Another Kevin Martin idea... and just another idea

[VPofCommonSense]

First of all, I had no idea Martin was 6'7 and shoots about 39% from 3 point range (with probably the best defender from the other team guarding him), holy crap - this guy is a stud!

That's besides the point though, I know he's a great player, that's why the celtics would be willing to nearly commit cap suicide to get him.  Let's make no bones about it either, almost 14 million a year for udrih and nocioni is cap suicide.  If they're in trouble (and I think they are) they have to shed contracts.  Having $30 million in cap space going into 2010 free agency would be absolutely enormous.  Even if they don't spend it on one of the top tier guys they can have their pick of the litter with second tier guys.

And anyone who thinks they'll be able to unload those two bad contracts without giving up someone good is out of their mind.  Nocioni's 11pts and 4ish rebs a game for 8 mil a year is awful, and beno's contract is far worse.  They're stuck with those guys.

I think the deal could happen, and I think it we maybe look to unload Peirce's contract next offseason if it inhibits our resigning of Rondo and Perk.

[BCelts]

But there aren't any other teams with $38 million of expiring contracts, that can take on more money than they trade away and can take on long term money.

Who else has expiring deals bigger than Ray? Miami, Phoenix, Houston. Which of those teams can deliver more money in the deal, a player as desirable as Ray, and can take on more money.

Ray + $2 million could conceivably land Martin, Udrih, and Nocioni. The Kings save close to $3 million in salary because the salaries trade are less than 125% over Ray's contract, they get $2 million in cash right away, and they unload over $74 million in guaranteed money to be paid out. Can Houston, Miami, or Phoenix do any of those things? I know for a fact that Phoenix can't and that Houston and Miami probably won't.

And if the Kings are truly desperate to dump money we could include $5 million in expiring contracts to them in the names of Tony Allen and Scal and include Francisco Garcia, another long term choker on there books into the trade.

I don't agree that we are in the best position to offer expiring deals for Martin and debris from Sac-to.  Looking at Hoops Hype, and without taking the time to grid it all out, here is what I see.

In 2010 the expiring Celtics include Ray, Scal, House, TA, and perhaps Pruitt = ~30M
IN 2010 the expiring Bulls include B Miller, Jerome James, T. Thomas = ~$25 M
In 2010 the expiring Knicks include Hughes, Mobley, Q, Duhon = ~ 38 M
In 2010 the expiring NO include Daniels, Butler, and Brown ~ 12M

But these other teams also have other assets to include in these deals.  For example, in a trade for Martin, Udrih, and Nocioni (about $23M), the above teams can offer:

Celtics = Ray, Scal, TA (all expiring) and a weak draft pick
Bulls = B Miller (expiring), J James (exp), Salmons, and better draft picks than the Celtics
Knicks = Hughes (exp), Duhon(exp), (Lee or Nate-Rob), plus a better draft pick than the Celtics
NO = Daniels (exp), Butler (exp), Chandler plus a better draft pick than the Celtics

Look, I didn't check these in trade checker - they are close by eyeballing but may take a throw-in here or there.  All I am trying to point out is that I think each of the other teams above can offer more for Martin, and I think that each of these teams would pull the trigger.  In each case, the teams are offering an expiring contract, a expiring not-very-good player, and a young player plus a draft pick.  In each case, the other teams are offering a better young player and a better draft pick, which is what the Kings would key on in a trade.

Just because other teams have bigger contracts to unload doesn't mean that that benefits Sacramento. What they are getting rid of they need to replace. They don't need Jermaine or Shaquille O'Neal, they have Hawes, a cheap big guy. But if they dump long term contracts at the 1, 2, and 3 positions they will need players to fill those areas. Boston can fill those needs and take on extra money and shell out money better than anyone.

In the last paragraph above, you discuss looking to what the team needs to replace.  If Sac-to decides to trade Martin, they really won't care who the player with the expiring contract is that replaces Martin.  Instead, they are rebuilding for the future.  For example, having Shaq on the Sac-to Queens for one year as a trade for Martin and a salary dump is certainly plausable; Sac-to does not need to take a 2 guard in return if they are acquiring the player as an expiring contract.  Instead, teams in these positions typically look to the expriing contract, plus a young player who can play, plus a valuable pick.  Here, we have the contracts but not really the other two assets.

[Roy Hobbs]

And anyone who thinks they'll be able to unload those two bad contracts without giving up someone good is out of their mind.  Nocioni's 11pts and 4ish rebs a game for 8 mil a year is awful, and beno's contract is far worse.  They're stuck with those guys.

We'll see.  We almost traded for Nocioni last season, and I wouldn't be shocked to see the team pursue a similar deal again this year.  As for Udrih, he had a mediocre year last year, and is overpaid.  However, four years, $27 million isn't necessarily cap suicide for a starting-caliber point guard.  It wouldn't shock me at all if some team picks him up.  Certainly, if Kevin Martin was the sweetener, teams would be falling all over themselves to take back Udrih.

[VPofCommonSense]

"

In 2010 the expiring Celtics include Ray, Scal, House, TA, and perhaps Pruitt = ~30M
IN 2010 the expiring Bulls include B Miller, Jerome James, T. Thomas = ~$25 M
In 2010 the expiring Knicks include Hughes, Mobley, Q, Duhon = ~ 38 M
In 2010 the expiring NO include Daniels, Butler, and Brown ~ 12M

But these other teams also have other assets to include in these deals.  For example, in a trade for Martin, Udrih, and Nocioni (about $23M), the above teams can offer:

Celtics = Ray, Scal, TA (all expiring) and a weak draft pick
Bulls = B Miller (expiring), J James (exp), Salmons, and better draft picks than the Celtics
Knicks = Hughes (exp), Duhon(exp), (Lee or Nate-Rob), plus a better draft pick than the Celtics
NO = Daniels (exp), Butler (exp), Chandler plus a better draft pick than the Celtic

Alright, this more or less proves my point that the celtics are the best option for the kings;

Bulls: The bulls are not going to RETRADE for nocioni, he has a bad contract that they wanted to trade anyway.  besides, the bulls like salmons and miller, they both helped them in that playoff run.  Salmons is like a cheaper, poormans version of kevin martin and thats all they really need off the bench.  The bulls dont make this deal.

Knicks:  They're trying to clear cap room for 2010, and there is no way that David lee agrees to a sign and trade with this team.  The Knicks don't make this trade

Hornets: $12 mil isnt a salary dump, its a salary p---.  There is no way the Kings trade their best player to aquire chandler (injury burning red flags) and a crappy first round pick when you're dumping a paltry 12 million.  The Kings don't make this deal.

So the celts are really the best team to deal with if this is a salary dump... which it would be.  

Thats the reason we trade for Kevin Martin as opposed to a lot of these deals.  The only way that I trade Ray Allen is for a great young talent because, otherwise, we should just hold onto him so we can resign him on the cheap when his deal expires then go after one of the top tier FA's in 2010.

[paintitgreen]

Alright, this more or less proves my point that the celtics are the best option for the kings;

Bulls: The bulls are not going to RETRADE for nocioni, he has a bad contract that they wanted to trade anyway.  besides, the bulls like salmons and miller, they both helped them in that playoff run.  Salmons is like a cheaper, poormans version of kevin martin and thats all they really need off the bench.  The bulls dont make this deal.

Knicks:  They're trying to clear cap room for 2010, and there is no way that David lee agrees to a sign and trade with this team.  The Knicks don't make this trade

Hornets: $12 mil isnt a salary dump, its a salary ****.  There is no way the Kings trade their best player to aquire chandler (injury burning red flags) and a crappy first round pick when you're dumping a paltry 12 million.  The Kings don't make this deal.

So the celts are really the best team to deal with if this is a salary dump... which it would be.  

Thats the reason we trade for Kevin Martin as opposed to a lot of these deals.  The only way that I trade Ray Allen is for a great young talent because, otherwise, we should just hold onto him so we can resign him on the cheap when his deal expires then go after one of the top tier FA's in 2010.

What? I actually agree that it might eventually make sense for the Kings to do this deal. It would be unprecedented, as Roy pointed out, but these are unprecedented economic times and the Kings are right at the bottom of it. It could happen - giving up a young potential star like Martin just to dump bad contracts and get maybe some low level prospects in return. 

That said, the continued insistence that Boston is the best landing spot is a little green-tinted.

The Bulls wouldn't be just trading back for Nocioni - they're trading back for a 6'7" 26 year old who puts in 25 points a night and is locked up for 4 more years for $46 million. They're not doing this for a bench player (Salmons). They're doing this for a star to go next to Rose for the next 7-8 years. The Bulls would ABSOLUTELY make that deal.

With the Knicks, Lee will go wherever he's paid the most money so he won't veto the deal or anything. However, I do tend to agree that New York isn't going to tie their cap space up on Martin, though. They want something much better (although this may be a fallback plan if things aren't looking good for the summer of 2010; the Knicks can give Hughes, Richardson, Chandler and this year's pick for Martin and the pupu platter).

The Hornets again don't work I agree.

However, if the Kings were dumping Martin, the Celtics wouldn't be the only team in on it. Cleveland has plenty of expiring contracts. It might be that an offer of Wallace (exp.), Pavlovic (exp.), Delonte (reasonable $9 mil total through 2011), Hickson, Jackson and draft picks beats an offer of Ray (exp.), TA (exp.), Walker, Giddens and draft picks to take Martin, Nocioni, Udrih and Garcia (taking out Pavlovic or West and TA if Garcia isn't included).

Houston and Miami also have plenty of expiring deals. What's more, since those teams don't have to include an All Star and a starter on a championship team as their expiring contract (and while Ray is a much better player, he's still just an expiring contract to going-nowhere in the near future Sacramento), they can afford to include the best of their young players, while we can't reasonably include Rondo or Perk with Ray and give up two starters on a championship team.  (Plus, those other teams, which have far less money committed to 2010-11 than Boston does and don't have to resign a core young starter like Rondo at a substantial raise that season, can more easily afford to take on the burdens associated with these contracts).

I agree that because of unprecedented conditions, a trade this unprecedented could happen. I disagree though that if it were to happen, Boston would be in the drivers seat.

[BCelts]

Alright, this more or less proves my point that the celtics are the best option for the kings;

Bulls: The bulls are not going to RETRADE for nocioni, he has a bad contract that they wanted to trade anyway.  besides, the bulls like salmons and miller, they both helped them in that playoff run.  Salmons is like a cheaper, poormans version of kevin martin and thats all they really need off the bench.  The bulls dont make this deal.

Knicks:  They're trying to clear cap room for 2010, and there is no way that David lee agrees to a sign and trade with this team.  The Knicks don't make this trade

Hornets: $12 mil isnt a salary dump, its a salary ****.  There is no way the Kings trade their best player to aquire chandler (injury burning red flags) and a crappy first round pick when you're dumping a paltry 12 million.  The Kings don't make this deal.

So the celts are really the best team to deal with if this is a salary dump... which it would be.  

Thats the reason we trade for Kevin Martin as opposed to a lot of these deals.  The only way that I trade Ray Allen is for a great young talent because, otherwise, we should just hold onto him so we can resign him on the cheap when his deal expires then go after one of the top tier FA's in 2010.

Well, I guess we can disagree on a few points here.  As Hobbs stated first (regarding Udrih), I think the Bulls would swallow Nocioni what they had to to get Martin, including Nocioni's contract and a buyout of Miller.  I agree that the Knicks are trying to clear cap room and probably will hold out for the King LeBron dream.  I think the Sac-to deal could also include a third team to take Chandler for an expiring contract, making the deal still better than the Celtics, unless the Kings are high on TA.

The point here is that Ray is not an asset to the Kings as a player in a deal for Martin.  If the Kings deal for Martin, they want expiring contracts, young talent, and draft picks.  Like a few teams (also including the Bobcats and Memphis) we can offer to take their bad contracts, but we cannot offer young players that have solid talent or good draft picks.  Thats why if Kevin Martin goes on the block I expect we will be outclassed.  Sure, I'd love to trade Ray for Kevin Martin in the above deal, but I just don't think we can present the best offer.

[nickagneta]

"

In 2010 the expiring Celtics include Ray, Scal, House, TA, and perhaps Pruitt = ~30M
IN 2010 the expiring Bulls include B Miller, Jerome James, T. Thomas = ~$25 M
In 2010 the expiring Knicks include Hughes, Mobley, Q, Duhon = ~ 38 M
In 2010 the expiring NO include Daniels, Butler, and Brown ~ 12M

But these other teams also have other assets to include in these deals.  For example, in a trade for Martin, Udrih, and Nocioni (about $23M), the above teams can offer:

Celtics = Ray, Scal, TA (all expiring) and a weak draft pick
Bulls = B Miller (expiring), J James (exp), Salmons, and better draft picks than the Celtics
Knicks = Hughes (exp), Duhon(exp), (Lee or Nate-Rob), plus a better draft pick than the Celtics
NO = Daniels (exp), Butler (exp), Chandler plus a better draft pick than the Celtic

Alright, this more or less proves my point that the celtics are the best option for the kings;

Bulls: The bulls are not going to RETRADE for nocioni, he has a bad contract that they wanted to trade anyway.  besides, the bulls like salmons and miller, they both helped them in that playoff run.  Salmons is like a cheaper, poormans version of kevin martin and thats all they really need off the bench.  The bulls dont make this deal.

Knicks:  They're trying to clear cap room for 2010, and there is no way that David lee agrees to a sign and trade with this team.  The Knicks don't make this trade

Hornets: $12 mil isnt a salary dump, its a salary ****.  There is no way the Kings trade their best player to aquire chandler (injury burning red flags) and a crappy first round pick when you're dumping a paltry 12 million.  The Kings don't make this deal.

So the celts are really the best team to deal with if this is a salary dump... which it would be.  

Thats the reason we trade for Kevin Martin as opposed to a lot of these deals.  The only way that I trade Ray Allen is for a great young talent because, otherwise, we should just hold onto him so we can resign him on the cheap when his deal expires then go after one of the top tier FA's in 2010.

TP4U for .....umm...Common Sense!!! That works.

Also, what BC fails to realize is that the Celtics can take on long contracts and more salary. They can trade Ray Allen and take back almost $5 million more in salary because the trade has to be within 125% of each value. So the Kings could dump $25 million in salary but take on only $20. That's a $5 million savings in year one. Who else can do that?

Second, the C's can not only take on the extra salary, they can include cash in the deal for current Kings' operating capital. Who can both those things?

Third, they can adsorb all those long contracts and are willing to do so. Who can do all three of these things plus for one year give you a player that is still in Kevin Martin's caliber at the same position?

No one.

Of course Chicago, and New York aren't going to do those deals. NY is trying desperately to dump Curry so they can add LeBron and another superstar in 2010. They are not a realistic trading partner. Chicago isn't trading Miller. Phoenix and NO are in their own financial trouble and aren't going to get rid of their expiring contracts to suck up long term contracts. Miami still needs to guarantee they can tie up Wade before trading away an albatross like Jermaine O'Neal to take on all sorts of salary.

Simply put. Boston has the best player with the best expiring huge contract and have the best financial ability to suck up huge contracts and take on extra salary.

In a strict salary dump and contract dump, there is not a single team out there that can offer a team the package Boston can. Period.

[RAcker]

I don't think you can sell this trade to your fans if you're the Kings. They have to have some hope.

They could maybe flip Ray to the Clippers for B.Diddy, and the #1.

Oh, the thought makes me hurt for Ray.

[paintitgreen]

Also, what BC fails to realize is that the Celtics can take on long contracts and more salary. They can trade Ray Allen and take back almost $5 million more in salary because the trade has to be within 125% of each value. So the Kings could dump $25 million in salary but take on only $20. That's a $5 million savings in year one. Who else can do that?

Second, the C's can not only take on the extra salary, they can include cash in the deal for current Kings' operating capital. Who can both those things?

As noted, at least five other teams (Cle, Mia, Hou, NY, Chi).

Third, they can adsorb all those long contracts and are willing to do so. Who can do all three of these things plus for one year give you a player that is still in Kevin Martin's caliber at the same position?

No one.

You keep ignoring this fact: why does Sacramento care if you fill Kevin Martin's position right now? They're going nowhere anyway. It doesn't matter whether it's Ray Allen coming in for one season or Ben Wallace retiring and Sasha Pavlovic coming in for one season. In fact, if Wallace takes a buyout to retire (something Ray may be less likely to do as he may want to protect Bird rights), there could be an additional $2-3 million in savings for Sacramento.

And let me throw a new hat in the ring - San Antonio. They have Manu (about $10.7 mil) expiring this year along with guys like Bowen, Kurt Thomas, Oberto, Roger Mason and Matt Bonner.  They can easily match salary, give as productive a player and take on the money. In fact, as with Miami, Cleveland and Houston, they can absorb the money more easily than Boston could, since they have only $32 million in salary guaranteed for next season.

Of course Chicago, and New York aren't going to do those deals. NY is trying desperately to dump Curry so they can add LeBron and another superstar in 2010. They are not a realistic trading partner. Chicago isn't trading Miller. Phoenix and NO are in their own financial trouble and aren't going to get rid of their expiring contracts to suck up long term contracts. Miami still needs to guarantee they can tie up Wade before trading away an albatross like Jermaine O'Neal to take on all sorts of salary.

Simply put. Boston has the best player with the best expiring huge contract and have the best financial ability to suck up huge contracts and take on extra salary.

In a strict salary dump and contract dump, there is not a single team out there that can offer a team the package Boston can. Period.

Yes, there are. There are several. We could step into this contest, but we are from the only team that could, and we don't have as much flexibility as a lot of our likely competitors for Martin.

[BCelts]

Also, what BC fails to realize is that the Celtics can take on long contracts and more salary. They can trade Ray Allen and take back almost $5 million more in salary because the trade has to be within 125% of each value. So the Kings could dump $25 million in salary but take on only $20. That's a $5 million savings in year one. Who else can do that?

Your question is "who else can do that"?  The answer is any other team in the league.  The salary cap rules operate the same for all teams.  If the Cavs want to trade expiring contracts of Big Ben, Ilgauskis, D. West, and Hickson (~$30M) for Martin, Nocioni, Udrih, and Hawes (~$25M), they can do that also.  I though about starting all of these sentences with the same "fails to realize" invective, but then decided against that sort of behavior.

Second, the C's can not only take on the extra salary, they can include cash in the deal for current Kings' operating capital. Who can both those things?

Again, the answer is any other team in the league.  I expect you are really asking who else WILL do that, and the Cavs fit the bill for one.  They are desperate to add talent and not lose James, who makes them a boat load of money. 

Hey, the simple point here is that the expiring contracts necessary to give Sac-to the cap relief they need are not limited to Boston.  We have a good one, true, and we can get into the game, but there would be other bidders out there.  Sac-to will take a package with the best young talent, the best draft picks, and the most salary relief.  While we can offer the same salary relief as the other teams (perhaps up to $3M more if other teams are more financially limited, I agree), we also have fewer desirable young players or good draft picks to add to the mix.  It makes it hard for us to have the best offer.  Any view that we are the best trading partner is green colored glasses.

Third, they can adsorb all those long contracts and are willing to do so. Who can do all three of these things plus for one year give you a player that is still in Kevin Martin's caliber at the same position?

No one.

Here may be where we actually have a disagrement.  If the Kings are trading Martin, I don't think they care one whit if the one-year talent they get back is equal.  I don't think Ray the player adds much to this deal at all.  In fact, it may hurt the deal as it would hurt the Kings chances of getting the top pick the following year.  Wouldn't the Kings be better off buying Ray out, sucking worse, and getting a better pick?  Why do they care if they are getting "for one year . . . a player that is still in Kevin Martin's caliber at the same position?"

Of course Chicago, and New York aren't going to do those deals. NY is trying desperately to dump Curry so they can add LeBron and another superstar in 2010. They are not a realistic trading partner. Chicago isn't trading Miller. Phoenix and NO are in their own financial trouble and aren't going to get rid of their expiring contracts to suck up long term contracts. Miami still needs to guarantee they can tie up Wade before trading away an albatross like Jermaine O'Neal to take on all sorts of salary.

Chicago isn't trading Miller?  Really?  To get Martin?  OK, here we also disagree.  Miami not willing to take on long term contracts to build a winning team?  Not the Micky Arzen I've seen.  True that NO probably does not take on long term deals (despite the Posey deal last year), but Sarver has always seemed content with a team just below the luxury tax threshold.  I have not seen plans to cut back drastically in Phoenix.

Simply put. Boston has the best player with the best expiring huge contract and have the best financial ability to suck up huge contracts and take on extra salary.

In a strict salary dump and contract dump, there is not a single team out there that can offer a team the package Boston can. Period.

And, again, the best player part of the deal doesn't really matter to Sac-to.  The best expiring contract is not true either because all expiring contracts are equal only to their amounts, and many teams have expiring contract.  I agree that in a strict salary dump and contract dump, Boston may have the edge, but if young players and draft picks are also part of the King's interests - and we have to assume they are - then Boston is only one of many teams that can put together an attractive package and by no means the clear leader. 

[Roy Hobbs]

In a strict salary dump and contract dump, there is not a single team out there that can offer a team the package Boston can. Period.

Come on, nick. 

===============================================================

Cleveland trades: Ben Wallace, Sasha Pavlovic, Delonte West, J.J. Hickson ($24,433,450 salaries; $21.18 million guaranteed)

Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

That trade saves Sacramento almost $9 million immediately, plus the next year Wallace, Pavlovic, West, and Hickson could come off the books.  (Delonte would be paid $500k if he was cut; I doubt they'd dump Hickson, but they could).

Does our trade offer make more sense than that?  I don't think so.  I know you through in the caveat about Ray being almost at Martin's level, but why would the Kings care?  They'd want to lose, and lose big; there's no use keeping a vet around who may help you win games.  Delonte and Hickson are players Sacramento could build with, if they so chose.

===============================================================

Or what about:

Houston trades:  Tmac, Carl Landry ($25,483,124)

Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

Sacramento gets a former superstar and a young player with upside, both of whom are expiring.  Lowry could be substituted for Landry if the Kings liked that better.

===============================================================

Miami trades: Jermaine O'Neal, Mario Chalmers ($23,772,000)

Sacramento trades: Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

Sacramento saves $5.5 million immediately, and gets a cost-controlled starting point guard.

===============================================================

San Antonio trades: Manu Ginobili, Kurt Thomas, Bruce Bowen, Fabrico Oberto, George Hill ($24,491,390)

Sacramento trades: Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

Bowen and Oberto are only partially guaranteed; I'm not sure how much, but this trade saves Sacramento at least $4.5 million, and probably closer to $7.5 million or more.  It also brings them back a star in Ginobili, and a good young player in Hill.

===============================================================

Those are four trades that, in my opinion, are better than the Boston trade.

EDIT:  It's funny that BCelts and I were so much on the same wave length; we even came up with three of the four same teams.

[paintitgreen]

EDIT:  It's funny that BCelts and I were so much on the same wave length; we even came up with three of the four same teams.

Not hard or particularly surprising when I proposed essentially the same trades (in the case of the Cleveland one, the EXACT same trade) 3 or 4 posts earlier. BURN!

That said, the continued insistence that Boston is the best landing spot is a little green-tinted.

The Bulls wouldn't be just trading back for Nocioni - they're trading back for a 6'7" 26 year old who puts in 25 points a night and is locked up for 4 more years for $46 million. They're not doing this for a bench player (Salmons). They're doing this for a star to go next to Rose for the next 7-8 years. The Bulls would ABSOLUTELY make that deal.

However, if the Kings were dumping Martin, the Celtics wouldn't be the only team in on it. Cleveland has plenty of expiring contracts. It might be that an offer of Wallace (exp.), Pavlovic (exp.), Delonte (reasonable $9 mil total through 2011), Hickson, Jackson and draft picks beats an offer of Ray (exp.), TA (exp.), Walker, Giddens and draft picks to take Martin, Nocioni, Udrih and Garcia (taking out Pavlovic or West and TA if Garcia isn't included).

Houston and Miami also have plenty of expiring deals. What's more, since those teams don't have to include an All Star and a starter on a championship team as their expiring contract (and while Ray is a much better player, he's still just an expiring contract to going-nowhere in the near future Sacramento), they can afford to include the best of their young players, while we can't reasonably include Rondo or Perk with Ray and give up two starters on a championship team.  (Plus, those other teams, which have far less money committed to 2010-11 than Boston does and don't have to resign a core young starter like Rondo at a substantial raise that season, can more easily afford to take on the burdens associated with these contracts).

I agree that because of unprecedented conditions, a trade this unprecedented could happen. I disagree though that if it were to happen, Boston would be in the drivers seat.

As noted, at least five other teams (Cle, Mia, Hou, NY, Chi).

You keep ignoring this fact: why does Sacramento care if you fill Kevin Martin's position right now? They're going nowhere anyway. It doesn't matter whether it's Ray Allen coming in for one season or Ben Wallace retiring and Sasha Pavlovic coming in for one season. In fact, if Wallace takes a buyout to retire (something Ray may be less likely to do as he may want to protect Bird rights), there could be an additional $2-3 million in savings for Sacramento.

And let me throw a new hat in the ring - San Antonio. They have Manu (about $10.7 mil) expiring this year along with guys like Bowen, Kurt Thomas, Oberto, Roger Mason and Matt Bonner.  They can easily match salary, give as productive a player and take on the money. In fact, as with Miami, Cleveland and Houston, they can absorb the money more easily than Boston could, since they have only $32 million in salary guaranteed for next season.

[Roy Hobbs]

EDIT:  It's funny that BCelts and I were so much on the same wave length; we even came up with three of the four same teams.

Not hard or particularly surprising when I proposed essentially the same trades (in the case of the Cleveland one, the EXACT same trade) 3 or 4 posts earlier. BURN!

As noted, at least five other teams (Cle, Mia, Hou, NY, Chi).

You keep ignoring this fact: why does Sacramento care if you fill Kevin Martin's position right now? They're going nowhere anyway. It doesn't matter whether it's Ray Allen coming in for one season or Ben Wallace retiring and Sasha Pavlovic coming in for one season. In fact, if Wallace takes a buyout to retire (something Ray may be less likely to do as he may want to protect Bird rights), there could be an additional $2-3 million in savings for Sacramento.

And let me throw a new hat in the ring - San Antonio. They have Manu (about $10.7 mil) expiring this year along with guys like Bowen, Kurt Thomas, Oberto, Roger Mason and Matt Bonner.  They can easily match salary, give as productive a player and take on the money. In fact, as with Miami, Cleveland and Houston, they can absorb the money more easily than Boston could, since they have only $32 million in salary guaranteed for next season.

That said, the continued insistence that Boston is the best landing spot is a little green-tinted.

The Bulls wouldn't be just trading back for Nocioni - they're trading back for a 6'7" 26 year old who puts in 25 points a night and is locked up for 4 more years for $46 million. They're not doing this for a bench player (Salmons). They're doing this for a star to go next to Rose for the next 7-8 years. The Bulls would ABSOLUTELY make that deal.

However, if the Kings were dumping Martin, the Celtics wouldn't be the only team in on it. Cleveland has plenty of expiring contracts. It might be that an offer of Wallace (exp.), Pavlovic (exp.), Delonte (reasonable $9 mil total through 2011), Hickson, Jackson and draft picks beats an offer of Ray (exp.), TA (exp.), Walker, Giddens and draft picks to take Martin, Nocioni, Udrih and Garcia (taking out Pavlovic or West and TA if Garcia isn't included).

Houston and Miami also have plenty of expiring deals. What's more, since those teams don't have to include an All Star and a starter on a championship team as their expiring contract (and while Ray is a much better player, he's still just an expiring contract to going-nowhere in the near future Sacramento), they can afford to include the best of their young players, while we can't reasonably include Rondo or Perk with Ray and give up two starters on a championship team.  (Plus, those other teams, which have far less money committed to 2010-11 than Boston does and don't have to resign a core young starter like Rondo at a substantial raise that season, can more easily afford to take on the burdens associated with these contracts).

I agree that because of unprecedented conditions, a trade this unprecedented could happen. I disagree though that if it were to happen, Boston would be in the drivers seat.

Haha.  Yeah, but you left out the part about Delonte only having $500k guaranteed the following season, and Pavlovic's deal only having $1.5 million guaranteed this season. 

[paintitgreen]

Really? Wow, that blows us out of the water as far as financial savings go. Any idea when those guarantee decisions have to be made?

[VPofCommonSense]

Cleveland trades: Ben Wallace, Sasha Pavlovic, Delonte West, J.J. Hickson ($24,433,450 salaries; $21.18 million guaranteed)

Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

So cleveland's starting five is Mo Williams, Kevin Martin, Lebron James, Varejao and Z... ummm that's a lot of shooters my friends.  The knock on Martin is his poor passing, so this deal wouldnt make a ton of sense for cleveland.  But more than that, the Cavs are looking for size this offseason, not two guards and small forward... just doesnt seem like something they would do.

Houston trades:  Tmac, Carl Landry ($25,483,124)

Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

This one actually makes lot of sense, and is comparable to the celts deal.  Though, I think trading Landry would leave this team very thin on the front line.  And Tmac's buy out is 4 million more than Ray Allens, which is a lot of money when you're looking at a straight salary dump.  But you're right, lowry and landry are significantly better than what the celtics can offer.

Miami trades: Jermaine O'Neal, Mario Chalmers ($23,772,000)

Sacramento trades: Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

This one is just OK.  Would the Heat just move Wade over to point guard?  I mean I think this is another team thats looking for size, remember these teams are getting 29 million worth of guards and a small forward.  So why does Miami invest that much money in a backcourt that's already pretty great when what they're looking for is frontcourt help.

San Antonio trades: Manu Ginobili, Kurt Thomas, Bruce Bowen, Fabrico Oberto, George Hill ($24,491,390)

Sacramento trades: Sacramento trades:  Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Kevin Martin ($29,011,970)

So the kings want to suck and get a good draft pick and getting an expensive yet injury prone warrior like Manu helps them do that?  And San Antonio relishes their flexibility more than any other team in the NBA, something tells me they dont like all these long term deals... especially Benos