margin for playoff seeding was in both years very tight. Four games is that important. Improving a team by four wins is very significant.

He was a better fit that is part of it. But he is also a better player at this point than Iverson.

Billups: 17.9 Pts 42 FG% 41 3PT FG% 6.4 Ast 2.2 TOs 3.0 Reb
Iverson: 17.4 Pts 41 FG% 25 3PT FG% 4.9 Ast 2.5 TOs 3.1 Reb

Meanwhile Billups is a good defensive player, Iverson is a terrible defender.
Um, their point differential was actually worse this year at 3.4 verse 3.7 last year.  Yes they slowed the game down, but they didn't actually improve their point margin, it got worse.  Their turnover margin was worse this year.  They did have a better assist ratio and more importantly a significantly better rebounding margin.  The bench this year was significantly better (Chris Anderson and Dahntey Jones were 8th and 9th in minutes this year verse Eduardo Najera and Yakhouba Diawara last year).  Nene was healthy and easily replaced Camby in the starting lineup and he was not only better, he was a better fit.  Martin was much more balanced.  Jr. Smith was a significantly better player.  Kleiza was improved and more balanced.  Anthony was a much better all around player. 

Detroit finally hit the bottom.  McDyess and Sheed showed their age.  Maxiell and Johnson are undersized for where they were playing.  Stucky and Kwame Brown should never have been starting.  Rip, AI, Dyess, and Sheed all missed a bunch of games.  Detroit is quite simply just at the end of their road, and it really had nothing to do with swapping AI for Billups.
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Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2009, 10:26:55 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Oops that will teach me to type a post that quickly. I thought it was 3.7 to 3.4 the other way around.

Either way I still don't buy that AI can be a quality starter. His defense is singularly atrocious, and his offensive game involves dribbling the ball around and jacking up bad shots or putting his team mates in poor positions to shoot.

His usage is signifigantly greater than Billups, which is a reflection in thier difference of style. Plus AI refused to be a team player on Detroit. The whole team except for McDyess and some of the young players quit, but AI still ditched the team rather than come off the bench.

Billups is just a better player at this point in their careers. Both are on the downward slope, but AI is just a fading "superstar" who can't adjust his game. Most don't sadly.

Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2009, 10:32:21 AM »

Offline wiley

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Oops that will teach me to type a post that quickly. I thought it was 3.7 to 3.4 the other way around.

Either way I still don't buy that AI can be a quality starter. His defense is singularly atrocious, and his offensive game involves dribbling the ball around and jacking up bad shots or putting his team mates in poor positions to shoot.

His usage is signifigantly greater than Billups, which is a reflection in thier difference of style. Plus AI refused to be a team player on Detroit. The whole team except for McDyess and some of the young players quit, but AI still ditched the team rather than come off the bench.

Billups is just a better player at this point in their careers. Both are on the downward slope, but AI is just a fading "superstar" who can't adjust his game. Most don't sadly.

Agree completely on this one!  Rondo to A.I. would be a terrible shock to the system (the Celts and mine)

Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2009, 10:44:10 AM »

Offline cornbreadsmart

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i'm still shocked that a.i. stayed home for the playoffs. i can't believe he did'nt at least fake being a team guy and just suck it up ,wave the towel, whatever, and just wait for next year. it's just incredible he was THAT SELFISH after the rep he already has. he really does'nt DESERVE to play for  any nba team.

Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2009, 10:46:36 AM »

Offline cornbreadsmart

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it does'nt matter how HARD iverson plays. he is a HORRIBLE defensive player. he could try all he wants, he's just awful on d.

Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2009, 12:31:47 PM »

Offline QuinielaBox

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I'd almost rather have Marbury over Iverson at this point.
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Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2009, 12:32:17 PM »

Offline ToppersBsktball10

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I figure if we did trade Rondo for a good young big or PG for the future, Wouldnt Allen Iverson be a good fit for our team? He would be a great fit offensively I believe because he has the same if not more ability to break down defenders & live in the paint like Rondo if not better. He couldn't be left open either because he wont hesistate to take the open jumper like Rondo does 70% of the time. He could be reliable again playing with proven All-Stars who wont demand that he score the ball like Detroit did last year. I think Detroit's stagnate offense was too much for Iverson to overcome & reminded him of his Philly days where he was relied on too heavily to work his old magic most times with the clock running down. In Boston he could facilitate & would be enticed to come becuase he would be single covered 90% of the time with Paul & Ray on the wings & could have his best assist year ever working with 3 All Stars not including himself. What is always lost with A.I. is that he is a very good passer, he just never really had the luxury of playing with great scorers besides Carmelo & Rip. I could easily see Iverson averaging 19pts. 4 rebs. 9ast. 3stls. a game for us next year without much effort & could do better based on his motivation to win a title. It is now or never for A.I. to win a championship & with Detroit sending home last season before the playoffs started, im sure it made him look long & hard in the mirror on how he may have tarnished his image & would be out to prove ALL the doubters wrong and show that he can lead a team with his playmaking abilities rather than scoring 30 a game. We all know he would give us his all & Danny has long admired A.I. for years. And now that he can be had at the right price Im sure he would love to be a Celtic with K.G. Plus K.G. & A.I. lobbied to play with each other about 3 years ago before Iverson's trade to Denver. Iverson's defense is not far off Rondo's as they are both gamblers looking for steals with neither being great on ball guys. They can both pressure defenders good up the floor, but in the half court set they are both just average. What we lose in rebounding with Rondo I feel being the best rebounding PG in the league, we would gain in toughness & guile in pressure packed moments because Allen has to be accounted for as opposed to being the weak link in the chain like Rondo has been in the playoffs when he made to be the guy who had to score. Everyone automatically assumes the FA's Danny is thinking about is Sheed, McDyess, Hill. But I am more inclined to think it is Allen who they are really targeting. Allen was also on record saying he wants to play til he is 39 & at PG, not as a go to scorer. Analyze this with sense of the players he is going to be playing with, and not with your hearts & affinity for Rondo & then tell me what you think!
AI was in no way a victim of the Detroit system. He was the problem.

And how is Rondo the weak link on a team that is all about defense?

AI and PP on the same team is a horrific idea.
Michael Curry being the worst coach in the NBA was the problem.

Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2009, 12:48:48 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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There comes a point when you can't keep blaming coaches for a team's struggles. Philly got better once Iverson left, Denver got better once Iverson left, and I'm willing to bet that Detroit will be better this coming year now that Iverson is gone.

He is no longer an effective starter for an NBA level team. His game relies too much on quickness and freelancing to be effective now that he is no longer quicker than everyone else on the court.

Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2009, 12:56:47 PM »

Online Moranis

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Oops that will teach me to type a post that quickly. I thought it was 3.7 to 3.4 the other way around.

Either way I still don't buy that AI can be a quality starter. His defense is singularly atrocious, and his offensive game involves dribbling the ball around and jacking up bad shots or putting his team mates in poor positions to shoot.

His usage is signifigantly greater than Billups, which is a reflection in thier difference of style. Plus AI refused to be a team player on Detroit. The whole team except for McDyess and some of the young players quit, but AI still ditched the team rather than come off the bench.

Billups is just a better player at this point in their careers. Both are on the downward slope, but AI is just a fading "superstar" who can't adjust his game. Most don't sadly.
Hey I don't want AI on the team at this point in his career, I'm just tired of people saying look at Denver and look at Detroit after the trade without actually putting any thought in it.  Detroit was done this year whether they had Billups or AI it didn't matter.  They got old, they had injuries, and they had mediocre players playing big roles.  Denver was a slightly better team (which is more a result of the improved interior play and Melo, Kleiza, and Smith natural progressions) than anything else.  Denver just appeared much better than last year because this was by far the weakest the western conference has been in a long time. 
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Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2009, 12:56:53 PM »

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I've always hated AI. And now I just pity him. 13 years in the NBA & still is as selfish as ever. Even Kobe got the memo 2 years ago, Basketball is a team sport.

I think KG would shoot himself if he ever played with this cancer.

Re: If Rondo was traded, couldn't Allen Iverson be a good PG for us?
« Reply #74 on: June 13, 2009, 01:01:43 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Oops that will teach me to type a post that quickly. I thought it was 3.7 to 3.4 the other way around.

Either way I still don't buy that AI can be a quality starter. His defense is singularly atrocious, and his offensive game involves dribbling the ball around and jacking up bad shots or putting his team mates in poor positions to shoot.

His usage is signifigantly greater than Billups, which is a reflection in thier difference of style. Plus AI refused to be a team player on Detroit. The whole team except for McDyess and some of the young players quit, but AI still ditched the team rather than come off the bench.

Billups is just a better player at this point in their careers. Both are on the downward slope, but AI is just a fading "superstar" who can't adjust his game. Most don't sadly.
Hey I don't want AI on the team at this point in his career, I'm just tired of people saying look at Denver and look at Detroit after the trade without actually putting any thought in it.  Detroit was done this year whether they had Billups or AI it didn't matter.  They got old, they had injuries, and they had mediocre players playing big roles.  Denver was a slightly better team (which is more a result of the improved interior play and Melo, Kleiza, and Smith natural progressions) than anything else.  Denver just appeared much better than last year because this was by far the weakest the western conference has been in a long time. 
I disagree with you about Billups not making a difference. A true point guard who isn't a defensive joke makes a big difference to how a whole team plays. Other players played better, Chauncey deserves credit for that.

The Denver case is mor complicated but there is no defense for AI when Philly improved right away after trading him for Andre Miller. A point for a point and suddenly the team didn't suck so as badly.