Author Topic: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?  (Read 60857 times)

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Re: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?
« Reply #225 on: June 11, 2009, 12:46:19 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  You don't need a pg, per se, but you need talented players aside from a very good big. It doesn't have to be a pg just like it doesn't have to be a sf or sg but it can be a pg. So while you don't always need a good pg, you can't always win without one. If you want to put your theory that you don't need a good pg to the ultimate test, go back to all the years where the winning team had a good/great pg. Players like Magic, Isaiah, Parker and Billups. Would those teams have all won the title with Alston or Fisher as their starting pg? If not, you need to go back and refine your theory.
The Spurs won 3 titles when Parker was an average PG, the fourth was the only year he was playing at an all star level.  Billups actually was significantly more efficient and just overall better in the four years following the title run then during the title run (and was not an all star until 05-06). 

Obviously Zeke and Magic were key, if not the key, player on their title teams.  That is however clearly the exception, not the rule, and Magic was 6'9" not exactly your typical PG.

NBA Championship PG's - Rank as importance to team - Their league wide position
Rondo - 4th - Average (and that is generous)
Parker - 2nd - All Star
Payton/Williams - 4th - Average (and that is generous)
Parker - 3rd - Above Average
Billups - Anywhere from 1st to 5th - Above Average
Parker - 2nd - Above Average
Fisher - 3rd/4th - Below Average
Fisher - 3rd/4th - Below Average
Harper - 4th/5th - Poor
A. Johnson - 3rd - Below Average

It is pretty similar until you hit Zeke's Piston teams.  PG is far and away the least important position when determining the league champion.

  You're missing the point, or possibly a couple of points. First of all, you didn't really address my point. Would all (or almost all) of the teams that won the title with good pg play have definitely won the title with Rafer Alston or the current Derek Fisher playing for them? If not, then your "you don't need a good pg to win" theory needs some refining. Also, if you go back over the last 20 years or so, there have been a lot of teams that won with weak play from their centers (SA and Chicago, for starters), or with average to below average small or power forwards. Are those positions also unimportant?

  To win the title you need an all-star big man, and almost of the time a great defensive big. You also need to have another elite player (can be any of sf or sg or pg) and another very good player (again, usually from the sf/sg/pg area). You can win if your best non-big is a sf (Pierce), a sg (Wade), or a pg (Parker). None of those positions are necessarily more important than the other and trying to pursue a great player at one of the spots and not another makes no sense.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 01:07:19 PM by BballTim »

Re: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?
« Reply #226 on: June 11, 2009, 01:02:29 PM »

Online Moranis

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The thing about Rondo is, with a healthy Celtics team, he is not going to get those kind of numbers he put up in the playoffs this year, next year. It took some pretty poor performances by either Ray or PP this year to allow him to accomplish what he did.

So let's not go crazy over Rondo's talent. I do not want to trade Rondo or Ray Ray, but I honestly think the C's are still a contender for the title with either of them being replaced by someone decent.

Doesn't your argument suggest the importance of keeping Rondo though? Next year, Ray, Paul, and KG are going to be a year older and most likely will have pretty poor performances at times (even when they're "healthy"). So next year, we need a PG who is more than just decent to win a title...
except you don't need a PG at all to win the title, unless of course you think Derek Fisher and Rafer Alston are "PG's"

  You don't need a pg, per se, but you need talented players aside from a very good big. It doesn't have to be a pg just like it doesn't have to be a sf or sg but it can be a pg. So while you don't always need a good pg, you can't always win without one. If you want to put your theory that you don't need a good pg to the ultimate test, go back to all the years where the winning team had a good/great pg. Players like Magic, Isaiah, Parker and Billups. Would those teams have all won the title with Alston or Fisher as their starting pg? If not, you need to go back and refine your theory.
The Spurs won 3 titles when Parker was an average PG, the fourth was the only year he was playing at an all star level.  Billups actually was significantly more efficient and just overall better in the four years following the title run then during the title run (and was not an all star until 05-06). 

Obviously Zeke and Magic were key, if not the key, player on their title teams.  That is however clearly the exception, not the rule, and Magic was 6'9" not exactly your typical PG.

NBA Championship PG's - Rank as importance to team - Their league wide position
Rondo - 4th - Average (and that is generous)
Parker - 2nd - All Star
Payton/Williams - 4th - Average (and that is generous)
Parker - 3rd - Above Average
Billups - Anywhere from 1st to 5th - Above Average
Parker - 2nd - Above Average
Fisher - 3rd/4th - Below Average
Fisher - 3rd/4th - Below Average
Harper - 4th/5th - Poor
A. Johnson - 3rd - Below Average

It is pretty similar until you hit Zeke's Piston teams.  PG is far and away the least important position when determining the league champion.
I'd like your argument more if you weren't leaving out the 80s which puts a giant hole in your argument. Leaving out Magic's Lakers and Isiah's Pistons is criminal if you're discussing the importance of PG play to championship teams.

Big men are the most important players in all of Basketball. After that talent is talent in my opinion. Whether at the 1, 2, or 3. Even then plenty of teams have won with merely strong 4/5s rather than great ones.
one decade in the history of NBA basketball in which 7 title teams were led by a HOF PG is the exception.  And 5 of those 7 titles, the PG was 6'9" and played multiple positions for his team (including famously playing center at one point). 

Since Zeke in 1990 Parker (in the fourth Spurs title) has been the only championship winning PG to appear in an All Star game in the title season.  And it isn't like the team losing in the Finals has an All Star PG.  The last losing team with an All Star PG was the Nets and Jason Kidd in 02/03 (who were also there in 01/02).  Prior to Kidd you have to drop back to Stockton in 96/97 (stockton wasn't an all star in 97/98).
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Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?
« Reply #227 on: June 11, 2009, 02:21:29 PM »

Offline Cman

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well I mean beyond this, who is perpetuating the rumor that Jason Kidd or Andre Miller A) Want anything to do with us, or B) Would sign for a partial share of the mid-level exception?

We're gonna sign Mcdyess and Kidd/Miller for 5 million combined? I wouldn't call that feasible.

Agreed.  It stretches belief. 

But I guess that is part of what these forums are about.  I mean, does anyone seriously believe that management is going to (a) sign BBD to an extension, (b) use the full MLE on a FA or two, and then (c) use the LLE on another player?

The most realistic option is that management keeps the current team intact, extends BBD, signs Powe to short money, and uses vet min contracts to fill out the roster...
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Re: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?
« Reply #228 on: June 11, 2009, 03:24:09 PM »

Offline liam

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Couldn't we sign and trade Powe to a non-guaranteed contract at $7.65 million and pick up Marcus Cam by? Then the Clippers just cut Powe. Camby would be a good backup at two positions.

Re: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?
« Reply #229 on: June 11, 2009, 03:27:15 PM »

Offline crownsy

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Couldn't we sign and trade Powe to a non-guaranteed contract at $7.65 million and pick up Marcus Cam by? Then the Clippers just cut Powe. Camby would be a good backup at two positions.

why would powe sign that if it wasen't guaranteed and knew he was getting cut and wouldn't see the money?

Are you implying we'd lie to him and screw him out of 7.65 million after he signed in good faith with the clippers or that we would engage in colusion with him and let him know the contract and money are red herrings?
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Re: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?
« Reply #230 on: June 11, 2009, 03:29:45 PM »

Offline Chris

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Just to throw out another crazy theory about the C's inquiring about the second pick...

What if Wyc's proclamations of them not limiting the money they can spend this summer is just spin.  So Ainge is offering Rondo to Memphis for the #2, as long as the Memphis also takes on the contracts of Scal, Tony and Giddens?  This gives the C's a little more breathing room to work with, but also gives them a trade exception worth $9 million (or would it create separate trade exceptions for each of the salaries they send out?). 

Unless Memphis was targetting someone this offseason (which I kind of doubt), this won't really affect their cap room since those all are expiring.

Then the C's could use the trade exception to fill a couple holes, a lot easier, since other teams wouldn't need to take on any salary at all to send it out...and they would still have the #2 pick, if they really are lusting after Rubio.

This is exactly the type of move I could see Danny doing...although I wonder how Memphis' owners would feel about it.

Re: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?
« Reply #231 on: June 11, 2009, 03:30:18 PM »

Offline Chris

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Couldn't we sign and trade Powe to a non-guaranteed contract at $7.65 million and pick up Marcus Cam by? Then the Clippers just cut Powe. Camby would be a good backup at two positions.

Nope, BYC rules make this impossible.

Re: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?
« Reply #232 on: June 11, 2009, 04:41:34 PM »

Offline winsomme

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The thing about Rondo is, with a healthy Celtics team, he is not going to get those kind of numbers he put up in the playoffs this year, next year. It took some pretty poor performances by either Ray or PP this year to allow him to accomplish what he did.

So let's not go crazy over Rondo's talent. I do not want to trade Rondo or Ray Ray, but I honestly think the C's are still a contender for the title with either of them being replaced by someone decent.

Doesn't your argument suggest the importance of keeping Rondo though? Next year, Ray, Paul, and KG are going to be a year older and most likely will have pretty poor performances at times (even when they're "healthy"). So next year, we need a PG who is more than just decent to win a title...
except you don't need a PG at all to win the title, unless of course you think Derek Fisher and Rafer Alston are "PG's"

  You don't need a pg, per se, but you need talented players aside from a very good big. It doesn't have to be a pg just like it doesn't have to be a sf or sg but it can be a pg. So while you don't always need a good pg, you can't always win without one. If you want to put your theory that you don't need a good pg to the ultimate test, go back to all the years where the winning team had a good/great pg. Players like Magic, Isaiah, Parker and Billups. Would those teams have all won the title with Alston or Fisher as their starting pg? If not, you need to go back and refine your theory.
The Spurs won 3 titles when Parker was an average PG, the fourth was the only year he was playing at an all star level.  Billups actually was significantly more efficient and just overall better in the four years following the title run then during the title run (and was not an all star until 05-06). 

Obviously Zeke and Magic were key, if not the key, player on their title teams.  That is however clearly the exception, not the rule, and Magic was 6'9" not exactly your typical PG.

NBA Championship PG's - Rank as importance to team - Their league wide position
Rondo - 4th - Average (and that is generous)
Parker - 2nd - All Star
Payton/Williams - 4th - Average (and that is generous)
Parker - 3rd - Above Average
Billups - Anywhere from 1st to 5th - Above Average
Parker - 2nd - Above Average
Fisher - 3rd/4th - Below Average
Fisher - 3rd/4th - Below Average
Harper - 4th/5th - Poor
A. Johnson - 3rd - Below Average

It is pretty similar until you hit Zeke's Piston teams.  PG is far and away the least important position when determining the league champion.

couldn't this be as much a product of the quality of PGs as it is the importance of the position?

I mean, what percentage of ALL-TIME greats are PGs....

certainly Zeke, Magic, Parker and Billups have shown that a great PG can lead a team to a Title. And we all know that Nash got jobbed in 07 with the Amare suspension.

Let's see how CP3 and DWill do in these next few years...clearly they are franchise players at the PG position.

Re: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?
« Reply #233 on: June 11, 2009, 06:01:08 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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Memphis:
Trades #2, Gay, Arthur, #27, and Darko
Receives Rondo, David Lee, and Glenn Davis (with contract extensions), along with Wilson Chandler and Eddie Curry, Boston's 2010 1st

New York:
Trades Eddie Curry, Wilson Chandler, David Lee
Receives Darko, #27, Arthur

Boston:
Trades Rondo, Big Baby, 2010 1st
Receives #2 & Gay

Memphis:
PG: Rondo, Mike C., Marko J.
SG: OJ, Buckner, #36
SF: W. Chandler, Hakim
PF: Lee, Big Baby
C: Gasol, Eddie C, Haddadi

This Memphis team has a nice balance. It becomes more experienced, tougher, deeper, and improves the defensive character of the Grizz. Memphis picks up another first rounder for next year to pair with their other firsts to move up in the draft of 2010.

Knicks do this to shed Curry's contract. They give up two good pieces to shed salary for 2010, so they obviously lose in the short-term. However, they will be a lottery team and should receive a very good pick in 2010 (possibly the first pick in a strong draft) while potentially upgrading Lee and Chandler to Bosh and LeBron. If the gamble pays off, they are the easy winners in this trade.

2009/2010
PG: Duhon, Nate(resigned), #8 (Curry)
SG: Hughes, Joe Crawford
SF: Richardson, Gallinari, #27
PF: Harrington, Jefferies, Arthur
C: Gortat (MLE), Darko, Sene

2010/2011
Steph Curry, Duhon, Nate
Hughes (resigned), 2010 Lottery Pick
Lebron, Gallinari, (2009 #27)
Bosh, Harrington (resigned), Arthur
Gortat, ???

Boston will only do this if they feel Rondo is going to ask for too much money next year and essentially handcuff the organization. Rubio won't be ready to lead the Celtics, so they have to pray Kidd, Miller, or Bibby is willing to take the mid-level for a chance at a ring two years while grooming Rubio. The Cs also have to trade their expiring contracts for a serviceable big and hope to get a ring-chaser for the LLE. Boston has the expiring contracts of House (if he signs his player option), T. Allen, Scal, Pruitt (team option), and Giddens (team option) to trade for a big from a team looking to dump salary. If things worked out, they could field a team that would compete for a title for at least two more years while continuing to add younger pieces to stay competitive even longer.

PG: Miller or Kidd (MLE), Rubio
SG: Allen, Pruitt
SG: Pierce, Gay, Walker
PF: KG, Antonio McD (LLE), Powe
C: Perkins, Kaman (Trade)
C's already traded away 2009 pick so 2010 pick cannot be traded-->teams cannot trade away 1st round draft picks in consecutive years.  The famous Ted Stepian rule from the days when he drove Cleveland into the ground.

This is true, but in this scenario the Cs get the second pick this year. Thus, they would be fine to trade next year's pick.

Actually, the rule is that they cannot trade away their own pick for two consecutive future drafts.  Which means that it would make no difference if they get the #2 pick, unless they had their own pick back, they still could not trade next years pick....


Until after the draft.  This is the key.  After the draft the C's can in fact trade their 2010 pick.  This means they could actually agree to the trade before the draft, have the other team pick for them, and then complete the trade when the draft is over.

Chris, I don't think that this is true. the way i've heard it explained is that the rule essentially means that a team must use a first round draft pick every other year. For example, a team has all of it's own picks in 2010, 2011, and 2012 and another team's first round pick in 2011, they can trade their own first round picks in 2010, 2011, and 2012 since they would have a first round pick in 2011 and wouldn't be going consecutive years without a future draft pick.

Additionally, a team can trade it's own pick after the draft as many years in a row as it wants, even if the picks end up being consecutive. For example, on the night of the 2010 draft, a team could draft a player and trade him along with their 2011 first rounder, since technically they utilized the pick in the 2010 draft. Furthermore, after the completion of the 2009 draft, the celtics can trade their 2010 pick since the rule only applies to "future" picks.

So if the C's got the 2nd pick this year before or after the draft, they could trade next year's pick since they utilized a pick this season or this year's first round pick is no longer a future pick.

From Coon's FAQ:

Quote
Teams are restricted from trading away future first round draft picks in consecutive years. This is known as the "Ted Stepien Rule." Stepien owned the Cavs from 1980-83, and made a series of bad trades (such as the above-mentioned 1982 trade) that cost the Cavs several years' first round picks. As a result of Stepien's ineptitude, teams are now prevented from making trades which might leave them without a first round pick in consecutive future years.

The Stepien rule applies only to future first round picks. For example, if this is the 2005-06 season, then a team can trade its 2006 first round pick without regard to whether they had traded their 2005 pick, since their 2005 pick is no longer a future pick. But they can't trade away both their 2006 and 2007 picks, since both are future picks. Teams sometimes work around this rule by trading first round picks in alternate years.

These rules often combine to make trade terms very complicated. For example, if a team owes another team two future first round picks, and both picks are protected, then the first pick would be conveyed in the first draft in which it is not a Protected Pick (as described above), and the second pick would be conveyed in the "First Allowable Draft" (per the Stepien rule) or subsequent draft, in which that pick is not a Protected Pick. But since both picks must be conveyed within seven years, the protection on the first pick cannot last more than four years (i.e., the first pick must be conveyed by the fifth year).

Other rules that pertain to trading draft picks:

    * It appears that pick protections cannot increase from one year to another (for example, if picks 1-10 are protected in 2010, then picks 1-10 or 1-5 can be protected in 2011, but picks 1-12 cannot). However, while this rule appears to exist (there are no counterexamples in the currently outstanding trades), I have not been able to confirm this rule's existence.
    * Any or all teams in a trade may be granted the one-time option to defer the conveyance or receipt of a pick for one year (only). For example, a trade between Miami and Orlando that includes Miami's 2009 first round draft pick might provide Miami with the option to defer the pick to 2010. In addition:
          o A team can exercise a pick deferment only once.
          o The conveyance of a pick can be deferred for only one year.
          o A Protected Pick (as described above) cannot be deferred.
          o The deferrment is subject to the Seven Year Rule. A pick in the seventh year following a trade cannot be deferred.
    * Teams are required to have only a first round pick, and not necessarily their first round pick. So teams may trade away their own future picks in consecutive years if they have another team's first round pick in one of those years.
    * A team cannot sign and immediately trade a draft pick in a sign-and-trade arrangement (see question number 76).

Re: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?
« Reply #234 on: June 11, 2009, 06:51:38 PM »

Offline Jon Niednagel

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Chris, I don't think that this is true. the way i've heard it explained is that the rule essentially means that a team must use a first round draft pick every other year. For example, a team has all of it's own picks in 2010, 2011, and 2012 and another team's first round pick in 2011, they can trade their own first round picks in 2010, 2011, and 2012 since they would have a first round pick in 2011 and wouldn't be going consecutive years without a future draft pick.

Additionally, a team can trade it's own pick after the draft as many years in a row as it wants, even if the picks end up being consecutive. For example, on the night of the 2010 draft, a team could draft a player and trade him along with their 2011 first rounder, since technically they utilized the pick in the 2010 draft. Furthermore, after the completion of the 2009 draft, the celtics can trade their 2010 pick since the rule only applies to "future" picks.

So if the C's got the 2nd pick this year before or after the draft, they could trade next year's pick since they utilized a pick this season or this year's first round pick is no longer a future pick.

From Coon's FAQ:

Quote
Teams are restricted from trading away future first round draft picks in consecutive years. This is known as the "Ted Stepien Rule." Stepien owned the Cavs from 1980-83, and made a series of bad trades (such as the above-mentioned 1982 trade) that cost the Cavs several years' first round picks. As a result of Stepien's ineptitude, teams are now prevented from making trades which might leave them without a first round pick in consecutive future years.

The Stepien rule applies only to future first round picks. For example, if this is the 2005-06 season, then a team can trade its 2006 first round pick without regard to whether they had traded their 2005 pick, since their 2005 pick is no longer a future pick. But they can't trade away both their 2006 and 2007 picks, since both are future picks. Teams sometimes work around this rule by trading first round picks in alternate years.

These rules often combine to make trade terms very complicated. For example, if a team owes another team two future first round picks, and both picks are protected, then the first pick would be conveyed in the first draft in which it is not a Protected Pick (as described above), and the second pick would be conveyed in the "First Allowable Draft" (per the Stepien rule) or subsequent draft, in which that pick is not a Protected Pick. But since both picks must be conveyed within seven years, the protection on the first pick cannot last more than four years (i.e., the first pick must be conveyed by the fifth year).

Other rules that pertain to trading draft picks:

    * It appears that pick protections cannot increase from one year to another (for example, if picks 1-10 are protected in 2010, then picks 1-10 or 1-5 can be protected in 2011, but picks 1-12 cannot). However, while this rule appears to exist (there are no counterexamples in the currently outstanding trades), I have not been able to confirm this rule's existence.
    * Any or all teams in a trade may be granted the one-time option to defer the conveyance or receipt of a pick for one year (only). For example, a trade between Miami and Orlando that includes Miami's 2009 first round draft pick might provide Miami with the option to defer the pick to 2010. In addition:
          o A team can exercise a pick deferment only once.
          o The conveyance of a pick can be deferred for only one year.
          o A Protected Pick (as described above) cannot be deferred.
          o The deferrment is subject to the Seven Year Rule. A pick in the seventh year following a trade cannot be deferred.
    * Teams are required to have only a first round pick, and not necessarily their first round pick. So teams may trade away their own future picks in consecutive years if they have another team's first round pick in one of those years.
    * A team cannot sign and immediately trade a draft pick in a sign-and-trade arrangement (see question number 76).

FFVT, that is the way I have always understood the rule as well so thanks for clearing it up. TP for you.
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Re: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?
« Reply #235 on: June 11, 2009, 09:14:11 PM »

Offline Chris

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Memphis:
Trades #2, Gay, Arthur, #27, and Darko
Receives Rondo, David Lee, and Glenn Davis (with contract extensions), along with Wilson Chandler and Eddie Curry, Boston's 2010 1st

New York:
Trades Eddie Curry, Wilson Chandler, David Lee
Receives Darko, #27, Arthur

Boston:
Trades Rondo, Big Baby, 2010 1st
Receives #2 & Gay

Memphis:
PG: Rondo, Mike C., Marko J.
SG: OJ, Buckner, #36
SF: W. Chandler, Hakim
PF: Lee, Big Baby
C: Gasol, Eddie C, Haddadi

This Memphis team has a nice balance. It becomes more experienced, tougher, deeper, and improves the defensive character of the Grizz. Memphis picks up another first rounder for next year to pair with their other firsts to move up in the draft of 2010.

Knicks do this to shed Curry's contract. They give up two good pieces to shed salary for 2010, so they obviously lose in the short-term. However, they will be a lottery team and should receive a very good pick in 2010 (possibly the first pick in a strong draft) while potentially upgrading Lee and Chandler to Bosh and LeBron. If the gamble pays off, they are the easy winners in this trade.

2009/2010
PG: Duhon, Nate(resigned), #8 (Curry)
SG: Hughes, Joe Crawford
SF: Richardson, Gallinari, #27
PF: Harrington, Jefferies, Arthur
C: Gortat (MLE), Darko, Sene

2010/2011
Steph Curry, Duhon, Nate
Hughes (resigned), 2010 Lottery Pick
Lebron, Gallinari, (2009 #27)
Bosh, Harrington (resigned), Arthur
Gortat, ???

Boston will only do this if they feel Rondo is going to ask for too much money next year and essentially handcuff the organization. Rubio won't be ready to lead the Celtics, so they have to pray Kidd, Miller, or Bibby is willing to take the mid-level for a chance at a ring two years while grooming Rubio. The Cs also have to trade their expiring contracts for a serviceable big and hope to get a ring-chaser for the LLE. Boston has the expiring contracts of House (if he signs his player option), T. Allen, Scal, Pruitt (team option), and Giddens (team option) to trade for a big from a team looking to dump salary. If things worked out, they could field a team that would compete for a title for at least two more years while continuing to add younger pieces to stay competitive even longer.

PG: Miller or Kidd (MLE), Rubio
SG: Allen, Pruitt
SG: Pierce, Gay, Walker
PF: KG, Antonio McD (LLE), Powe
C: Perkins, Kaman (Trade)
C's already traded away 2009 pick so 2010 pick cannot be traded-->teams cannot trade away 1st round draft picks in consecutive years.  The famous Ted Stepian rule from the days when he drove Cleveland into the ground.

This is true, but in this scenario the Cs get the second pick this year. Thus, they would be fine to trade next year's pick.

Actually, the rule is that they cannot trade away their own pick for two consecutive future drafts.  Which means that it would make no difference if they get the #2 pick, unless they had their own pick back, they still could not trade next years pick....


Until after the draft.  This is the key.  After the draft the C's can in fact trade their 2010 pick.  This means they could actually agree to the trade before the draft, have the other team pick for them, and then complete the trade when the draft is over.

Chris, I don't think that this is true. the way i've heard it explained is that the rule essentially means that a team must use a first round draft pick every other year. For example, a team has all of it's own picks in 2010, 2011, and 2012 and another team's first round pick in 2011, they can trade their own first round picks in 2010, 2011, and 2012 since they would have a first round pick in 2011 and wouldn't be going consecutive years without a future draft pick.

Additionally, a team can trade it's own pick after the draft as many years in a row as it wants, even if the picks end up being consecutive. For example, on the night of the 2010 draft, a team could draft a player and trade him along with their 2011 first rounder, since technically they utilized the pick in the 2010 draft. Furthermore, after the completion of the 2009 draft, the celtics can trade their 2010 pick since the rule only applies to "future" picks.

So if the C's got the 2nd pick this year before or after the draft, they could trade next year's pick since they utilized a pick this season or this year's first round pick is no longer a future pick.

From Coon's FAQ:

Quote
Teams are restricted from trading away future first round draft picks in consecutive years. This is known as the "Ted Stepien Rule." Stepien owned the Cavs from 1980-83, and made a series of bad trades (such as the above-mentioned 1982 trade) that cost the Cavs several years' first round picks. As a result of Stepien's ineptitude, teams are now prevented from making trades which might leave them without a first round pick in consecutive future years.

The Stepien rule applies only to future first round picks. For example, if this is the 2005-06 season, then a team can trade its 2006 first round pick without regard to whether they had traded their 2005 pick, since their 2005 pick is no longer a future pick. But they can't trade away both their 2006 and 2007 picks, since both are future picks. Teams sometimes work around this rule by trading first round picks in alternate years.

These rules often combine to make trade terms very complicated. For example, if a team owes another team two future first round picks, and both picks are protected, then the first pick would be conveyed in the first draft in which it is not a Protected Pick (as described above), and the second pick would be conveyed in the "First Allowable Draft" (per the Stepien rule) or subsequent draft, in which that pick is not a Protected Pick. But since both picks must be conveyed within seven years, the protection on the first pick cannot last more than four years (i.e., the first pick must be conveyed by the fifth year).

Other rules that pertain to trading draft picks:

    * It appears that pick protections cannot increase from one year to another (for example, if picks 1-10 are protected in 2010, then picks 1-10 or 1-5 can be protected in 2011, but picks 1-12 cannot). However, while this rule appears to exist (there are no counterexamples in the currently outstanding trades), I have not been able to confirm this rule's existence.
    * Any or all teams in a trade may be granted the one-time option to defer the conveyance or receipt of a pick for one year (only). For example, a trade between Miami and Orlando that includes Miami's 2009 first round draft pick might provide Miami with the option to defer the pick to 2010. In addition:
          o A team can exercise a pick deferment only once.
          o The conveyance of a pick can be deferred for only one year.
          o A Protected Pick (as described above) cannot be deferred.
          o The deferrment is subject to the Seven Year Rule. A pick in the seventh year following a trade cannot be deferred.
    * Teams are required to have only a first round pick, and not necessarily their first round pick. So teams may trade away their own future picks in consecutive years if they have another team's first round pick in one of those years.
    * A team cannot sign and immediately trade a draft pick in a sign-and-trade arrangement (see question number 76).

Hmmm, I had definitely heard differently, but I stand corrected.  TP. 

Its a moot point anyways in this case though, since as I said, the C's could still trade away next years pick on draft day, by officially announcing the trade after the draft.

Re: C's interested in acquiring the second pick?
« Reply #236 on: June 11, 2009, 09:54:30 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Couldn't we sign and trade Powe to a non-guaranteed contract at $7.65 million and pick up Marcus Cam by? Then the Clippers just cut Powe. Camby would be a good backup at two positions.
I assume that 7.65m contract is over 3 seasons