Anyone think Ray will get suspended?

[fairweatherfan]

Please point out to me where in either post I said the hit to the face was definitely intentional (or unintentional).  I'll give you a hint - it isn't there.  Pulling someone over your leg like that is classified as a "throw" in several martial arts - all I did was clarify what I meant by the word to distinguish it from actually picking a guy up off the ground.  Try again.

You don't need to explicitly state something - it is implied.

It's not a throw, it's not a toss. They locked arms and Ray fell down.

Try again.  

Yuh-huh.

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position." 

Have a good one.

[GroverTheClover]

Please point out to me where in either post I said the hit to the face was definitely intentional (or unintentional).  I'll give you a hint - it isn't there.  Pulling someone over your leg like that is classified as a "throw" in several martial arts - all I did was clarify what I meant by the word to distinguish it from actually picking a guy up off the ground.  Try again.

You don't need to explicitly state something - it is implied.

It's not a throw, it's not a toss. They locked arms and Ray fell down.

Try again.  

Really? How does one fall like that if they aren't being pulled down? See 1:24 in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyZowxARDCA&feature=related

I'll even provide some color commentary.

At 1:23, the two lock arms. At 1:25, Varejao clearly uses his hip and right leg as leverage as he turns with Ray's arm locked in. It strains credulity to say "Ray fell down."

[markketch]

You make it sound like guys are locking their arms into others and flinging opponents to the hardwood on every play which is ridiculous and you know it.

While Ray certainly didn't act reprehensible on that play, to decry his elbow as cheap and unprofessional while ignoring the equally blameworthy actions by Varejao is ludicrous when the evidence clearly shows him clamping down on Ray's arm and pulling him down.

So now he "flung" Ray to the floor?! Haha, ok.  Next it's going to be a "body slam", isn't it? You're still over-exaggerating what happened.

Again - this play was no more dangerous than Rajon Rondo and another Celtic defender trying to helplessly wrap up LeBron James running at full speed.  Are you guys crying that this was a dirty play as well? I mean, gosh, LeBron really could have been hurt!

[bleedinggreen34]

I guess I don't see what the big deal is either way.  Vareajo hardly flinched, either he doesn't have a pair (highly possible) or Ray didn't get him straight on.  Either way, both what Varajo and what Ray did were mildly dirty, but also just part of the game.  What Sideshow Bob was, in my mind, must worse, and more annoying.  

Let's put it this way, if someone locked my arm and threw me down while boxing me out, I'd be much more angry at them then if they elbowed my balls in retaliation for me locking their arm.

[markketch]

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position." 

Have a good one.

I love it when people try to pull the straw-man card, especially when they're defending a straw man argument in the first place...

[bleedinggreen34]

You make it sound like guys are locking their arms into others and flinging opponents to the hardwood on every play which is ridiculous and you know it.

While Ray certainly didn't act reprehensible on that play, to decry his elbow as cheap and unprofessional while ignoring the equally blameworthy actions by Varejao is ludicrous when the evidence clearly shows him clamping down on Ray's arm and pulling him down.

So now he "flung" Ray to the floor?! Haha, ok.  Next it's going to be a "body slam", isn't it? You're still over-exaggerating what happened.

Again - this play was no more dangerous than Rajon Rondo and another Celtic defender trying to helplessly wrap up LeBron James running at full speed.  Are you guys crying that this was a dirty play as well? I mean, gosh, LeBron really could have been hurt!

Its not at all comparable.  I can't think of an instance where I've seen wrapping a guy up on a break has led to an injury.  Locking arms can hyperextend, dislocate and otherwise f**k somebody up.

[crownsy]

not what hes talking about, watch the video.

the onyl reason ray, from his knees, is able to hit andy is because andy is standing over him. Ray doesn't have elastic elbows, the play was over, why was andy still standing over ray in elbow range 5-10 seconds later when ray picked himself up to his knees and tossed that elbow backwards?

answer: because he was being a punk ass after a scuffle under the basket and standing over ray.

None of this justifies ray's reaction of course. (although, i don't personally think it needs a justification. The fact this is a big deal, for either player, is another sign of the pussification of the NBA under stern, ive seen more heated play in pickup games.)

But to act like side show was an innocent bystander? please.

he tossed him to the ground and was gloating like a moron, its why he was ready to block that elbow, he expected ray to go after him.  

He was standing there to show the ref that it wasn't intentional.  It was not 5-10 seconds as you suggest. Was he supposed to turn around and run down the court? If he did that, everyone here would be calling Andy a p*ssy.

How is standing there gloating? He didn't jaw at him, he didn't step over him. He stood in the same position and Ray reacted poorly.

uh what?

since when do you stand over an opposing player to show it "wasen't intentional". way to project your feelings onto an action.

I for one have never hovered over a person to demenstrate that it "wasen't intentional" that i threw them to the ground.

and no, people wouldn't be calling him a coward if he ran off, they'd be saying it wasent intentional, sicne thats how people act when they don't know they've thrown a guy down. Why is it absurd for me to expect him to vacate the area and get back in the play?

The ball was side out. there's no reason for him to stand over the top of a prone man, what, do you think thats "good defense"?

[markketch]

Really? How does one fall like that if they aren't being pulled down? See 1:24 in the video.

That's funny - I never said he wasn't pulled down. I said he wasn't thrown, tossed, hipchecked, bodyslammed, flung, etc.

[markketch]

Its not at all comparable.  I can't think of an instance where I've seen wrapping a guy up on a break has led to an injury.  Locking arms can hyperextend, dislocate and otherwise f**k somebody up.

What?! So running full speed and having two guys grab at your arms, shoulders and waist isn't comparable to locking arms in a stationary position? You've never seen anyone get injured when they're grabbed or hit running at full speed? Dwyane Wade sure would like to talk to you.

If anything, grabbing at a guy who is moving is MORE dangerous than locking arms in a stationary position.

[markketch]

uh what?

since when do you stand over an opposing player to show it "wasen't intentional". way to project your feelings onto an action.

I for one have never hovered over a person to demenstrate that it "wasen't intentional" that i threw them to the ground.

and no, people wouldn't be calling him a coward if he ran off, they'd be saying it wasent intentional, sicne thats how people act when they don't know they've thrown a guy down. Why is it absurd for me to expect him to vacate the area and get back in the play?

The ball was side out. there's no reason for him to stand over the top of a prone man, what, do you think thats "good defense"?

He didn't stand over Ray Allen.  He stood in the exact spot the entire time. Ray fell in front, Andy left his hands up and didn't move to say "Hey, I didn't do anything."

Andy did not step over and stare down Ray Allen.  He stayed in the same exact position with his hands up.  When do people typically put their hands up? When they're not looking for trouble.

[celticmaestro]

This isn't the first punk move by Varejao and it wont be the last. So markketch, remove the glasses, step back and watch the video again.

One other thing I'll add is that if it was any other Celtic other than Ray, the elbow would have been harder and that stupid haired clown would have got exactly what his behaviour warrants.

[markketch]

This isn't the first punk move by Varejao and it wont be the last. So markketch, remove the glasses, step back and watch the video again.

One other thing I'll add is that if it was any other Celtic other than Ray, the elbow would have been harder and that stupid haired clown would have got exactly what his behaviour warrants.

Have I ever stated that it wasn't a stupid move by Andy? No, I have not.  I've simply stated it was overblown because Ray reacted poorly.

So maybe go back and read my posts again. Thanks.

[crownsy]

You make it sound like guys are locking their arms into others and flinging opponents to the hardwood on every play which is ridiculous and you know it.

While Ray certainly didn't act reprehensible on that play, to decry his elbow as cheap and unprofessional while ignoring the equally blameworthy actions by Varejao is ludicrous when the evidence clearly shows him clamping down on Ray's arm and pulling him down.

So now he "flung" Ray to the floor?! Haha, ok.  Next it's going to be a "body slam", isn't it? You're still over-exaggerating what happened.

Again - this play was no more dangerous than Rajon Rondo and another Celtic defender trying to helplessly wrap up LeBron James running at full speed.  Are you guys crying that this was a dirty play as well? I mean, gosh, LeBron really could have been hurt!

I find it hilarious that your accusing everyone of exaggerating what happened while you go overboard trying to differentiate between a throw and a toss and attirbute some new way of showing a play "wasen't intentioanl" that goes like this.

1. commit act that was unintentional
2. stand over the guy while he picks himself up for no reason while your team heads back on defense
3. be so surprised that he thinks your being a jackass with your move of standing over him and glowering that you are prepared to block  the elbow he throws back at you without looking.

turst me, standing over a dude you just threw to the ground is not a sign of respect and apology on any basektball court from grade school to the pro's. Its a jackass move, and it was answered by a jackass elbow.

Move on with your life, they both got caught up being stupid in the heat of the moment. If the NBA hadent become the "no contact" league under stern we wouldn't even be thinking twice about it. its not a big deal, worse goes on in pickup games for christsake.

[celticmaestro]

This isn't the first punk move by Varejao and it wont be the last. So markketch, remove the glasses, step back and watch the video again.

One other thing I'll add is that if it was any other Celtic other than Ray, the elbow would have been harder and that stupid haired clown would have got exactly what his behaviour warrants.

Have I ever stated that it wasn't a stupid move by Andy? No, I have not.  I've simply stated it was overblown because Ray reacted poorly.

So maybe go back and read my posts again. Thanks.

You're calling Ray a chump and saying Varejao "didn't do anything" - Ray's reaction was justified and understandable.

You're welcome.

[markketch]

You're calling Ray a chump and saying Varejao "didn't do anything" - Ray's reaction was justified and understandable.

You're welcome.

Did I say Andy didn't do anything? No - I said Andy stoood there with his hands up as to say "I didn't do anything".  There is a difference there, and you're failing to make that distinction.

Elbowing a player in the groin is never justified and understandable.