Allen for Hinrich & Ty Thomas

[Moranis]

Bulls are actively shopping Ty Thomas and Hinrich is redundant with Rose and Gordon (assuming they re-sign him).  Allen is another shooter which the Bulls need especially with Gordon's inconsistency.  Rose, Gordon, and Allen would be a great backcourt rotation for the Bulls and with Noah, Deng, Salmons, and Tim Thomas at the 3 and 4, they don't really need Ty Thomas.

Rumor has it they would prefer a PF for the Thomas/Hinrich combo, but I'm not sure they would do better than Ray Allen, who in addition to being a great shooter would provide them the veteran leadership they could really use.

The C's would add an athlete who can play PF and SF and would get a great backup PG that could easily play with Rondo (obvioulsy against bigger SG's it would be problematic, but against most SG's that combo could be deadly with the speed, driving ability, and ball handling).

[johnnyrondo]

The Bulls wouldn't do that trade. They'd only want Allen if they lost Gordon and they're not moving those players for a guard. Only a big man. Deng isn't a PF and Tim Thomas is knocking on washed up.

The C's wouldn't do the deal either, b/c they wouldn't want to extend Tyrus for big bucks and our backcourt would be really small.

[bknova]

No.  And we're not trading Ray Allen or Paul Pierce or Rajon Rondo or Kevin Garnett or Kendrick Perkins.  Thats it.

[Coach]

No.  And we're not trading Ray Allen or Paul Pierce or Rajon Rondo or Kevin Garnett or Kendrick Perkins.  Thats it.

This is the most idiotic thing if heard.  If the Bulls would do this trade, Danny would be back in the hospital with another heart attack.  There is no way they would do it.  It would be too good to be true. 

[Steve Weinman]

Out of curiosity, what is the basis for the perpetuation of the "Gordon inconsistency" bit?

I don't mean to come off as picking on you, Moranis - it's a question open to everyone because I read this a lot, and I'm not sure I get it: Gordon has yet to post a season below 40 percent from three-point land.  He posted true shooting percentages better than 57 in two of the last three years (55.4 for his career), scored 20-plus points per game twice in five seasons and has spent his entire career to date between 19.6 and 23.3 points per 36 minutes.  

If the complaint is that he doesn't hit his average every night but busts out some nights and has off nights in other contests, well, doesn't that go for most scorers?  Is there a study demonstrating that Gordon has wider scoring deviation than other lead scorers?

There's plenty I don't like about BG7's game.  But I think the idea of waving away his scoring contributions as inconsistent may not be fair.

In the meantime, I'm not sure I see too much upside in the proposed deal for the C's: Thomas is an intriguing talent but not a starter on this team, and Hinrich's top attribute as you mention is as a "great backup point guard."  Dealing an all-star off-guard for that package wouldn't thrill me.  I get that DA may need to listen to offers for Ray this summer given age and contract situation, but if a move is made, I hope it's for a more appealing package.

-sw

[Who]

Is there a study demonstrating that Gordon has wider scoring deviation than other lead scorers?

There is one Steve, a very good fan post on Blog a Bull sometime in the last month. It measured exactly what you asked about -- standard deviation in scoring -- It found that Gordon was less consistent than other 20 point scorers .... however, the gap was fairly small. So more inconsistent but not that significant a difference.

The problem with Gordon on bad shooting/scoring nights, is that he does nothing else to help his team. So his bad nights stand out more, and he's a much larger liability than many other 20 point scorers. I think that's why folks notice his bad nights more, and why he has a larger reputation than he deserves for being inconsistent and inefficient (still a common complaint).

Anyway ... As for the trade, I'm not a fan of it. I think the C's end up losing talent.

[Quinn]

Never.
Ray Allen > Hinrich and Thomas.

any day.

[Steve Weinman]

Is there a study demonstrating that Gordon has wider scoring deviation than other lead scorers?

There is one Steve, a very good fan post on Blog a Bull sometime in the last month. It measured exactly what you asked about -- standard deviation in scoring -- It found that Gordon was less consistent than other 20 point scorers .... however, the gap was fairly small. So more inconsistent but not that significant a difference.

The problem with Gordon on bad shooting/scoring nights, is that he does nothing else to help his team. So his bad nights stand out more, and he's a much larger liability than many other 20 point scorers. I think that's why folks notice his bad nights more, and why he has a larger reputation than he deserves for being inconsistent and inefficient (still a common complaint).

Anyway ... As for the trade, I'm not a fan of it. I think the C's end up losing talent.

Thanks for reminding me of that, Who - I thought I remembered seeing that in their right navbar headlines at BaB at some point during the first round (posted by a KU fan, if I recall), but I didn't get a chance to get through it in detail as I was lazing off at work at the time it caught my eye.  I'm going to go back and take a look at that over the next day or two.

And yep, I agree completely about what happens on nights when he doesn't have the touch - as I've written before, I'm no fan of his passing, ball-handling or defense.  But as you begin to allude, it would make more sense for that to be the complaint than inconsistency or even less accurately, inefficiency.

Thanks again, Who.

-sw

[hardlyyardley]

Never.
Ray Allen > Hinrich and Thomas.

any day.


that was from a few posts back...Don't know how to box a post

disagree.....we're buying about 6-10 years....do it!!! and send TA back to his home in the same trade.....although I would prefer Deng to Thomas.....PP's eventual replacement

[Moranis]

Never.
Ray Allen > Hinrich and Thomas.

any day.

Come on the days when Ray Allen is a better player with more production than the combination of Hinrich and Thomas are gone.  Not to mention that Thomas and Hinrich are on the upswing while Allen is clearly on the downswing.  From a purely talent standpoint, the C's make out in the trade going forward, the Bulls would only do this to cut back cost by getting rid of redundant positions for them (Thomas is not going to start ahead of Deng or Noah, and Hinrich is not going to start ahead of Rose or Gordon). 

Hinrich could however start at SG on the C's (the backcourt would be small, but very few teams have SG's that Hinrich can't guard) and Thomas could eventually start at SF or PF for the C's.  The trade just makes sense given each teams respective rosters and where they are at.

The Bulls really could use another shooter and definately need veteran leadership.  If they had a veteran like Allen they probably would have beaten the C's in the first round this year.  And given their roster he fits in, while as mentioned Thomas and Hinrich are redundant (which would be fine if the salary number made more sense, but it doesn't for Hinrich and Thomas is due a raise in the near future).  You change their roles and their salaries make more sense for the role they would play with the C's.

[waltzero]

Come on the days when Ray Allen is a better player with more production than the combination of Hinrich and Thomas are gone.

So why do the Bulls make that deal?

[davemonsterband]

You need 3 stars to win a ring now, those guys are far from stars. Leave deals like that to rebuilding teams.

[Who]

Come on the days when Ray Allen is a better player with more production than the combination of Hinrich and Thomas are gone.

So why do the Bulls make that deal?

Cap space in 2010 -- they're looking to be far enough under the cap to offer someone (Bosh) a max contract that summer.

Chicago will either trade Kirk Hinrich or not resign Ben Gordon in order to make that happen ... and they want to sign Ben Gordon, so Kirk looks like the odd-man out so long as they get an acceptable deal with Gordon. It'll be interesting to see whether Deng and his overpaid contract enter this picture.

Tyrus Thomas' contract is up in 2010 and is due for an extension. He has a massive cap hold too, so they'll need to rescind their rights to him in order to have cap space. I think it's still unclear how highly they rate Thomas, but they're very likely waiving goodbye to him in 12 months time.

As for Ray, he's just a 2010 expiring contract who also happens to be a very good player who can help them win while they wait for their opportunity to build a legit contender.

[dlpin]

The rumors are that the bulls are shopping Hinrich and Thomas around to land a top PF, and not to get salary relief. In any case, why in the world would they trade Thomas to get cap relief if all they have to do is renounce his rights?

[Who]

The rumors are that the bulls are shopping Hinrich and Thomas around to land a top PF, and not to get salary relief.

The trade for a top PF is the exact same situation as signing one in 2010 ... just achieved in a different way. It's their first priority, irrelevant of how they do it.

If they can get Bosh now, they'll do it now. If they can't get that player now, they'll try to do it in 2010.

The rumors are that the bulls are shopping Hinrich and Thomas around to land a top PF, and not to get salary relief. In any case, why in the world would they trade Thomas to get cap relief if all they have to do is renounce his rights?

It's Hinrich who they need to trade in order to ensure enough cap space for 2010. Thomas is irrelevant from that point view.

Tyrus is the carrot to get Ray Allen, since Chicago needs to put more assets into the discussion, if Chicago did indeed want a Ray Allen. Because Kirk Hinrich by himself isn't good enough to bring a player of Ray's caliber back in a trade.

If Tyrus is leaving in 2010 anyway, his value to the Bulls is somewhat capped. That's why they may be willing to put him on the table. If Tyrus did have value to the Bulls post 2010, then Chicago would just trade Kirk for an expiring, and keep Tyrus since TT has more value than Ray because he'll be around long term.