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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2009, 11:00:05 AM »

Offline crownsy

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/sports/basketball/05stern.html?_r=3&ref=basketball


This sounds pretty ridiculous imho. Sounds like pathetic pandering as well. Not many baseball 18 yr olds are on major league teams, if any. They're in the minors. Business wise it makes sense for Stern to not want 18 yr olds in the NBA. They should call the NBA age limit rule the "Gerald Green Prevention Rule."  Then again he was like 21 when he finished HS.  :P

It does make sense for the nba, and the guys analogy is quite extreme, but the practice is still quite crooked.

 it is denial of employment for the express purpose of trying to force these players to play for free (in theory anyway) at the NCAA level, for all intents and purposes a minor league business partner of the NBA.

The player assume tons of injury risk and risk to their draft status to play for free at a basketball vocational school that they have no intention of finishing for educational purposes while the NCAA cashes in and the NBA gets another year to look at its future draft picks.

 that's why i have zero problem with them going overseas till they are 19.





So overseas is equivalent to minor league baseball in a way. From the NBA perspective it does a disservice to have 18 yr old NBA players on NBA rosters. Noone's forcing anyone to go to college.

Sure the NBA is. Europe is only open for top level guys. If you don't go to college as a mid round/ 2nd round guy prospect, who on earth do you think is going to draft you after a year not playing basketball while others who went to college are impressing scouts?



Look it makes great business sense to do this "scratch your back I'll scratch yours" thing with the NCAA for both sides, its why stern is trying to make it two years of college pre-NBA.

The NBA gets a year of easy scouting and hype for the player, The NCAA gets tons of profit from the same hype. IT's a no-brainer from a business standpoint.

It still doesn't change the fact its a screw job for the kids. What if you get hurt on your free tour of the country's NCAA arena's?

It would be like if you wanted to apply for a job, but first you had to work for free for a year, and at the end of said year, they MAY offer you the position or not. No one would stand for that in corporate America. IT's a shady business practice.

18 year olds are eligible to play and get paid in the NBA's minor leagues, the NBADL. In baseball 99.9% of 18 year olds are in the minors. This is not unheard of, and to compare it to slavery is pathetic political pandering at its worst.

yes, your right.

 as i said in my first post, the guy is an idiot and its a terrible analogy.

I stand by my practice that its a money driven policy of mutual benefit to the NBA and NCAA that does not help the kids at all however.

“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2009, 11:04:53 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Kids shouldn't be forced to either

A) Work and produce for someone for no compensation at college (but, lets be honest...)

or

B) Be forced to uproot their lives halfway across the globe to be properly compensated for a service they provide, even though that same service is alive and strong in the US.

To be clear, those aren't the only options.  Kids can play a post-grad year at prep school, or in junior college.  Players can join the D-league or another minor league league, as well.  Or, of course, they can sit out a year. 

Also, this "no compensation" thing is silly to me.  How much is an NCAA scholarship worth?  $200,000 over four years, at a top college / university?  This isn't indentured servitude; I wish somebody had fully funded my education for my talents straight out of high school.

but did you have a 2 million dollar first year salary available?

Why does it matter if it's $2 million, or $75,000?  It's more than I was making sitting in class for seven years, wasn't it?  I was forced to give up not one, but seven years of pay.  Those seven years also put me (or would have put me) farther behind on the partnership track than if I'd been able to go straight to law school out of high school, or join a law firm that would take me.  After all, in much of Europe, Asia, and Australia, a law degree can be obtained in four to six years.  Despite the fact that I'm forced to pay tuition for seven years, I don't call myself a "slave".

Is your argument is only potentially rich people shouldn't have their employment restricted?  That makes no sense to me. Either pre-employment qualifications are valid, or they're not.

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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2009, 11:44:26 AM »

Online Moranis

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Kids shouldn't be forced to either

A) Work and produce for someone for no compensation at college (but, lets be honest...)

or

B) Be forced to uproot their lives halfway across the globe to be properly compensated for a service they provide, even though that same service is alive and strong in the US.

To be clear, those aren't the only options.  Kids can play a post-grad year at prep school, or in junior college.  Players can join the D-league or another minor league league, as well.  Or, of course, they can sit out a year. 

Also, this "no compensation" thing is silly to me.  How much is an NCAA scholarship worth?  $200,000 over four years, at a top college / university?  This isn't indentured servitude; I wish somebody had fully funded my education for my talents straight out of high school.

but did you have a 2 million dollar first year salary available?

Why does it matter if it's $2 million, or $75,000?  It's more than I was making sitting in class for seven years, wasn't it?  I was forced to give up not one, but seven years of pay.  Those seven years also put me (or would have put me) farther behind on the partnership track than if I'd been able to go straight to law school out of high school, or join a law firm that would take me.  After all, in much of Europe, Asia, and Australia, a law degree can be obtained in four to six years.  Despite the fact that I'm forced to pay tuition for seven years, I don't call myself a "slave".

Is your argument is only potentially rich people shouldn't have their employment restricted?  That makes no sense to me. Either pre-employment qualifications are valid, or they're not.
you aren't actually comparing law school to playing a sport are you?
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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2009, 11:47:57 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Kids shouldn't be forced to either

A) Work and produce for someone for no compensation at college (but, lets be honest...)

or

B) Be forced to uproot their lives halfway across the globe to be properly compensated for a service they provide, even though that same service is alive and strong in the US.

To be clear, those aren't the only options.  Kids can play a post-grad year at prep school, or in junior college.  Players can join the D-league or another minor league league, as well.  Or, of course, they can sit out a year. 

Also, this "no compensation" thing is silly to me.  How much is an NCAA scholarship worth?  $200,000 over four years, at a top college / university?  This isn't indentured servitude; I wish somebody had fully funded my education for my talents straight out of high school.

but did you have a 2 million dollar first year salary available?

Why does it matter if it's $2 million, or $75,000?  It's more than I was making sitting in class for seven years, wasn't it?  I was forced to give up not one, but seven years of pay.  Those seven years also put me (or would have put me) farther behind on the partnership track than if I'd been able to go straight to law school out of high school, or join a law firm that would take me.  After all, in much of Europe, Asia, and Australia, a law degree can be obtained in four to six years.  Despite the fact that I'm forced to pay tuition for seven years, I don't call myself a "slave".

Is your argument is only potentially rich people shouldn't have their employment restricted?  That makes no sense to me. Either pre-employment qualifications are valid, or they're not.
you aren't actually comparing law school to playing a sport are you?
Why not? Both are jobs that require a very specific skill set and have restrictions placed on them.

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2009, 11:51:22 AM »

Online Moranis

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All the age limit has done is destroy any shot college basketball had at remaining amateur.  Seriously guys have to pass 2 really easy classes and don't even have to step foot in class at all the entire second semester.  They get money all over the place.  They have people do their homework for them.  Etc.  This is obviously the top level guys like say Derek Rose who likely didn't even take his own SAT.

I'd be ok with a rule that says you can go straight to the NBA, but if you go to college you need to remain for at least 2 years.  That really would eliminate a lot of the problems that have resulted to the college game.  And if the NBA is worried, they should just create a minor league and they could even come up with some sort salary structure that accounts for the minor league i.e. the first pick in the draft gets 5 million if he is on the NBA roster, but only gets 1 million if he is on the minor league roster (or something like that).
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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2009, 11:54:45 AM »

Online Moranis

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Kids shouldn't be forced to either

A) Work and produce for someone for no compensation at college (but, lets be honest...)

or

B) Be forced to uproot their lives halfway across the globe to be properly compensated for a service they provide, even though that same service is alive and strong in the US.

To be clear, those aren't the only options.  Kids can play a post-grad year at prep school, or in junior college.  Players can join the D-league or another minor league league, as well.  Or, of course, they can sit out a year. 

Also, this "no compensation" thing is silly to me.  How much is an NCAA scholarship worth?  $200,000 over four years, at a top college / university?  This isn't indentured servitude; I wish somebody had fully funded my education for my talents straight out of high school.

but did you have a 2 million dollar first year salary available?

Why does it matter if it's $2 million, or $75,000?  It's more than I was making sitting in class for seven years, wasn't it?  I was forced to give up not one, but seven years of pay.  Those seven years also put me (or would have put me) farther behind on the partnership track than if I'd been able to go straight to law school out of high school, or join a law firm that would take me.  After all, in much of Europe, Asia, and Australia, a law degree can be obtained in four to six years.  Despite the fact that I'm forced to pay tuition for seven years, I don't call myself a "slave".

Is your argument is only potentially rich people shouldn't have their employment restricted?  That makes no sense to me. Either pre-employment qualifications are valid, or they're not.
you aren't actually comparing law school to playing a sport are you?
Why not? Both are jobs that require a very specific skill set and have restrictions placed on them.
what are the restrictions placed on NBA players?  Seriously.  Did Lebron James need college?  LBJ was trained to be a basketball player from birth and entered the league as a well above average player at 18.  If Roy had been training since birth to be a lawyer and could pass the bar at 18, I'd have no problem giving him a license, that just isn't the way the world has ever worked.  You can't train to be a lawyer until you finish high school, you can train to be a basketball player before you even start high school.
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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2009, 11:57:41 AM »

Offline crownsy

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It matters because it changes your future options and choices. Lets use my personal education track.

In reality, i grew up in a middle class family on the cape. I was a good High school student, but only a decent HS athlete at best. I loved baseketball, but the option to play it as a career was not avaiable to me as a 6'1 guy who couldn't really shoot or jump out of the gym.

 At the end of my HS days, my options were work at a manual labor job or to continue on in my education and get a higher paying job.

I choose to follow that path, fell in love with the law, and will now be going to law school starting in august. As you surmised, for me, the ability to play a sport for free education would have been huge. I would not have had to take a year and a half away from school once i graduated to rebuild my finances from putting myself through with loans and part time jobs.

My choices were a direct result of my earning potential and realistic salary. I have no regrets about the path i took, and I am looking forward to LS to maximize my earnings potential and follow something else i enjoy. for me, college was a blessing.

But, had I been say, good enough at basketball to earn a top ten pick, even discovering i loved the law, would i have been required under your assertion that going to college is a "huge benifit"? because for someone it that position, it isn't. It opens me up to all kinds of injury risks, salary loss because of a bad year, and the chance that my stock drops simply by not preforming up to the hype.

For the above person, college is not, IMO, a smart option. Every person has the right to maximize there earnings potential, and for kids in the above position, that means they should play pro ball asap. I fail to see any benefit for them vs the risk of a drop in salary.

You can't project our needs and desires onto these athletes. Yes, in the above position, it would have been amazing for me to get a free education and continue on to law school. but in the second scenario, it isn't a benefit, since the law is not my ultimate goal.


Now, on to point two, the restriction of employment by the company doing the hiring.

Of course, any employer is free to restrict hiring practices based on qualifications. My issue is not a legality one based on weather the NBA can do that or not. They can, they are a business. My issue is more with the motives.

In your (and hopefully mine in the future :D) profession, there is a clear interest in the system in place. I will not even pretend to have 1% of the knowledge base you have acquired in law school and subsequent years. because our profession is vital and effects others, it is of course in the best interests of all involved to see that we are as highly trained as we can be and conform to at the very least a minimum stranded of competence and knowledge. I feel the same about any profession that requires the vast sums of experience ours does, such as medicine, research, business, ect, ect.

Those are all high intelligence jobs that effect others lives directly and on a very personal level.

But lets be clear. the job of an NBA player is to dribble a spherical object around a court for the entertainment of others. He has no impact, except emotionally (and in the case of us diehards, future health in these nail biting games :d), on anyone.

To claim that the NBA is just doing its due diligence and imposing a necessary restriction on employment to me is silly.  it is a road block that helps a business partner, in fact if not in name, gain a benifit.

There is clear value to our professions in the knowledge we acquire over the course of our education. We should be required to demonstrate that. But of what benefit to the typical NBA player are entry level freshman classes?

None of this changes that A) this guy is a moron and a year at a party school is in no way, shape or form like slavery, and he is compelty in the wrong for saying so. or that B) The nba can do this, because it is the only high paying game around.

But my point is, no, i don't see what intrinsic benefit going to school for a year and opening themselves up to financial risk has for the athletes. It is a completely one sided relationship, and i hope EVERY player that can goes to Europe, rather than play in the NCAA for the NBA's and NCAA's financial benefit.








“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2009, 12:09:17 PM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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But my point is, no, i don't see what intrinsic benefit going to school for a year and opening themselves up to financial risk has for the athletes. It is a completely one sided relationship, and i hope EVERY player that can goes to Europe, rather than play in the NCAA for the NBA's and NCAA's financial benefit.









Well there's no benefit for young baseball players to have to make little money in the minors, or set controlled small amounts in the majors for their first several years and then only be eligible for arbitration.  Or for teachers to make less than 40K starting out, while working harder often than more experienced older higher paying teachers. And for those younger teachers to have no tenure and be the first to let go in bad financial times.

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2009, 12:21:38 PM »

Offline crownsy

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But my point is, no, i don't see what intrinsic benefit going to school for a year and opening themselves up to financial risk has for the athletes. It is a completely one sided relationship, and i hope EVERY player that can goes to Europe, rather than play in the NCAA for the NBA's and NCAA's financial benefit.









Well there's no benefit for young baseball players to have to make little money in the minors, or set controlled small amounts in the majors for their first several years and then only be eligible for arbitration.  Or for teachers to make less than 40K starting out, while working harder often than more experienced older higher paying teachers. And for those younger teachers to have no tenure and be the first to let go in bad financial times.

John, you do know that the caliber of player that we are comparing (high level baseball vs high level basketball players) get massive signing bonuses right?


The top pick in last years MLB draft, who was 18, got a 5 million dollar check.

We are discussing the top 1% here, not all players in each sport. For a guy who may or may not be drafted, absolutely its a benefit to stay in school.


for instance, this kid is one of those young star baseball players your comparing to top ten NBA picks.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3537566


I would say he made out alright.
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2009, 12:24:11 PM »

Offline Eja117

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/sports/basketball/05stern.html?_r=3&ref=basketball


This sounds pretty ridiculous imho. Sounds like pathetic pandering as well. Not many baseball 18 yr olds are on major league teams, if any. They're in the minors. Business wise it makes sense for Stern to not want 18 yr olds in the NBA. They should call the NBA age limit rule the "Gerald Green Prevention Rule."  Then again he was like 21 when he finished HS.  :P

It does make sense for the nba, and the guys analogy is quite extreme, but the practice is still quite crooked.

 it is denial of employment for the express purpose of trying to force these players to play for free (in theory anyway) at the NCAA level, for all intents and purposes a minor league business partner of the NBA.

The player assume tons of injury risk and risk to their draft status to play for free at a basketball vocational school that they have no intention of finishing for educational purposes while the NCAA cashes in and the NBA gets another year to look at its future draft picks.

 that's why i have zero problem with them going overseas till they are 19.





So overseas is equivalent to minor league baseball in a way. From the NBA perspective it does a disservice to have 18 yr old NBA players on NBA rosters. Noone's forcing anyone to go to college.

If it's a disservice to be on an NBA team please sign me up for said disservice

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2009, 12:27:23 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Stern says he'd like NBA players to play competition after high school, to get them ready for the NBA.  A similar practice by the NFL was held to be legal in Federal court.

Requiring people to develop skills prior to entering the work force is a fairly common practice.  I was required to spend seven years in post-high school education and earn two degrees before I was allowed to sit for the Bar examination.  Should I sue, because I think I should have been eligible to practice law after college, or after my first year of law school?  Or that I should have immediately been allowed to enter law school, without having to go to college first?

Many, many occupations require pre-job training.  An age limit for the purpose of acquiring better skills isn't, to me, a bad thing, and it certainly isn't akin to slavery.

It seems fairly uncommon to me however to try to prevent willing employers from hiring willing employers.

I was also under the impression that once you're 18 you can ruin your life as you see fit.

I saw this as just age discrimination and not at all for the benefit of the kids.

Success in life isn't something that can be guaranteed and neither should people try

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2009, 12:29:46 PM »

Offline Redz

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Stern says he'd like NBA players to play competition after high school, to get them ready for the NBA.  A similar practice by the NFL was held to be legal in Federal court.

Requiring people to develop skills prior to entering the work force is a fairly common practice.  I was required to spend seven years in post-high school education and earn two degrees before I was allowed to sit for the Bar examination.  Should I sue, because I think I should have been eligible to practice law after college, or after my first year of law school?  Or that I should have immediately been allowed to enter law school, without having to go to college first?

Many, many occupations require pre-job training.  An age limit for the purpose of acquiring better skills isn't, to me, a bad thing, and it certainly isn't akin to slavery.

Hypothetically had you been a child genius and completed all of your degrees by the time you were 18.  Would you be allowed to practice law?
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Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2009, 12:30:55 PM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/sports/basketball/05stern.html?_r=3&ref=basketball


This sounds pretty ridiculous imho. Sounds like pathetic pandering as well. Not many baseball 18 yr olds are on major league teams, if any. They're in the minors. Business wise it makes sense for Stern to not want 18 yr olds in the NBA. They should call the NBA age limit rule the "Gerald Green Prevention Rule."  Then again he was like 21 when he finished HS.  :P

It does make sense for the nba, and the guys analogy is quite extreme, but the practice is still quite crooked.

 it is denial of employment for the express purpose of trying to force these players to play for free (in theory anyway) at the NCAA level, for all intents and purposes a minor league business partner of the NBA.

The player assume tons of injury risk and risk to their draft status to play for free at a basketball vocational school that they have no intention of finishing for educational purposes while the NCAA cashes in and the NBA gets another year to look at its future draft picks.

 that's why i have zero problem with them going overseas till they are 19.





So overseas is equivalent to minor league baseball in a way. From the NBA perspective it does a disservice to have 18 yr old NBA players on NBA rosters. Noone's forcing anyone to go to college.

If it's a disservice to be on an NBA team please sign me up for said disservice

Didn't say it was disservice to the player. I said from the "NBA perspective". The employer.

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2009, 12:31:41 PM »

Offline cordobes

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I stand by my practice that its a money driven policy of mutual benefit to the NBA and NCAA that does not help the kids at all however.

So what? Is the NBA a philanthropic institution? They already have programs designed to help kids, like the NBA Cares and training camps. That's not their man goal though. The age limit is put in place to protect the teams from themselves, pretty much like salary restrictions.

Re: Congressman compares NBA age limit to slavery
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2009, 12:32:01 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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First off to clarify an earlier statement, I am against most public policies that restrict employment based on age. Public policies on age should be made to protect the greater good and not discriminate against people of certain age.

That said, this is not a public policy but a policy that 2 different private companies have that have been upheld in a court of law. Really, how many people per year does this effect? The NBA has learned their lessons about drafting 18 year olds that aren't mentally ready for the league. Way too many of these kids are ruined by getting into the league and all that money too early.

Their policy is made to give those kids another year of growing up and seeing what life not at home is all about while simultaneously maturing their games and themselves.

And in reality, just how many kids are we talking about that this effects every year and how many does it truly adversely effect? The last three of years before the age restriction took place there were 9 or less players chosen in the first round:

2003 - 5 18 year olds - LeBron, Darko, Perk, Ndudi Ebi and Travis Outlaw
2004 - 9 18 year olds - Howard, Shaun Livingston, Biedrins, Swift, Telfair, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith and JR Smith
2005 - 4 18 year olds - Martell Webster, Bynum, Yaroslav Korelev, Gerald Green

How many would have still been guaranteed to be a first round pick after one year in college? 2, 3, maybe 4. The rest it can all be argued could really have used a year or more playing at a lower competitive level that would have better prepared them for the NBA and made their careers longer and more lucrative in the league.

The following three yeas here are the 19 year olds that came out each year:

2006 - Tyrus Thomas, Shawne Williams
2007 - Oden, Durant, Conley, Brandon Wright, Spencer Hawes, Jarvis Crittendon, Daequan Cook
2008 - Rose, Beasley, Mayo, Love, Gordon, Bayless, Anthony Randolph, JJ Hickson, Kostas Koufos, Donta Green.

Now look at this group. Just how many would have been guaranteed first round picks if they came straight from high school? Oden, Durant, Rose, Beasley and Mayo is all that I can fully give as guaranteed. Much of the rest got drafted in the first round because of what they did at the college level. Does Koufos, Green, Hickson, Bayless, Cook, Crittendon, Conley, Hawes, Williams or Thomas really get drafted in the first round as 18 year olds? I doubt it!!

This rule does a lot of players really good and over two three year periods it can be argued that this rule would have adversely effect maybe 7-9 players. Even then if you were to ask those players that were held back a year, I'm not sure all would say it was a bad thing for them.