NBA MVP

[LB3533]

Cleveland without Lebron doesn't win 40 games.

Both Chicago and Philly have more talented players than Big Z, Delonte and Mo Williams.

So if Chicago with Ben Gordon and their new players in Brad Miller, John Salmons and Derek Rose can barely win 40 games and if Philly with Andre Miller and Iggy can barely win 40 games....there is no chance in hell a Cavs' team led by Big Z and Delonte West can win 40 games.

[KCattheStripe]

Cleveland without Lebron doesn't win 40 games.

Both Chicago and Philly have more talented players than Big Z, Delonte and Mo Williams.

So if Chicago with Ben Gordon and their new players in Brad Miller, John Salmons and Derek Rose can barely win 40 games and if Philly with Andre Miller and Iggy can barely win 40 games....there is no chance in hell a Cavs' team led by Big Z and Delonte West can win 40 games.

To be fair, the Bulls didn't get Miller and Salmons until more than halfway through the season. And Philly would have a better record than they do now if they hadn't started Brand at PF the first 15 games.

[StartOrien]

Cleveland without Lebron doesn't win 40 games.

Both Chicago and Philly have more talented players than Big Z, Delonte and Mo Williams.

So if Chicago with Ben Gordon and their new players in Brad Miller, John Salmons and Derek Rose can barely win 40 games and if Philly with Andre Miller and Iggy can barely win 40 games....there is no chance in hell a Cavs' team led by Big Z and Delonte West can win 40 games.

To be fair, the Bulls didn't get Miller and Salmons until more than halfway through the season. And Philly would have a better record than they do now if they hadn't started Brand at PF the first 15 games.

Still, without Lebron there's no way they're even as close to as good as the Charlotte Bobcats.

[KCattheStripe]

Cleveland without Lebron doesn't win 40 games.

Both Chicago and Philly have more talented players than Big Z, Delonte and Mo Williams.

So if Chicago with Ben Gordon and their new players in Brad Miller, John Salmons and Derek Rose can barely win 40 games and if Philly with Andre Miller and Iggy can barely win 40 games....there is no chance in hell a Cavs' team led by Big Z and Delonte West can win 40 games.

To be fair, the Bulls didn't get Miller and Salmons until more than halfway through the season. And Philly would have a better record than they do now if they hadn't started Brand at PF the first 15 games.

Still, without Lebron there's no way they're even as close to as good as the Charlotte Bobcats.

Way.

[StartOrien]

There's no way the difference between Mario Chalmers, Michael Beasely, Udonis Haslem and Jermaine O'Neil vs. Delonte West, Mo Williams, Ben Wallace and Zyraudus Ilgauskus is TWENTY SIX wins.

Sure there is, first off only one player on that list is an all star caliber player and that's Mo Williams. Secondly, Delonte is better than Chalmers, Ilgauskus is better than O'Neal, plus Cleveland is much deeper. That is a team that could win 40 games in the east.

This is going to have to be an agree to disagree thing. Because I don't think there's ANY chance that the Cavs win 40 games. If this was a Vegas bet, and I never bet, but I honestly would put half my bank account on it.

That's a gawdawful team.

I totally agree- the difference is certainly not 26 wins. That is a ridiculous amount. Furthermore, most people would have said before that Shawn Marion was a better player than Mo Williams. Steve Nash made Marion into a mid-level all-star, while Wade did nothing to help his cause and made him an average starter. Mo Williams went from an average starter to a borderline all-star AFTER he joined Lebron and the Cavs. Lebron clearly makes his teammates better. Delonte, Wally, Joe Smith and a hobbled Z just aren't that impressive anywhere else (as proven with Delonte and Wally with the Celtics).

This is also a great point: You can't look at a player who played with Wade and say "He's made him better." Every other player on this list has made his supporting cast significantly better.

[StartOrien]

Cleveland without Lebron doesn't win 40 games.

Both Chicago and Philly have more talented players than Big Z, Delonte and Mo Williams.

So if Chicago with Ben Gordon and their new players in Brad Miller, John Salmons and Derek Rose can barely win 40 games and if Philly with Andre Miller and Iggy can barely win 40 games....there is no chance in hell a Cavs' team led by Big Z and Delonte West can win 40 games.

To be fair, the Bulls didn't get Miller and Salmons until more than halfway through the season. And Philly would have a better record than they do now if they hadn't started Brand at PF the first 15 games.

Still, without Lebron there's no way they're even as close to as good as the Charlotte Bobcats.

Way.

I'm sorry, but that's absolutely absurd

[KCattheStripe]

There's no way the difference between Mario Chalmers, Michael Beasely, Udonis Haslem and Jermaine O'Neil vs. Delonte West, Mo Williams, Ben Wallace and Zyraudus Ilgauskus is TWENTY SIX wins.

Sure there is, first off only one player on that list is an all star caliber player and that's Mo Williams. Secondly, Delonte is better than Chalmers, Ilgauskus is better than O'Neal, plus Cleveland is much deeper. That is a team that could win 40 games in the east.

This is going to have to be an agree to disagree thing. Because I don't think there's ANY chance that the Cavs win 40 games. If this was a Vegas bet, and I never bet, but I honestly would put half my bank account on it.

That's a gawdawful team.

I totally agree- the difference is certainly not 26 wins. That is a ridiculous amount. Furthermore, most people would have said before that Shawn Marion was a better player than Mo Williams. Steve Nash made Marion into a mid-level all-star, while Wade did nothing to help his cause and made him an average starter. Mo Williams went from an average starter to a borderline all-star AFTER he joined Lebron and the Cavs. Lebron clearly makes his teammates better. Delonte, Wally, Joe Smith and a hobbled Z just aren't that impressive anywhere else (as proven with Delonte and Wally with the Celtics).

This is also a great point: You can't look at a player who played with Wade and say "He's made him better." Every other player on this list has made his supporting cast significantly better.

That's because the quality of players on each team is substantially better. Dwight Howard has made 3 all star caliber players better. LeBron has made 1 current and 3 former all stars , all with a significant playoff expereince, better. Chris Paul's team is worse than it was last year. Dwayne Wade has taken a rag tag group of young players whose 2nd best player is an up and down Jermaine O'Neal and gotten them into a position where they can go to the second round of the playoffs.

Shawn Marion was a better player than Mo Williams in D'Antoni's system. He's struggled in Toronto also. Thats not a detriment to Wade that Marion can't adjust from playing that absurdly uptempo style.

[acieEarl]

I'm not smoking anything, the Cavs without LBJ win 40 ish games. The Heat without DWade are lucky to win 10. That to me is a no brainer.

i mentioned that in another today..james got mucho talent around him..wade really is alone

james got a center that can hit 15 footers?...nuff said

Lebron on the Heat would make alot of those bums look alot better. Lebron can score 12 points and have a great game by his defense, rebounding and passing. Hands down Lebron for MVP.

[KCattheStripe]

Cleveland without Lebron doesn't win 40 games.

Both Chicago and Philly have more talented players than Big Z, Delonte and Mo Williams.

So if Chicago with Ben Gordon and their new players in Brad Miller, John Salmons and Derek Rose can barely win 40 games and if Philly with Andre Miller and Iggy can barely win 40 games....there is no chance in hell a Cavs' team led by Big Z and Delonte West can win 40 games.

To be fair, the Bulls didn't get Miller and Salmons until more than halfway through the season. And Philly would have a better record than they do now if they hadn't started Brand at PF the first 15 games.

Still, without Lebron there's no way they're even as close to as good as the Charlotte Bobcats.

Way.

I'm sorry, but that's absolutely absurd

I'm sorry you don't give them that much credit. After all, the bunch of them kept Cleveland in the series last year when leBron was struggling. And that was without Mo Williams.

[KCattheStripe]

I'm not smoking anything, the Cavs without LBJ win 40 ish games. The Heat without DWade are lucky to win 10. That to me is a no brainer.

i mentioned that in another today..james got mucho talent around him..wade really is alone

james got a center that can hit 15 footers?...nuff said

Lebron on the Heat would make alot of those bums look alot better. Lebron can score 12 points and have a great game by his defense, rebounding and passing. Hands down Lebron for MVP.

Right, because DWade plays no defense and isn't averaging more assists than LeBron while passing to worse teammates. Rebounding I give you, but DWade averages more blocks a game.

[crownsy]

I'm not smoking anything, the Cavs without LBJ win 40 ish games. The Heat without DWade are lucky to win 10. That to me is a no brainer.

i mentioned that in another today..james got mucho talent around him..wade really is alone

james got a center that can hit 15 footers?...nuff said

Lebron on the Heat would make alot of those bums look alot better. Lebron can score 12 points and have a great game by his defense, rebounding and passing. Hands down Lebron for MVP.

wade already does that.

that said, i think its lebron this year, since he's leading the cavs at a record clip, but to act like D-wade is some scoring only guard who isnt a great passer and defender implies a sever lack of knowledge about the player.

[acieEarl]

I'm not smoking anything, the Cavs without LBJ win 40 ish games. The Heat without DWade are lucky to win 10. That to me is a no brainer.

i mentioned that in another today..james got mucho talent around him..wade really is alone

james got a center that can hit 15 footers?...nuff said

Lebron on the Heat would make alot of those bums look alot better. Lebron can score 12 points and have a great game by his defense, rebounding and passing. Hands down Lebron for MVP.

wade already does that.

that said, i think its lebron this year, since he's leading the cavs at a record clip, but to act like D-wade is some scoring only guard who isnt a great passer and defender implies a sever lack of knowledge about the player.

Don't get me wrong D-wade is the runner up for MVP but I wouldn't call him a great passer. Yes a great defender and scorer. Very similar to Jordan.

[Steve Weinman]

I also don't fully agree with the whole "imagine the heat without wade" argument. Ya, they'd be bad. But which of the aforementioned teams would be good? Yes, the Cavs supporting cast is better, but does the difference between talent make up for the 24 wins that separate the Cavs and the Heat? The Cavs are considered a great defensive team, but who on that team is good at playing defense besides LBJ (besides Ben Wallace when healthy)? Remember, it's easy to overrate a surrounding cast when the star is making the rest of the team that much better.

Finally, the simplest way I look at it is through "trade scenarios." If you traded Dwayne Wade straight up for any of the other MVP candidates, wouldn't in every scenario the Heat get better and the other team gets worse?
Again, he's nice, but he's not the MVP.

In addition to everything cordobes said, these are two very important points.  Thanks for bringing up the "trade" comment, SO.

Granted, the way the chatter goes sometimes, neither player should be eligible - Wade's team didn't win enough games, and LBJ's teammates were too good.

Oh, right.  That's ridiculous on both counts.

Taking each player off his team does nothing but reward the guy who plays with worse teammates.  They've been very close, and I believe they are 1-2 in the balloting, but LBJ offers more defensive versatility and, as cordobes notes, better scoring efficiency and boardwork.

-sw

As far as the trade question goes, the answer (with the possible exception of LeBron) is no, that team absolutely does not get better.

This is the danger of posting late at night while rushing to get off a public computer (my not-so-trusty ol' Macbook is at Apple right now) - I owe you an apology and clarification, KC.  I read a bit quickly on SO's post and didn't say exactly what I should have - which is that the trade idea as a concept, makes a lot of sense to me - but the place I would apply it here is with and only with LeBron.

I think you're absolutely right that I'm not moving Wade for any of the other candidates.  But I think the Heat at least consider moving 2009 Wade for 2009 James while I don't think Cleveland does it the other way around (this is, of course, only in our "no-strings-attached hypothetical, this-season-only" world).  I certainly buy that he's in the discussion and and made this a closer race than I would have expected. I just don't think he's the one this season.

Sorry for any lack of clarity earlier - I should have been more careful in my word choice there.

-sw

[Big Ticket]

I'm not smoking anything, the Cavs without LBJ win 40 ish games. The Heat without DWade are lucky to win 10. That to me is a no brainer.

The cavs without Lebron win 40 games? um thats not very realistic.

Dwade isnt even in the same league as Lebron, and is no more deserving of the MVP then Chris Paul.

If the Philedelphia 76ers can win 40 games, a defensive minded LeBron less Cleveland can too.

To me, the Cavs without LeBron are basically the Milwaukee Bucks, sans Redd, from the past several seasons... meaning bad. 

And I think there are hole in that logic.  It is infinitely easier to move from a 10-15 win team to a 40 win team than it is to move from a good 40 win team to an elite 65 win team.

[Tai]

I'm not smoking anything, the Cavs without LBJ win 40 ish games. The Heat without DWade are lucky to win 10. That to me is a no brainer.

I'm sure you know better than to think that has anything to do with who will actually win it, though. It's Lebron hands down, and it's hands down a useless award.

Someone may have beaten me to it in this topic (obviously haven't read the whole thing), but what the heck:

No kidding, I mean, Kobe won the MVP last year, what happened to him in the NBA Finals?