Author Topic: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo  (Read 12754 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2009, 02:50:58 PM »

Offline johnnyrondo

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4038
  • Tommy Points: 1245
Ok I'm about to make a great point, so everyone listen up :P

Obviously I'm a Rondo fan by my username, but in defense of this trade it wouldn't be just Rondo for Rubio. Let's say Rondo wants 11 million per yr. Well Rubio under his rookie contract would be paid around 5 mil per yr for the first 3 yrs, so that's 6 million more the C's have to sign someone. 6 million might mean the difference in keeping Ray past this year or keeping Paul or Perk. Or we could use that 6 million on another very good player, or accept a long term contract.

So it would really be Rondo for Rubio and (insert 6 mil/yr player)

Also, Rubio would open the European market to the Celtics and I'm sure that would bring in even more money. So declining to extend Rondo and trading for Rubio could really set us up well to continue to contend in the future. We'd already have our pg and center (2 hardest positions to fill) and have great veterans like Pierce and KG.

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2009, 02:51:43 PM »

Offline Casperian

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3501
  • Tommy Points: 545
A few random thoughts:

1. The possibilities are nearly endless.
There are many reasonable trades possible between Memphis and Boston, since they´re going in two completely different directions, and if you add a third team, every single one of these scenarios gets countless little brothers and sisters. So, we really don´t know what exactly is going on and who Ainge really targets.

2. We have no clue about Rondo´s personal situation, either. Is he or is he not accepted within the team? What do the C´s know about Rondo´s demands for a contract extension? Are they not satisfied with his improvement, do they not like his ceiling? Things that only people close to the organization can answer, but which are essential to the question about the merits of this trade.

3. I think it´s laughable to hear about Rubio´s huge bust-potential from guys who admit that they´ve only seen roughly one game with him. Statements like "You don´t trade a proven PG for a Rookie" are also absurd, imo. What makes these people think that their ability to judge a player is better than the Celtics scouting staff? It´s the Celtics FO that brought Rondo to the Celtics in the first place, and we won banner 17 with an unproven second-year player. I know I trust these guys if they´re really willing to do a trade of this calibre.
In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2009, 02:51:57 PM »

Offline Jeff

  • CelticsBlog CEO
  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6672
  • Tommy Points: 301
  • ranter
why do I have to give him Chris Paul money?  I just said I'd trade him for nobody but CP3

and yeah, maybe I would give him 6 years, 72 million if that's what it took - if I'm willing to give a guy 10M, I'm not going to push away from the table just because he wants a a million or two more per year than I think he's worth
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark

"Know what I pray for? The strength to change what I can, the inability to accept what I can't, and the incapacity to tell the difference." - Calvin (Bill Watterson)

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2009, 02:57:54 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1104
  • Tommy Points: 154
SoulHonky, I don't think anybody's suggesting Paul for Rondo is fair value. First, factor in that we'd be including Ray and taking on a bad longterm contract to do this. So people are suggesting Paul is worth Rondo plus Ray Allen, an All Star shooting guard, and major cash considerations (worth probably about $15 million or so at least). With the cash considerations, right off the bat, we're saying Rondo is worth at least $3 mil a year less than Paul. Factoring in Ray, you're talking an extra couple mil a year less. So if the trade were to happen that way, it would theorize Rondo being worth at least $5 million a year less than Paul. That's about what Jeff is proposing as a reasonable amount.

And even then, it would only be financially motivated for New Orleans, which is under major cash constraints, and we would get the superior talent. So the logic that "we want to get Paul if we trade Rondo, therefore Rondo deserves a contract equal to that of Paul" doesn't hold out because your initial assumption is inccorect and you're ignoring the other factors in the trade.

From the Hornets' perspective, Rondo MIGHT be considered a worthy replacement for Paul in New Orleans (I don't think New Orleans would even consider this trade) only because they can get a good player at the same position for much less money (i.e., $9-11 mil a year.)
Go Celtics.

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2009, 02:59:34 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
I don't know, I might have to sharpen the pitchfork if we trade Rondo for anyone not named Chris Paul

But would you give him Chris Paul's contract? That's the key issue. People seem to be unwilling to give him up for anything but an elite player but then when it comes to salary, he's in Jose Calderon/Kirk Hinrich territory. He'd have to agree to one hell of a hometown discount for that to happen IMO.

The whole salary thing is a matter of perspective. I find it interesting that no one was complaining about Rondo's salary when we were paying him less than Tony Allen. But then we balk at the possibility that Rondo could want half the amount that Paul Pierce makes, even though Rondo is arguably as valuable (or maybe more valuable) to the team...

The preservative boils down to two things. consistency and the ability to shoot a jump shot when open.

Rajon has shown neither of those, paul has. 8 per is fine, more is not.

  There are plenty of players who can hit the open jump shot that don't have anywhere near the positive effect on a game as Rondo. In 07-08 many people here felt that the big three were so good they'd do just as well with any pg until Rondo was slowed by injuries and the wheels started to fall off the bus. If Rondo had missed more than the couple of games he did this year he'd be seen as a lot less expendable here.

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2009, 03:01:28 PM »

Offline MrTripleDouble10

  • Derrick White
  • Posts: 289
  • Tommy Points: 67
The problem with all of these trade rumors is that they involve all the major players on a team that can still content for a title for at least 2 years (when healthy, of course).

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2009, 03:05:01 PM »

Offline crownsy

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8469
  • Tommy Points: 157
I don't know, I might have to sharpen the pitchfork if we trade Rondo for anyone not named Chris Paul

But would you give him Chris Paul's contract? That's the key issue. People seem to be unwilling to give him up for anything but an elite player but then when it comes to salary, he's in Jose Calderon/Kirk Hinrich territory. He'd have to agree to one hell of a hometown discount for that to happen IMO.

The whole salary thing is a matter of perspective. I find it interesting that no one was complaining about Rondo's salary when we were paying him less than Tony Allen. But then we balk at the possibility that Rondo could want half the amount that Paul Pierce makes, even though Rondo is arguably as valuable (or maybe more valuable) to the team...

The preservative boils down to two things. consistency and the ability to shoot a jump shot when open.

Rajon has shown neither of those, paul has. 8 per is fine, more is not.

  There are plenty of players who can hit the open jump shot that don't have anywhere near the positive effect on a game as Rondo. In 07-08 many people here felt that the big three were so good they'd do just as well with any pg until Rondo was slowed by injuries and the wheels started to fall off the bus. If Rondo had missed more than the couple of games he did this year he'd be seen as a lot less expendable here.

can you name me an inconsistent guard who can't shoot that makes the maximum tim? or even 10 per?

I'm not arguing that he's not a key part of our team, im arguing that the team shouldn't drop a max contract on him simply because they bid against themselves.

To me, 4 to 5 years at 8 million per is very good for rondo, looking around the league.
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2009, 03:12:04 PM »

Offline MrTripleDouble10

  • Derrick White
  • Posts: 289
  • Tommy Points: 67
Just as a reminder from when Steve Bulpett was on CelticsStuff Live:

Steve displayed some disappointment that the team felt it was necessary to keep the media and the fans in the dark regarding Garnett’s injury status, but it didn’t appear that he’s ready to throw hands with the "Wycster". We broached the subject of the Ray/Rondo rumor and Steve noted that the team is going to listen to everyone, but indicated that the team made the deals it did for Allen and Garnett to win as many championships as it could with them as key players on the Celtics. Fast forwarding to the present, Celtics are resolved to keeping Rondo in uniform for his entire career, and that neither the team nor Rondo’s agent are looking at maximum contract money in a deal. Certainly good news for the Rondo fans, like myself, out there. However Steve mentioned the team seems much more committed to building around Pierce, Garnett, and Rondo than Ray.

Seems to me that Rondo isn't looking for a crazy extension.

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2009, 03:12:14 PM »

Offline Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 47136
  • Tommy Points: 2401
How much does a max contract cost for Rondo?

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2009, 03:17:51 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
I don't know, I might have to sharpen the pitchfork if we trade Rondo for anyone not named Chris Paul

But would you give him Chris Paul's contract? That's the key issue. People seem to be unwilling to give him up for anything but an elite player but then when it comes to salary, he's in Jose Calderon/Kirk Hinrich territory. He'd have to agree to one hell of a hometown discount for that to happen IMO.

The whole salary thing is a matter of perspective. I find it interesting that no one was complaining about Rondo's salary when we were paying him less than Tony Allen. But then we balk at the possibility that Rondo could want half the amount that Paul Pierce makes, even though Rondo is arguably as valuable (or maybe more valuable) to the team...

The preservative boils down to two things. consistency and the ability to shoot a jump shot when open.

Rajon has shown neither of those, paul has. 8 per is fine, more is not.

  There are plenty of players who can hit the open jump shot that don't have anywhere near the positive effect on a game as Rondo. In 07-08 many people here felt that the big three were so good they'd do just as well with any pg until Rondo was slowed by injuries and the wheels started to fall off the bus. If Rondo had missed more than the couple of games he did this year he'd be seen as a lot less expendable here.

can you name me an inconsistent guard who can't shoot that makes the maximum tim? or even 10 per?

I'm not arguing that he's not a key part of our team, im arguing that the team shouldn't drop a max contract on him simply because they bid against themselves.

To me, 4 to 5 years at 8 million per is very good for rondo, looking around the league.

  The maximum is quite a bit above 8 million a year. Rondo's inconsistency has been greatly exaggerated on this board. But how many "inconsistent guards who can't shoot" in the league are as key to their teams as Rondo is to ours? I guess it depends on how you rate Rondo, including his shooting but not exclusively on his shooting. Many people here would put him in the top 5-8 pgs. What would the going rate be for a 23 year old who's already in that category after 2 years as a starter?

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2009, 03:20:12 PM »

Offline crownsy

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8469
  • Tommy Points: 157
I don't know, I might have to sharpen the pitchfork if we trade Rondo for anyone not named Chris Paul

But would you give him Chris Paul's contract? That's the key issue. People seem to be unwilling to give him up for anything but an elite player but then when it comes to salary, he's in Jose Calderon/Kirk Hinrich territory. He'd have to agree to one hell of a hometown discount for that to happen IMO.

The whole salary thing is a matter of perspective. I find it interesting that no one was complaining about Rondo's salary when we were paying him less than Tony Allen. But then we balk at the possibility that Rondo could want half the amount that Paul Pierce makes, even though Rondo is arguably as valuable (or maybe more valuable) to the team...

The preservative boils down to two things. consistency and the ability to shoot a jump shot when open.

Rajon has shown neither of those, paul has. 8 per is fine, more is not.

  There are plenty of players who can hit the open jump shot that don't have anywhere near the positive effect on a game as Rondo. In 07-08 many people here felt that the big three were so good they'd do just as well with any pg until Rondo was slowed by injuries and the wheels started to fall off the bus. If Rondo had missed more than the couple of games he did this year he'd be seen as a lot less expendable here.

can you name me an inconsistent guard who can't shoot that makes the maximum tim? or even 10 per?

I'm not arguing that he's not a key part of our team, im arguing that the team shouldn't drop a max contract on him simply because they bid against themselves.

To me, 4 to 5 years at 8 million per is very good for rondo, looking around the league.

  The maximum is quite a bit above 8 million a year. Rondo's inconsistency has been greatly exaggerated on this board. But how many "inconsistent guards who can't shoot" in the league are as key to their teams as Rondo is to ours? I guess it depends on how you rate Rondo, including his shooting but not exclusively on his shooting. Many people here would put him in the top 5-8 pgs. What would the going rate be for a 23 year old who's already in that category after 2 years as a starter?

 what do you think it is?

I think its about 8 million, as ive said, plus the built in raises, until he is 27-28 depending on the years signed. I think that's pretty reasonable for both sides, and allows rondo to get his new contract right in his prime.

What do you think his value is?
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2009, 03:20:32 PM »

Offline pengaloo

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 522
  • Tommy Points: 76
I don't know, I might have to sharpen the pitchfork if we trade Rondo for anyone not named Chris Paul

But would you give him Chris Paul's contract? That's the key issue. People seem to be unwilling to give him up for anything but an elite player but then when it comes to salary, he's in Jose Calderon/Kirk Hinrich territory. He'd have to agree to one hell of a hometown discount for that to happen IMO.

The whole salary thing is a matter of perspective. I find it interesting that no one was complaining about Rondo's salary when we were paying him less than Tony Allen. But then we balk at the possibility that Rondo could want half the amount that Paul Pierce makes, even though Rondo is arguably as valuable (or maybe more valuable) to the team...

The preservative boils down to two things. consistency and the ability to shoot a jump shot when open.

Rajon has shown neither of those, paul has. 8 per is fine, more is not.

  There are plenty of players who can hit the open jump shot that don't have anywhere near the positive effect on a game as Rondo. In 07-08 many people here felt that the big three were so good they'd do just as well with any pg until Rondo was slowed by injuries and the wheels started to fall off the bus. If Rondo had missed more than the couple of games he did this year he'd be seen as a lot less expendable here.

can you name me an inconsistent guard who can't shoot that makes the maximum tim? or even 10 per?

I'm not arguing that he's not a key part of our team, im arguing that the team shouldn't drop a max contract on him simply because they bid against themselves.

To me, 4 to 5 years at 8 million per is very good for rondo, looking around the league.

I don't know much about salaries, but is 8 million/yr about 50% below max contract money? And if Rondo is at least half as good as CP3, then isn't 8 million/yr on the low end?

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2009, 03:35:38 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
 The maximum is quite a bit above 8 million a year. Rondo's inconsistency has been greatly exaggerated on this board. But how many "inconsistent guards who can't shoot" in the league are as key to their teams as Rondo is to ours? I guess it depends on how you rate Rondo, including his shooting but not exclusively on his shooting. Many people here would put him in the top 5-8 pgs. What would the going rate be for a 23 year old who's already in that category after 2 years as a starter?

 what do you think it is?

I think its about 8 million, as ive said, plus the built in raises, until he is 27-28 depending on the years signed. I think that's pretty reasonable for both sides, and allows rondo to get his new contract right in his prime.

What do you think his value is?

  Go ahead and label this a cop out, because I would, but I really don't have a good idea on what effect the economy is going to have on salaries. If this were last summer I'd say 10 million+, but I think that it's a great unknown this offseason. But I do know that my top offer wouldn't be 8 million. I don't think he's as replaceable as many here do and I think that we'll need more production from that spot as the big three continue to age.

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2009, 03:37:34 PM »

Offline SoulHonky

  • The Green Kornet
  • Posts: 88
  • Tommy Points: 3
why do I have to give him Chris Paul money?  I just said I'd trade him for nobody but CP3

I just don't know how someone could say that the ONLY person they'd deal Rondo for is an MVP caliber talent and then turn around and expect him to sign a deal for $10 million a year. I'd also venture a guess that Rondo's agent would have a problem with this logic as well.

And, in response to paintitgreen's comment, the CP3 example isn't the only one. People are labelling him equally important to the C's success as Pierce, one of the top PG's in the NBA, an untouchable talent, etc. To hold Rondo that high but then not be willing to open the banks for him seems off.
The Rondomino Effect @ www.soulhonky.com

Re: David Thorpe Chat/Second pick trade with Rondo
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2009, 03:41:47 PM »

Offline jdpapa3

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3884
  • Tommy Points: 85
If I am Rondo's agent, I laugh at 8 million a year. I bring up Kirk Hinrich and a few others.

As a fan, I am scared that I am being too "what have you done for me lately?" with Rondo. I was so proud of the kid during the Chicago series. He looked like he had finally made the leap. He was just not good on offense or defense of the Orlando series. I am terrified that his offensive issue will just never go away. He scores a ton of his points with quickness and agility. Those attributes are only going to go fade.

I think there could be serious smoke to these Rondo involved trade rumors. Look at Doc and Danny. They were both on great teams that didn't have a pure 1 guard. They were combo guards. Danny's not necessarily a guy that feels the need for a pure point guard. I don't know if he will give the kid a 10 mil + per year contract.

Maybe Rubio's got the Magic Johnson brain type... maybe Danny sees Harden being a young Paul Pierce (the more film i watch on Harden, the more i like him)...maybe Kidd to Boston is a hidden done deal...

I doubt this offseason ends with no major action out of Boston.