Another Kevin Martin idea... and just another idea

[Who]

I just wish the Kings had a crappy GM instead of Petrie, he's pretty good and probably would veto this.

Geoff Petrie doesn't have a good understanding of how the cap works ... he won't understand the upside of this trade.

That's why those bad contracts are there in the first place.

[BCelts]

A really, really good trade for the c's (although I'd be incredibly sad to see Ray go via a trade, but that's business I guess). I think the Kings would find a better option than this however.

I think for it to work from the King's side, you have to include at least one Celtics draft pick.  Having said that, this is not a bad way to continue the current team.  It requires a decision that the Celtics are going to be horrible after the GPA era as the extra long-term salaries you are taking on clear out, but that is a valid business decision to make, even if it is not one I agree with.

[BCelts]

Can you think of an example of one trade, ever, where a team gave up a 26 year old, 25 ppg scorer signed long-term to a reasonable deal without getting a star-caliber player in return?

Also, I think they could clear salary in other ways.  Trade Nocioni to Boston for Scal and Tony.  Trade Udrih and the #4 to OKC or Portland (or any other team with enough cap space to fit his deal). 

What you don't do, under any circumstances, is trade your budding superstar.

While I agree that a team building for the future should not trade a Kevin Martin, lets not forget that these trades happen sometimes without a superstar in return.  They are generally called mistakes later down the road.  Pau Gasol is one.  Grant Hill for Wallace (before he was Big Ben) and Atkins was another.  Richard Jefferson for the Chairman was another.  Brand for Chandler and Skinner is another.  The Rasheed Wallace to Detroit trade probably falls here although he may not have been in the prime of his career.  The Ron Artest out of Chicago trade for a not-so-good-at-this-point Jalen Rose might fit (although perhaps not because Artest was not a scorer yet and this trade was brawl motivated (like how Kermit Washington was forced to be traded)).  The Caron Butler trade.  T-Mac for Steve Francis?

Anyway, I think that there are cases where a 20 ppg scorer gets traded without getting a star caliber player in return under today's salary cap.  But your better point is that this is almost always a mistake.  Here it would be also.  The Kings have better options to clear salary cap space rather than trading the only great player on their roster.  They will naturally choose to elect those options first.  Indeed, they should consider trading draft picks plus bad contracts for expiring ones before trading Martin.  Martin is a known quantity and the draft picks are not.

[shiggins]

I don't think you can sell this trade to your fans if you're the Kings. They have to have some hope.

They could maybe flip Ray to the Clippers for B.Diddy, and the #1.

if thats possible, then the celts should just do that instead...

[nickagneta]

Roy makes a ton of sense about not trading the supertar who's young and signed to a reasonable long term contract, but I am not sure any of us realize just how bad the financial situation the Maloofs are in. The are in a tiny market with the prospect of having a fairly bad team for years to come. They have ust been told y the voters that they are't getting ay public money for a new arena. They have major holdings in Vegas that are hurting and their production company is hurting big time.

What's to say they don't unload as many long term deals as possible, getting rid of all long term money and move the team to Vegas. The NBA has already had an All-Star game there and I don't think the owners are going to be against a team there. The Maloofs in that case wouldn't necessarily NEED a young superstar right away since people will flock to see anybody that will be on the floor since this will be Vegas' first big time team. Celebrities working in LV will flock to games to be seen. The Maloofs would make huge gobs of cash there and it wouldn't matter that they had Martin or not.

I'm telling you, te Kings are going to be moving because Sacramento can't support them anymore and because there is ton of money to be made for any NBA team in Vegas. The Maloofs already own a hotel there. It just makes too much sense not to happen.

[Roy Hobbs]

While I agree that a team building for the future should not trade a Kevin Martin, lets not forget that these trades happen sometimes without a superstar in return.  They are generally called mistakes later down the road.

Remember, the criteria was 1) 26 year old player; 2) long-term, reasonable contract;  3) 25 ppg scorer' and 4) was not traded for a star-caliber player in return.  Star-caliber doesn't mean "superstar", it means a guy with star potential.  The trades you listed below don't meet all of those criteria, and in many cases, don't meet any.

Pau Gasol is one.[/quote]

Pau was asking to be traded, and the team did end up with some young players, including Marc Gasol.  He also had a near-max contract, for a player not necessarily performing at a max level.  This proposed trade isn't comparable in terms of the talent going back, nor are the contracts similar.

Grant Hill for Wallace (before he was Big Ben) and Atkins was another.

That was a sign-and-trade; Hill was leaving anyway, and Detroit did well to get Wallace out of it.

Richard Jefferson for the Chairman was another.

New Jersey got a lottery pick.

  Brand for Chandler and Skinner is another.

Brand was traded for the #2 pick in the draft (maybe it was #4, I can't remember.  Regardless, it was a guy the Bulls expected would be a stud).

The Rasheed Wallace to Detroit trade probably falls here although he may not have been in the prime of his career.

Rasheed was demanding his trade, and I believe his contract was up.  Certainly, he wasn't a 26 year old 25 ppg scorer signed to a reasonable deal.

The Ron Artest out of Chicago trade for a not-so-good-at-this-point Jalen Rose might fit (although perhaps not because Artest was not a scorer yet and this trade was brawl motivated (like how Kermit Washington was forced to be traded)).

I don't think this trade works at all.

The Caron Butler trade.

Kwame was the #1 pick in the draft, and Butler wasn't nearly as established as he is now at the time of the trade.

T-Mac for Steve Francis?

Both players were stars.

Anyway, I think that there are cases where a 20 ppg scorer gets traded without getting a star caliber player in return under today's salary cap.

I think you twisted the criteria a bit, as I noted above.  But you're right, very few of those trades worked out well.  We're in agreement that trading Martin would be against Sacramento's best interests.

[BCelts]

Roy makes a ton of sense about not trading the supertar who's young and signed to a reasonable long term contract, but I am not sure any of us realize just how bad the financial situation the Maloofs are in. The are in a tiny market with the prospect of having a fairly bad team for years to come. They have ust been told y the voters that they are't getting ay public money for a new arena. They have major holdings in Vegas that are hurting and their production company is hurting big time.

What's to say they don't unload as many long term deals as possible, getting rid of all long term money and move the team to Vegas. The NBA has already had an All-Star game there and I don't think the owners are going to be against a team there. The Maloofs in that case wouldn't necessarily NEED a young superstar right away since people will flock to see anybody that will be on the floor since this will be Vegas' first big time team. Celebrities working in LV will flock to games to be seen. The Maloofs would make huge gobs of cash there and it wouldn't matter that they had Martin or not.

I'm telling you, te Kings are going to be moving because Sacramento can't support them anymore and because there is ton of money to be made for any NBA team in Vegas. The Maloofs already own a hotel there. It just makes too much sense not to happen.

All could be true.  However, if the Kings decide to trade Martin and to cut salary to the bone, I suspect there are other teams with more to offer to address the Kings clearing space and getting young talent and draft picks in return.

[BCelts]

I think you twisted the criteria a bit, as I noted above.  But you're right, very few of those trades worked out well.  We're in agreement that trading Martin would be against Sacramento's best interests.

I admit that I twisted the criteria a bit.  The criteria was designed to prove a larger point, to which I think I stayed true.  To my reading, you had two points in your post - (1) that any martin trade was unreasonable without a star player in return, which shows that the proposed Celtics trade was unlikely and (2) Sac-to can hit their goals in other ways without giving away the farm. 

I think the first point is not exactly correct.  Sure, by your defined criteria, there are only a few trades that possibly work historically.  Probably not worth arguing whether the Gasol, Jefferson, and Brand trades (and perhaps the Iverson trade, although he is not 26 when traded) had "star caliber" in return.  The reason it is not worth arguing these minor differences is why you made your post - showing that Sac-to can get a lot more for Martin (to support point 2).  I agree.  Although I can envision a Martin trade without a star-caliber player in return - a trade where Sac-to dumps all bad contracts and gets many draft picks - that does not really matter.  What matters is that the proposed Celtics trade doesn't get there and the Celtics cannot offer more of what Sac-to needs.

Turning to your second point, that Sac-to can hit their goals in other ways without giving away the farm, we both agree there.

[scottdalot32]

Again, Kevin Martin is going no where... His former agent Jason Levien is now the Assistant GM and he's just not going to trade Kevin Martin away... They are going to build around him

[nickagneta]

Roy makes a ton of sense about not trading the supertar who's young and signed to a reasonable long term contract, but I am not sure any of us realize just how bad the financial situation the Maloofs are in. The are in a tiny market with the prospect of having a fairly bad team for years to come. They have ust been told y the voters that they are't getting ay public money for a new arena. They have major holdings in Vegas that are hurting and their production company is hurting big time.

What's to say they don't unload as many long term deals as possible, getting rid of all long term money and move the team to Vegas. The NBA has already had an All-Star game there and I don't think the owners are going to be against a team there. The Maloofs in that case wouldn't necessarily NEED a young superstar right away since people will flock to see anybody that will be on the floor since this will be Vegas' first big time team. Celebrities working in LV will flock to games to be seen. The Maloofs would make huge gobs of cash there and it wouldn't matter that they had Martin or not.

I'm telling you, te Kings are going to be moving because Sacramento can't support them anymore and because there is ton of money to be made for any NBA team in Vegas. The Maloofs already own a hotel there. It just makes too much sense not to happen.

All could be true.  However, if the Kings decide to trade Martin and to cut salary to the bone, I suspect there are other teams with more to offer to address the Kings clearing space and getting young talent and draft picks in return.

But there aren't any other teams with $38 million of expiring contracts, that can take on more money than they trade away and can take on long term money.

Who else has expiring deals bigger than Ray? Miami, Phoenix, Houston. Which of those teams can deliver more money in the deal, a player as desirable as Ray, and can take on more money.

Ray + $2 million could conceivably land Martin, Udrih, and Nocioni. The Kings save close to $3 million in salary because the salaries trade are less than 125% over Ray's contract, they get $2 million in cash right away, and they unload over $74 million in guaranteed money to be paid out. Can Houston, Miami, or Phoenix do any of those things? I know for a fact that Phoenix can't and that Houston and Miami probably won't.

And if the Kings are truly desperate to dump money we could include $5 million in expiring contracts to them in the names of Tony Allen and Scal and include Francisco Garcia, another long term choker on there books into the trade.

Just because other teams have bigger contracts to unload doesn't mean that that benefits Sacramento. What they are getting rid of they need to replace. They don't need Jermaine or Shaquille O'Neal, they have Hawes, a cheap big guy. But if they dump long term contracts at the 1, 2, and 3 positions they will need players to fill those areas. Boston can fill those needs and take on extra money and shell out money better than anyone.

[Roy Hobbs]

Roy makes a ton of sense about not trading the supertar who's young and signed to a reasonable long term contract, but I am not sure any of us realize just how bad the financial situation the Maloofs are in. The are in a tiny market with the prospect of having a fairly bad team for years to come. They have ust been told y the voters that they are't getting ay public money for a new arena. They have major holdings in Vegas that are hurting and their production company is hurting big time.

What's to say they don't unload as many long term deals as possible, getting rid of all long term money and move the team to Vegas. The NBA has already had an All-Star game there and I don't think the owners are going to be against a team there. The Maloofs in that case wouldn't necessarily NEED a young superstar right away since people will flock to see anybody that will be on the floor since this will be Vegas' first big time team. Celebrities working in LV will flock to games to be seen. The Maloofs would make huge gobs of cash there and it wouldn't matter that they had Martin or not.

I'm telling you, te Kings are going to be moving because Sacramento can't support them anymore and because there is ton of money to be made for any NBA team in Vegas. The Maloofs already own a hotel there. It just makes too much sense not to happen.

All could be true.  However, if the Kings decide to trade Martin and to cut salary to the bone, I suspect there are other teams with more to offer to address the Kings clearing space and getting young talent and draft picks in return.

But there aren't any other teams with $38 million of expiring contracts, that can take on more money than they trade away and can take on long term money.

Who else has expiring deals bigger than Ray? Miami, Phoenix, Houston. Which of those teams can deliver more money in the deal, a player as desirable as Ray, and can take on more money.

Ray + $2 million could conceivably land Martin, Udrih, and Nocioni. The Kings save close to $3 million in salary because the salaries trade are less than 125% over Ray's contract, they get $2 million in cash right away, and they unload over $74 million in guaranteed money to be paid out. Can Houston, Miami, or Phoenix do any of those things? I know for a fact that Phoenix can't and that Houston and Miami probably won't.

And if the Kings are truly desperate to dump money we could include $5 million in expiring contracts to them in the names of Tony Allen and Scal and include Francisco Garcia, another long term choker on there books into the trade.

Just because other teams have bigger contracts to unload doesn't mean that that benefits Sacramento. What they are getting rid of they need to replace. They don't need Jermaine or Shaquille O'Neal, they have Hawes, a cheap big guy. But if they dump long term contracts at the 1, 2, and 3 positions they will need players to fill those areas. Boston can fill those needs and take on extra money and shell out money better than anyone.

I haven't mapped it out, but how would all those long-term contracts affect us going forward with Rondo and Perk due for raises?  It might be worth it for Kevin Martin, but I'm curious what our future payroll would look like.

[xmuscularghandix]

Kevin Martin WILL NEVER leave Sac.

[nickagneta]

Roy makes a ton of sense about not trading the supertar who's young and signed to a reasonable long term contract, but I am not sure any of us realize just how bad the financial situation the Maloofs are in. The are in a tiny market with the prospect of having a fairly bad team for years to come. They have ust been told y the voters that they are't getting ay public money for a new arena. They have major holdings in Vegas that are hurting and their production company is hurting big time.

What's to say they don't unload as many long term deals as possible, getting rid of all long term money and move the team to Vegas. The NBA has already had an All-Star game there and I don't think the owners are going to be against a team there. The Maloofs in that case wouldn't necessarily NEED a young superstar right away since people will flock to see anybody that will be on the floor since this will be Vegas' first big time team. Celebrities working in LV will flock to games to be seen. The Maloofs would make huge gobs of cash there and it wouldn't matter that they had Martin or not.

I'm telling you, te Kings are going to be moving because Sacramento can't support them anymore and because there is ton of money to be made for any NBA team in Vegas. The Maloofs already own a hotel there. It just makes too much sense not to happen.

All could be true.  However, if the Kings decide to trade Martin and to cut salary to the bone, I suspect there are other teams with more to offer to address the Kings clearing space and getting young talent and draft picks in return.

But there aren't any other teams with $38 million of expiring contracts, that can take on more money than they trade away and can take on long term money.

Who else has expiring deals bigger than Ray? Miami, Phoenix, Houston. Which of those teams can deliver more money in the deal, a player as desirable as Ray, and can take on more money.

Ray + $2 million could conceivably land Martin, Udrih, and Nocioni. The Kings save close to $3 million in salary because the salaries trade are less than 125% over Ray's contract, they get $2 million in cash right away, and they unload over $74 million in guaranteed money to be paid out. Can Houston, Miami, or Phoenix do any of those things? I know for a fact that Phoenix can't and that Houston and Miami probably won't.

And if the Kings are truly desperate to dump money we could include $5 million in expiring contracts to them in the names of Tony Allen and Scal and include Francisco Garcia, another long term choker on there books into the trade.

Just because other teams have bigger contracts to unload doesn't mean that that benefits Sacramento. What they are getting rid of they need to replace. They don't need Jermaine or Shaquille O'Neal, they have Hawes, a cheap big guy. But if they dump long term contracts at the 1, 2, and 3 positions they will need players to fill those areas. Boston can fill those needs and take on extra money and shell out money better than anyone.

I haven't mapped it out, but how would all those long-term contracts affect us going forward with Rondo and Perk due for raises?  It might be worth it for Kevin Martin, but I'm curious what our future payroll would look like.

There's the rub.

In 2010-11 here's what the salary structure wouldlook like:

Rondo - $3 million = QO
KG - $18.8 million
Pierce - $21.5 milion
Perk - $4.9 million
Nocioni - $6.8 million
Martin - $10.5 million
Udrih - $6.4 million
2010 First rounder - $1 million

Total = $72.9 million but I think this core is definitely able to win another championship as Martin, Rondo, and Perk take over and Pierce and KG become complimentary type players to the younger stars.

Next off season before the 2010-11 season starts Perk can be extended giving him a bigger raise for 2011-12 but still keeping his 2010-11 salary where it was. Also, it is a gamble but giving Rondo the QO and hoping he takes it and then we can negotiate a contract that year. If Rondo shows next year that he is stating to bloo further and then the year thereafter shows growth towards a max type contract, the can gamble on the QO and offer him the max contract the year he is playing at the Q. It's a gamble but it might work in saving money for 2010-11 while pushing extension money for Perk and Rondo back one year when Pierce's contract expires.

Then in 2011-12

Rondo - $14.5 million
Perk - $10 million
KG - $21.2 million
Nocioni - $6.5 million
Udrih - $6.9 million
Martin - $11.5 million
2010 first rounder - $1.2 million
2011 first rounder - $1 million

Total = $73.8 million

Now basically that means allowing Pierce to expire and we are gambling on Rondo with the QO in 2010-11 still resigning a max contract after putting his payoff back one year. But if Rondo leaves the option is still then to promote Udrih to start and keeping Pierce at a reasonable price and adding another PG via the MLE that year.

Here's the thing though, with Martin, Perk, KG, Pierce, Rondo, Nocioni, and Udrih the team has a solid championship type core of seven players that extends the championship window at least one year and maybe two or more depending on how players develop. In 2010-11 we would have Rondo at 25 years old, Perk at 26 years old and Martin at 28 years old and possibly still under our control for many more years. They all could have multiple championship rings at that time and have a championship pedigree. The money problems wouldn't be problems because after several championships, possibly, over several years, with Wyc never going over $80 million for a payroll(not counting lux tax), he should have made tons of cash considering all the playoff games, the ticket price increases, the flood of apparel sold that has Celtics on it. Dynasty teams sell huge amounts of stuff and the worldwide exposure would be huge.

A deal like this keeps the Celtics salary structure rather stable of a long period of time while ensuring that young players can and will develop into the next generation of stars while the older players fade like they should without having to shoulder more than their aging bodies say they can.

[nickagneta]

Kevin Martin WILL NEVER leave Sac.

Why?

The Maloofs are in big trouble out there financially. The voters have already voted down public money for a new building that is old and unable to generate the type of revenues that owners are making throughout the league. Sacramento is a tiny market and with the outlook of a bad team for years to come, the fan base and gate revenue is going to shrink as it has been for the better part of 5 years. But the Kings have about 4 or 5 long term contracts that are going to make it impossible to attract good free agents there for next to nothing.

Better off dumping the contracts and moving to a city with a bunch of very young players and have the fan base at the new city, who will flock to see their new team for the first couple of year, grow with cheap youngsters. Don't forget, the salary structure at a site for like shamsports.com or hoopshype.com doesn't take into consideration that the Kings will be adding high price rookies every year to there payroll because they suck and will be choosing high in the draft where a rookie cost almost MLE money from the get go.

[Roy Hobbs]

Now basically that means allowing Pierce to expire and we are gambling on Rondo with the QO in 2010-11 still resigning a max contract after putting his payoff back one year. But if Rondo leaves the option is still then to promote Udrih to start and keeping Pierce at a reasonable price and adding another PG via the MLE that year.

The problem with banking on the qualifying offer is that there's no guarantee Rondo will play for it.  In the summer of Lebron, some disappointed team could very well offer him the max, meaning we've got a $13.5 salary cap hit as early as next year if we match.  The team may have to prepare for that contingency.