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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2009, 12:32:10 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Many, many occupations require pre-job training.  An age limit for the purpose of acquiring better skills isn't, to me, a bad thing, and it certainly isn't akin to slavery.

I don't think the limit is for that purpose. By that logic it would make sense to keep them out till they turn 27 since most players peak around 29

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2009, 12:33:39 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Stern says he'd like NBA players to play competition after high school, to get them ready for the NBA.  A similar practice by the NFL was held to be legal in Federal court.

Requiring people to develop skills prior to entering the work force is a fairly common practice.  I was required to spend seven years in post-high school education and earn two degrees before I was allowed to sit for the Bar examination.  Should I sue, because I think I should have been eligible to practice law after college, or after my first year of law school?  Or that I should have immediately been allowed to enter law school, without having to go to college first?

Many, many occupations require pre-job training.  An age limit for the purpose of acquiring better skills isn't, to me, a bad thing, and it certainly isn't akin to slavery.

It seems fairly uncommon to me however to try to prevent willing employers from hiring willing employers.

Who are the willing employers? If you mean the NBA teams, the supposed willing employers were the ones who put the age limit in place. I don't understand who are those willing employers.

Is there any law that prevents the creation of a basketball league that allows its teams to hire 18 years old kids? If not, I really can't understand what's the big deal.

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2009, 12:35:06 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I stand by my practice that its a money driven policy of mutual benefit to the NBA and NCAA that does not help the kids at all however.

So what? Is the NBA a philanthropic institution? They already have programs designed to help kids, like the NBA Cares and training camps. That's not their man goal though. The age limit is put in place to protect the teams from themselves, pretty much like salary restrictions.
Very true, which in the end is why I support the age limit. I also wouldn't mind to see it made longer. It results in a better NBA for me as a fan.

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2009, 12:35:21 PM »

Offline crownsy

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I stand by my practice that its a money driven policy of mutual benefit to the NBA and NCAA that does not help the kids at all however.

So what? Is the NBA a philanthropic institution? They already have programs designed to help kids, like the NBA Cares and training camps. That's not their man goal though. The age limit is put in place to protect the teams from themselves, pretty much like salary restrictions.

What does that have to do with me not likening or likening the practice on a personal level?

I acknowledge fully in the post that their is no legal reason the NBA can't impose a hiring restriction as any other company can.

That has no basis at all in my own personal opinion that its a scum bag policy, which is my right to hold, and that to defend it based on "It's a benefit for these players to get a free education". Thats a argument that imposes a philanthropic reason for the age limit, which i find laughable.

If you want to defend it as a sound business practice, that's fine, in fact i said it was a smart one in my post.
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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2009, 12:36:38 PM »

Offline Eja117

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First off to clarify an earlier statement, I am against most public policies that restrict employment based on age. Public policies on age should be made to protect the greater good and not discriminate against people of certain age.

That said, this is not a public policy but a policy that 2 different private companies have that have been upheld in a court of law. Really, how many people per year does this effect? The NBA has learned their lessons about drafting 18 year olds that aren't mentally ready for the league. Way too many of these kids are ruined by getting into the league and all that money too early.

Their policy is made to give those kids another year of growing up and seeing what life not at home is all about while simultaneously maturing their games and themselves.

And in reality, just how many kids are we talking about that this effects every year and how many does it truly adversely effect? The last three of years before the age restriction took place there were 9 or less players chosen in the first round:

2003 - 5 18 year olds - LeBron, Darko, Perk, Ndudi Ebi and Travis Outlaw
2004 - 9 18 year olds - Howard, Shaun Livingston, Biedrins, Swift, Telfair, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith and JR Smith
2005 - 4 18 year olds - Martell Webster, Bynum, Yaroslav Korelev, Gerald Green

How many would have still been guaranteed to be a first round pick after one year in college? 2, 3, maybe 4. The rest it can all be argued could really have used a year or more playing at a lower competitive level that would have better prepared them for the NBA and made their careers longer and more lucrative in the league.

The following three yeas here are the 19 year olds that came out each year:

2006 - Tyrus Thomas, Shawne Williams
2007 - Oden, Durant, Conley, Brandon Wright, Spencer Hawes, Jarvis Crittendon, Daequan Cook
2008 - Rose, Beasley, Mayo, Love, Gordon, Bayless, Anthony Randolph, JJ Hickson, Kostas Koufos, Donta Green.

Now look at this group. Just how many would have been guaranteed first round picks if they came straight from high school? Oden, Durant, Rose, Beasley and Mayo is all that I can fully give as guaranteed. Much of the rest got drafted in the first round because of what they did at the college level. Does Koufos, Green, Hickson, Bayless, Cook, Crittendon, Conley, Hawes, Williams or Thomas really get drafted in the first round as 18 year olds? I doubt it!!

This rule does a lot of players really good and over two three year periods it can be argued that this rule would have adversely effect maybe 7-9 players. Even then if you were to ask those players that were held back a year, I'm not sure all would say it was a bad thing for them.
It would have sucked for Doody Ebi cause he would never have gotten drafted

It would have REALLY sucked for S Livingston cause he would have gotten hurt and never made a dime

That's why you'll see a lot more Brandon Jennings and even the kid skipping his senior year of high school.  I don't think you can do lots to screw with the natural laws of supply and demand, although you can try

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2009, 12:38:56 PM »

Offline crownsy

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/sports/basketball/05stern.html?_r=3&ref=basketball


This sounds pretty ridiculous imho. Sounds like pathetic pandering as well. Not many baseball 18 yr olds are on major league teams, if any. They're in the minors. Business wise it makes sense for Stern to not want 18 yr olds in the NBA. They should call the NBA age limit rule the "Gerald Green Prevention Rule."  Then again he was like 21 when he finished HS.  :P

It does make sense for the nba, and the guys analogy is quite extreme, but the practice is still quite crooked.

 it is denial of employment for the express purpose of trying to force these players to play for free (in theory anyway) at the NCAA level, for all intents and purposes a minor league business partner of the NBA.

The player assume tons of injury risk and risk to their draft status to play for free at a basketball vocational school that they have no intention of finishing for educational purposes while the NCAA cashes in and the NBA gets another year to look at its future draft picks.

 that's why i have zero problem with them going overseas till they are 19.





So overseas is equivalent to minor league baseball in a way. From the NBA perspective it does a disservice to have 18 yr old NBA players on NBA rosters. Noone's forcing anyone to go to college.

If it's a disservice to be on an NBA team please sign me up for said disservice

Didn't say it was disservice to the player. I said from the "NBA perspective". The employer.

again john, the kind of baseball player that would be comparable makes far more than a NBA player picked in the top ten.
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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2009, 12:39:05 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Stern says he'd like NBA players to play competition after high school, to get them ready for the NBA.  A similar practice by the NFL was held to be legal in Federal court.

Requiring people to develop skills prior to entering the work force is a fairly common practice.  I was required to spend seven years in post-high school education and earn two degrees before I was allowed to sit for the Bar examination.  Should I sue, because I think I should have been eligible to practice law after college, or after my first year of law school?  Or that I should have immediately been allowed to enter law school, without having to go to college first?

Many, many occupations require pre-job training.  An age limit for the purpose of acquiring better skills isn't, to me, a bad thing, and it certainly isn't akin to slavery.

It seems fairly uncommon to me however to try to prevent willing employers from hiring willing employers.

Who are the willing employers? If you mean the NBA teams, the supposed willing employers were the ones who put the age limit in place. I don't understand who are those willing employers.

Is there any law that prevents the creation of a basketball league that allows its teams to hire 18 years old kids? If not, I really can't understand what's the big deal.

The NBA teams voted on this? That would seem unnecessary. If they really didn't want 18 year olds in the league then stop drafting them.  

I am assuming the NBA has an anti-trust exemption, like the MLB, and if they're going to discriminate then I assume the government can say something about that

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2009, 12:39:19 PM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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But my point is, no, i don't see what intrinsic benefit going to school for a year and opening themselves up to financial risk has for the athletes. It is a completely one sided relationship, and i hope EVERY player that can goes to Europe, rather than play in the NCAA for the NBA's and NCAA's financial benefit.









Well there's no benefit for young baseball players to have to make little money in the minors, or set controlled small amounts in the majors for their first several years and then only be eligible for arbitration.  Or for teachers to make less than 40K starting out, while working harder often than more experienced older higher paying teachers. And for those younger teachers to have no tenure and be the first to let go in bad financial times.

John, you do know that the caliber of player that we are comparing (high level baseball vs high level basketball players) get massive signing bonuses right?


The top pick in last years MLB draft, who was 18, got a 5 million dollar check.

We are discussing the top 1% here, not all players in each sport. For a guy who may or may not be drafted, absolutely its a benefit to stay in school.


for instance, this kid is one of those young star baseball players your comparing to top ten NBA picks.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3537566


I would say he made out alright.


You wrote this on the first page, so I thought you were standing up for the 18 yr olds who were not the top 1% and had more options (like getting paid in Europe). ???


Quote
Sure the NBA is. Europe is only open for top level guys. If you don't go to college as a mid round/ 2nd round guy prospect, who on earth do you think is going to draft you after a year not playing basketball while others who went to college are impressing scouts?

Regarding the first pick in this years MLB draft, he might get a 50 million signing bonus if Boras gets his wish, but keep in mind that he'll be 21 yr old in a month and at 18 I don't think was even drafted and wouldn't have gotten peanuts.

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2009, 12:40:46 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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If the MLB manages this situation okay with the minor leagues, why doesn't the NBA just make the D-League more like the minor leagues and require players to spend a year in the D-Leagues / abroad?  At least that way they get paid for their playing time and there could be a farm system akin to the baseball system.

Plus then people would actually pay attention to the D-League.
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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2009, 12:45:04 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I just reread my last post and realized I left out the most important point.

ANYONE can shoot a basketball.  ANYONE can dribble a basketball.  ANYONE can pass a basketball.  There really isn't a heck of a lot of skill involved in the actual actions required to play basketball.  The "skill" is mostly a result of physical accumen.  I'm sure if I was 6'8" and 250 pounds of solid muscle, I'd be playing a professional sport of some kind.  Alas, I'm 5'11" and about 175 pounds. 

Unless you have the training, you aren't going to be able to try a case, perform a surgery, design a building, etc. 
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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2009, 12:48:25 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Kids shouldn't be forced to either

A) Work and produce for someone for no compensation at college (but, lets be honest...)

or

B) Be forced to uproot their lives halfway across the globe to be properly compensated for a service they provide, even though that same service is alive and strong in the US.

To be clear, those aren't the only options.  Kids can play a post-grad year at prep school, or in junior college.  Players can join the D-league or another minor league league, as well.  Or, of course, they can sit out a year. 

Also, this "no compensation" thing is silly to me.  How much is an NCAA scholarship worth?  $200,000 over four years, at a top college / university?  This isn't indentured servitude; I wish somebody had fully funded my education for my talents straight out of high school.

How much would USC have paid for the free publicity and added attendance OJ Mayo brought them? Kansas State and Mike Beasley?

What about Derrick Rose at Memphis? I mean the list goes on.

Im not saying college athletes should be compensated by the college, what Im saying is that if the options are D-League (is that even an option? Can you even be drafted?), Prep School, or a free ride at a college, they're gonna go college.

The problem to me is that college serves as a glorified minor league to the NBA and makes money hand over fist. The kids should have the opportunity to be fairly compensated for their services. Fairly compensated isn't <25,000 through the D-League. Its not playing for free at a prep school, and its not sitting a year out. If you want to be paid what your athletic services are worth, you gotta go abroad, and that's not fair.


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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2009, 12:54:21 PM »

Offline crownsy

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If the MLB manages this situation okay with the minor leagues, why doesn't the NBA just make the D-League more like the minor leagues and require players to spend a year in the D-Leagues / abroad?  At least that way they get paid for their playing time and there could be a farm system akin to the baseball system.

Plus then people would actually pay attention to the D-League.

Im with you on this, In a perfect world, I would love to see the NBA split into two 16 team leagues and have regulation and promotion like international soccer leagues.

The way the league is entrenched this is completely un-do able in reality of course, but to me, the system soccer leagues around the world use would add more drama and keep the competition among the top 16 teams extremely high.

again, not even remotely feasible with he way the NBA works and its tradition, but i think that would be amazing way to follow the game.
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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2009, 12:55:33 PM »

Offline crownsy

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I just reread my last post and realized I left out the most important point.

ANYONE can shoot a basketball.  ANYONE can dribble a basketball.  ANYONE can pass a basketball.  There really isn't a heck of a lot of skill involved in the actual actions required to play basketball.  The "skill" is mostly a result of physical accumen.  I'm sure if I was 6'8" and 250 pounds of solid muscle, I'd be playing a professional sport of some kind.  Alas, I'm 5'11" and about 175 pounds. 

Unless you have the training, you aren't going to be able to try a case, perform a surgery, design a building, etc. 

exactly, TP4U, thats what i was getting at in my post as well. As i was saying, its a fine business practice, despite my personal feelings on it, just don't tell me there's some benefit for the kids in going to college for a year. That's not why the NBA and the NCAA do it.

Thats all i was getting at, that to defend it as some sort of great business move for a kid who's skill is dribbling around a floor to go on a year long free tryout is silly.

 Its a great business move for the NBA, but not the player, and as such, I have zero problem in kid's making the smart personal decision and playing abroad if it's feasible for them.




“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2009, 12:57:34 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Kids shouldn't be forced to either

A) Work and produce for someone for no compensation at college (but, lets be honest...)

or

B) Be forced to uproot their lives halfway across the globe to be properly compensated for a service they provide, even though that same service is alive and strong in the US.

To be clear, those aren't the only options.  Kids can play a post-grad year at prep school, or in junior college.  Players can join the D-league or another minor league league, as well.  Or, of course, they can sit out a year. 

Also, this "no compensation" thing is silly to me.  How much is an NCAA scholarship worth?  $200,000 over four years, at a top college / university?  This isn't indentured servitude; I wish somebody had fully funded my education for my talents straight out of high school.

but did you have a 2 million dollar first year salary available?

Why does it matter if it's $2 million, or $75,000?  It's more than I was making sitting in class for seven years, wasn't it?  I was forced to give up not one, but seven years of pay.  Those seven years also put me (or would have put me) farther behind on the partnership track than if I'd been able to go straight to law school out of high school, or join a law firm that would take me.  After all, in much of Europe, Asia, and Australia, a law degree can be obtained in four to six years.  Despite the fact that I'm forced to pay tuition for seven years, I don't call myself a "slave".

Is your argument is only potentially rich people shouldn't have their employment restricted?  That makes no sense to me. Either pre-employment qualifications are valid, or they're not.
you aren't actually comparing law school to playing a sport are you?
Why not? Both are jobs that require a very specific skill set and have restrictions placed on them.

You don't have to go to law school to take the bar, at least not in all 50 states. So I proved Roy wrong. And he's a lawyer. :)

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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2009, 12:58:39 PM »

Offline Moranis

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First off to clarify an earlier statement, I am against most public policies that restrict employment based on age. Public policies on age should be made to protect the greater good and not discriminate against people of certain age.

That said, this is not a public policy but a policy that 2 different private companies have that have been upheld in a court of law. Really, how many people per year does this effect? The NBA has learned their lessons about drafting 18 year olds that aren't mentally ready for the league. Way too many of these kids are ruined by getting into the league and all that money too early.

Their policy is made to give those kids another year of growing up and seeing what life not at home is all about while simultaneously maturing their games and themselves.

And in reality, just how many kids are we talking about that this effects every year and how many does it truly adversely effect? The last three of years before the age restriction took place there were 9 or less players chosen in the first round:

2003 - 5 18 year olds - LeBron, Darko, Perk, Ndudi Ebi and Travis Outlaw
2004 - 9 18 year olds - Howard, Shaun Livingston, Biedrins, Swift, Telfair, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith and JR Smith
2005 - 4 18 year olds - Martell Webster, Bynum, Yaroslav Korelev, Gerald Green

How many would have still been guaranteed to be a first round pick after one year in college? 2, 3, maybe 4. The rest it can all be argued could really have used a year or more playing at a lower competitive level that would have better prepared them for the NBA and made their careers longer and more lucrative in the league.

The following three yeas here are the 19 year olds that came out each year:

2006 - Tyrus Thomas, Shawne Williams
2007 - Oden, Durant, Conley, Brandon Wright, Spencer Hawes, Jarvis Crittendon, Daequan Cook
2008 - Rose, Beasley, Mayo, Love, Gordon, Bayless, Anthony Randolph, JJ Hickson, Kostas Koufos, Donta Green.

Now look at this group. Just how many would have been guaranteed first round picks if they came straight from high school? Oden, Durant, Rose, Beasley and Mayo is all that I can fully give as guaranteed. Much of the rest got drafted in the first round because of what they did at the college level. Does Koufos, Green, Hickson, Bayless, Cook, Crittendon, Conley, Hawes, Williams or Thomas really get drafted in the first round as 18 year olds? I doubt it!!

This rule does a lot of players really good and over two three year periods it can be argued that this rule would have adversely effect maybe 7-9 players. Even then if you were to ask those players that were held back a year, I'm not sure all would say it was a bad thing for them.
Darko, Korelev, and Biedrins don't count since they were foreign.  

Of the Americans drafted, about half probably would have been hurt by going to college because there flaws would have been exposed and thus they would lost money.  That is the thing that never seems to be discussed.  

I was at the University of Cincinnati when Kenny Satterfield came (way before the age limit).  He was projected as a mid-20's draft pick before stepping foot on a college campus.  He thought a year of college would have moved him into the top ten.  He played ok as a freshman and decided to come back to school.  He had a very strong second year and went pro.  He was the 25th pick in the SECOND ROUND.  He played a couple of years making the NBA minimum before leaving the league all together.  Had he come out as a freshman, he would have made about 10 times the dollars and maybe would have even got a second contract.  

I mention this because you often hear the age limit is supposed to protect the players from themselves, but the reality is, it hurts players just as much if not more frequently than it helps them.  The NBA is clearly helped, but at the detriment to college and the players.  How that is deemed a good system I couldn't tell you.
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