Another Kevin Martin idea... and just another idea

[Roy Hobbs]

Really? Wow, that blows us out of the water as far as financial savings go. Any idea when those guarantee decisions have to be made?

I'm not sure about when Pavlovic's deal becomes fully guaranteed, if there are any milestones, etc.  With Delonte, his deal is fully guaranteed this season, but only $500k of next year's is.

[Roy Hobbs]

Cleveland trades: Ben Wallace, Sasha Pavlovic, Delonte West, J.J. Hickson ($24,433,450 salaries; $21.18 million guaranteed)

Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

So cleveland's starting five is Mo Williams, Kevin Martin, Lebron James, Varejao and Z... ummm that's a lot of shooters my friends.  The knock on Martin is his poor passing, so this deal wouldnt make a ton of sense for cleveland.  But more than that, the Cavs are looking for size this offseason, not two guards and small forward... just doesnt seem like something they would do.

Lebron has lacked a scoring sidekick his entire career.  He would absolutely *love* to have Kevin Martin.  Also, with the starting lineup comment, are you suggesting that the Cavs are better with Delonte West in the starting lineup than they would be with Kevin Martin?  They'll still be able to add big men to their team via free agency, and if the want, they can trade Z's contract for an upgrade, as well.

Houston trades:  Tmac, Carl Landry ($25,483,124)

Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

This one actually makes lot of sense, and is comparable to the celts deal.  Though, I think trading Landry would leave this team very thin on the front line.  And Tmac's buy out is 4 million more than Ray Allens, which is a lot of money when you're looking at a straight salary dump.  But you're right, lowry and landry are significantly better than what the celtics can offer.

Miami trades: Jermaine O'Neal, Mario Chalmers ($23,772,000)

Sacramento trades: Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

This one is just OK.  Would the Heat just move Wade over to point guard?  I mean I think this is another team thats looking for size, remember these teams are getting 29 million worth of guards and a small forward.  So why does Miami invest that much money in a backcourt that's already pretty great when what they're looking for is frontcourt help.

Yes, Wade would be the full-time point guard, and Martin would be amazing beside him.  Again, Miami could pursue big men in free agency.

San Antonio trades: Manu Ginobili, Kurt Thomas, Bruce Bowen, Fabrico Oberto, George Hill ($24,491,390)

Sacramento trades: Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

So the kings want to suck and get a good draft pick and getting an expensive yet injury prone warrior like Manu helps them do that?  And San Antonio relishes their flexibility more than any other team in the NBA, something tells me they dont like all these long term deals... especially Benos

So, you're arguing that Manu is too good to play for Sacramento, but Ray Allen isn't?  I'm not buying it.

I mean, face facts:  the Celtics just aren't in as good of a position as other teams to land Martin if the Kings were interested in a bizarre salary dump like this.

Of course, the reality of the situation is that the Kings won't trade Martin, because they haven't completely lost their minds.  They'll move Nocioni, and perhaps Udrih and/or Garcia, and that will be the end of it.

[paintitgreen]

I will say, I think it'll be extremely hard for Sacramento to move Udrih without including a really good player like Martin. I just think it's gonna take a lot more talent than we can offer (unless Rondo is offered, which I say no to) right now. Nocioni I agree can be moved, same with Garcia. Both are just overpaid but are at least competent. Udrih, maybe they can move him if he starts the year really well.

[BCelts]

EDIT:  It's funny that BCelts and I were so much on the same wave length; we even came up with three of the four same teams.

I freely admit I "borrowed" the Cleveland idea from paintitgreen.  The San Antonio idea was also well done.

[BCelts]

Cleveland trades: Ben Wallace, Sasha Pavlovic, Delonte West, J.J. Hickson ($24,433,450 salaries; $21.18 million guaranteed)

Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

So cleveland's starting five is Mo Williams, Kevin Martin, Lebron James, Varejao and Z... ummm that's a lot of shooters my friends.  The knock on Martin is his poor passing, so this deal wouldnt make a ton of sense for cleveland.  But more than that, the Cavs are looking for size this offseason, not two guards and small forward... just doesnt seem like something they would do.

I actually think this would be nice for Cleveland.  Remember that Martin is like 6' 8" and plays the 2.  This becomes a really hard team to guard with LeBron at the 3 and Martin at the 2.  Also, both guards can shoot and will get their looks if LeBron is double teamed.  The size alone is daunting, and the shooting supporting LeBron is deadly.  However, I agree that the front-line, especially Z and whats behind him, becomes really thin.

[Roy Hobbs]

Cleveland trades: Ben Wallace, Sasha Pavlovic, Delonte West, J.J. Hickson ($24,433,450 salaries; $21.18 million guaranteed)

Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

So cleveland's starting five is Mo Williams, Kevin Martin, Lebron James, Varejao and Z... ummm that's a lot of shooters my friends.  The knock on Martin is his poor passing, so this deal wouldnt make a ton of sense for cleveland.  But more than that, the Cavs are looking for size this offseason, not two guards and small forward... just doesnt seem like something they would do.

I actually think this would be nice for Cleveland.  Remember that Martin is like 6' 8" and plays the 2.  This becomes a really hard team to guard with LeBron at the 3 and Martin at the 2.  Also, both guards can shoot and will get their looks if LeBron is double teamed.  The size alone is daunting, and the shooting supporting LeBron is deadly.  However, I agree that the front-line, especially Z and whats behind him, becomes really thin.

I don't think it becomes any thinner than if Wallace retires.  They might marginally miss Hickson, but he didn't play much. Nocioni can play the 4 in smaller lineups, and of course they'd still be able to potentially bring back Joe Smith, while also pursuing Rasheed, McDyess, et. al.

[BCelts]

Of course, the reality of the situation is that the Kings won't trade Martin, because they haven't completely lost their minds.  They'll move Nocioni, and perhaps Udrih and/or Garcia, and that will be the end of it.

Agreed.  More likely, the kings will trade Nocioni to a competitior (for an expiring contract) who will swallow his contract for the help and toughness he can provide off the bench.  Then they will trade Udrih and Garcia and their draft pick for another expiring contract somewhere from a team that doesn't mind paying money to "buy" the pick by then buying Udrih and Garcia out.

Point is, they can get tehir goals accomplished without trading Martin so, as you put earlier in this thread, it would be silly for them to do so.

[BCelts]

I don't think it becomes any thinner than if Wallace retires.  They might marginally miss Hickson, but he didn't play much. Nocioni can play the 4 in smaller lineups, and of course they'd still be able to potentially bring back Joe Smith, while also pursuing Rasheed, McDyess, et. al.

You are right that this trade does not really harm their front line that much.  However, I thought that Z showed his age (and/or inherent lack of speed) against Orlando.  A large priority for Clevelend should be addressing what their front line is missing - frontline players with some athleticism and defensive ability (Andy is OK, but can't guard a 5). 

Orlando is not going away anytime soon and Cleveland needs an answer.  I thought that Cleveland's lack of versitility and talent really hurt them in the Orlando series (and showed how good Perk actually is).  If they make this trade then they have to find a way to address their front line needs also.  Sheed solves the problem, as does LeBron playing more 4.  Not a fan of Nocioni at the 4, but LeBron can do it.

[ToppersBsktball10]

Why would they do this?

[nickagneta]

I had written a long explanation why the four teams that were mentioned were every good as or better than Boston, then the house lost power and bye bye post. Here it is in crib notes form:

Cleveland - they don't do it as it makes their salary over $70 for the next year and maybe beyond without any bigs whatsoever that can make a difference. They need to trade assets for size. Wallace, West and Hickson for Shaq is a deal they would do, not this one.

Houston - criticize me for offering one talent in Ray for three of their players and yet you put together a package that makes the Kings significantly better in Lowry, Landry and T-Mac. Kings would want to shed salary and get worse right away, not better.

Miami - their first priority is to sign Wade. If they do, they don't need Martin, if they don't then trading O'Neal for that package makes sense. What makes more sense if they resign Wade is to let O'Neal expire and pursue Bosh. Either way, resigning Wade or trading O'Neal for this package wouldn't be happening this off season.

San Antonio - maybe the only suggestion that made sense but is getting five good players that expire for four that don't really going to make them worse that next year? I don't think so.



So I will admit that Boston isn't the only team, but they are the team that makes the most sense for both teams involved and not a ton of sense for one team and either some sense or no sense whatsoever for the other team, which is what all these suggestions are, IMHO. We can agree to disagree on that but I think the Kings objective would be to

1.) Shed as much long term contracts as possible
2.) Take back as little money and players as possible in return for those contracts to make room to play young players(Diogu, Hawes, Thompson, Greene and either Harden, Thabeet or Rubio) and develop them while making the team truly awful so that attendance slips and gives the Maloofs reason to petition the NBA to leave to Vegas. And this then accomplishes the Kings being, maybe at very least, a number 4 pick or higher the next year in the draft to nab Cole Aldrich, John Wall or Ed Davis while having a ton of money set aside to grab free agents.
3.) Make sure that any and all contracts you get are expiring immediately so that perhaps you can buy them out.
4.) If possible get young talent or picks but not at the expense of the top three objectives.


BTW, I hope I wasn't being insulting in my last post. After I just re-read it it sounded a bit...strong and I didn't mean to come off like that. So sorry if I did, I didn't mean it.

[Roy Hobbs]

Who can do all three of these things plus for one year give you a player that is still in Kevin Martin's caliber at the same position?

Houston - criticize me for offering one talent in Ray for three of their players and yet you put together a package that makes the Kings significantly better in Lowry, Landry and T-Mac. Kings would want to shed salary and get worse right away, not better.

We can agree to disagree on that but I think the Kings objective would be to . . .

2.) Take back as little money and players as possible. . . while making the team truly awful so that attendance slips and gives the Maloofs reason to petition the NBA to leave to Vegas. And this then accomplishes the Kings being, maybe at very least, a number 4 pick or higher the next year in the draft to nab Cole Aldrich, John Wall or Ed Davis while having a ton of money set aside to grab free agents.

I think this is called "moving the goal posts".

[guava_wrench]

I do not buy the idea that Sac wants their attendance to go down.

[nickagneta]

Who can do all three of these things plus for one year give you a player that is still in Kevin Martin's caliber at the same position?

Houston - criticize me for offering one talent in Ray for three of their players and yet you put together a package that makes the Kings significantly better in Lowry, Landry and T-Mac. Kings would want to shed salary and get worse right away, not better.

We can agree to disagree on that but I think the Kings objective would be to . . .

2.) Take back as little money and players as possible. . . while making the team truly awful so that attendance slips and gives the Maloofs reason to petition the NBA to leave to Vegas. And this then accomplishes the Kings being, maybe at very least, a number 4 pick or higher the next year in the draft to nab Cole Aldrich, John Wall or Ed Davis while having a ton of money set aside to grab free agents.

I think this is called "moving the goal posts".

Yeah, probably. I little. But my statements were being ripped apart on multiple fronts so I tried to defend them all at once.

As I said, I lost my whole, usual extremely wordy, explanation and part of that included why getting back a player of Martin's caliber was important but getting back a worse package was more important. Get back a player of Martin's caliber was important to appearance in marketing and perception in Sacramento while getting back a worse package was important because staying bad was even more important. Ray's quality had nothing to do with the team improving. It had to do with perception to the ever shrinking fan base in Sacramento.

I hope that might clear up what I was getting at.

[paintitgreen]

nick, I have to give you credit. I agree you've moved the goalposts a little but you have been getting a ton of pressure from me, Roy and BCelts (and some others, don't mean to leave anybody out - poor nick (and VP)) to back down. I know that at least I can admit I was swayed by some of your early arguments. My first post (which was eaten by the computer, so I feel your pain) completely dismissed the idea. As I kept writing and thinking about it, though, I realized that the idea of Sacramento doing this isn't inconceivable given financial realities facing the Kings and the bad contracts they gave out and acquired.

I just think you need to back off the idea that Boston is in by far the best position to make the trade if Sacramento threw it out there. Even if you don't admit other teams are in a better position, I just think the evidence (other potential trade offers, other teams' superior cap positions and similar goals) rather obviously points to the conclusion that the Celtics are in a position no better than that of Cleveland, Houston or San Antonio to make this trade if it was offered. And if young guys with potential start getting included in the packages, we have trouble.

But I do commend your relentlessness. It's not your fault... It's not your fault...

[nickagneta]

nick, I have to give you credit. I agree you've moved the goalposts a little but you have been getting a ton of pressure from me, Roy and BCelts (and some others, don't mean to leave anybody out - poor nick (and VP)) to back down. I know that at least I can admit I was swayed by some of your early arguments. My first post (which was eaten by the computer, so I feel your pain) completely dismissed the idea. As I kept writing and thinking about it, though, I realized that the idea of Sacramento doing this isn't inconceivable given financial realities facing the Kings and the bad contracts they gave out and acquired.

I just think you need to back off the idea that Boston is in by far the best position to make the trade if Sacramento threw it out there. Even if you don't admit other teams are in a better position, I just think the evidence (other potential trade offers, other teams' superior cap positions and similar goals) rather obviously points to the conclusion that the Celtics are in a position no better than that of Cleveland, Houston or San Antonio to make this trade if it was offered. And if young guys with potential start getting included in the packages, we have trouble.

But I do commend your relentlessness. It's not your fault... It's not your fault...

TP thanks paint. I have admitted that Boston isn't the only team that could do it and that some of the other packages are attractive if the goal is to be better right away. I just don't see that as a goal and I am going by what Seattle did in stripping down their club to nothing in order to move. If Sacramento is going to strip everything down and get as many young players playing as possible and have great cap flexibility and be horribly lousy next year and the year after, Boston is their best trading partner. Just MHO.


Sacramento doesn't want mediocre good talent like Hickson, Lowry, Landry, Chalmers or Hill. They want this year's top 4 pick and a top 3 the year after and the year after and they want to develop Thompson and Hawes and Diogu and Greene. And they want to move. Being the worst team in the league in a tiny market will get them to get Stern on the bandwagon to leave to Vegas.