Author Topic: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more  (Read 20765 times)

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Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2009, 12:51:01 PM »

Offline cordobes

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I also don't understand the "while picking his dribble" as opposed to "after picking his dribble". To stop a dribble can't last longer than a fraction of a second (unless there's a fumble) - the player is either dribbling or not; there's a moment where he either just established a pivot or committed a carrying/palming violation. This is more difficult to assess when a player receives a pass when moving and one has to establish the moment where the player gained control, complete possession of the ball; but in a dribble, the ball is always under the control of the player - one just has to decide when has the ball stopped on his hand.

So, with that in mind, the way I see it, this play goes like this:
- James has his dribble stopped with the right foot in contact with the floor
- leaps off his right foot
- lands on left foot (establishes right as pivot)
- leaps off his left foot
- lands on his right foot (travel violation)
- jumps off his right foot and shoots, finally releasing the ball

I understand what LeBron James meant to do (as he frequently does it), the "crab dribble" has a jump-stop incorporated - he should have landed on both feet (count 2 in NBA jargon) after jumping off his right (count 1), then jump to shoot the ball. That wouldn't be a travel. But it was badly executed and he just kept jumping from foot to foot, so the referees were right on calling it.

In the NBA, a player is allowed 2 steps even without dribbling the ball.

A dribble = bounce the ball down and the ball comes back up

Dribbling = repeated bounces of the ball down

Picking up the dribble = no more bounces of the ball down

Also, IMO, the jump stop is a clear violation that wasn't allowed in the NBA when guys from Euro leagues came into the NBA (Dino Radja, Toni Kukoc). The jump stop was allowed in FIBA basketball back then, but wasn't allowed in the NBA.

If the NBA is going to allow the jump stop to be legal then the 3rd step should be legal as well.

Well, which NBA rule states that a player is allowed 2 steps even without dribbling the ball? Can you quote that rule? Because I can't find it. I know the travelling rule that talks about a "two-count rhythm" and I know how the NBA refs are supposed to interpret it, but I've never read that rule you're talking about.

Your definition of a dribble is also quite unusual. What's exactly the moment that, in your opinion, LeBron gathers the ball? Which is the foot he has in the floor - that would be his pivot foot by the letter of the high school/college rules? Because that would be the first count, see 10, XIV, b) 1. The following count would be when his left foot lands -  after that he can't go any further.

The NBA and the FIBA/NCAA rules are basically identical, with a few exceptions (the pivot foot on staggered stop, etc.). In fact, the current NBA rules are exactly what FIBA rules used to be when I was learning the game. The biggest differences is how NBA referees (do not) enforce the rules, especially the obligation to raise the pivot before starting a dribble and that they are told to benefit the offensive player in the case they have doubts - that's way player with excellent footwork and very quick can go away with some travel violations.

How is the jump-stop a violation of the rules? Of what rule, exactly? The jump-stop is and always was allowed everywhere. See rule 10, section XIV, e) - it specifically allows the jump-stop. 

The funny thing is that the NBA has the "two-count rhythm" thing pretty well explained in a DVD they distributed among their referees - I had the chance of watching it a couple of years ago - and now they're involved in this PR nightmare, when all they had to do would be to release those images and examples to the public.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 01:11:32 PM by cordobes »

Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2009, 01:18:37 PM »

Offline Schupac

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I guess none of us can, because I also saw 3 steps. 

And yes, I do understand what you are saying by when he picked up the dribble.  But it's very clear to me he took 3 steps without dribbling, and without continuing the act of dribbling.



Also, as to the argument that it's hard to call - That would have a lot more credibility if it was called consistently badly for all players.  But it isn't.  It's only called consistently badly for certain star players.

On the slow-mo replay viewpoint where Lebron is coming towards us, the viewers, we can clearly see he plants one foot down while his last dribble is going up into his hand and he then places his other hand to complete his dribble, he then proceeds to take another two steps and convert the layup.

On the slow-mo replay viewpoint from behind Lebron, where he is going away from the viewer towards the hoop (the same veiwpoint the ref had) it is a much tougher angle to see when Lebron actually clasps both hands on his last dribble and thus it appears he takes 3 steps.

I am not arguing the travel call in real time, the ref made the right call (in his mind and from his perspective), but the replay shows to me that Lebron took 2 steps after his last dribble.

I think we are disagreeing on when the ball still is being dribbled.  I agree with Cordobes.  I think after his first step shown in the Youtube video, the ball is no longer on it's way to the floor, nor is it on it's way back up from the floor.  It is being controlled by Lebron, that means he "picked up the dribble".  There was 1 step while he had the ball there, and 2 more after.  3 steps is a travel.

I just think you are being way too generous with saying the ball was still bouncing back up from the floor.

Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2009, 02:09:29 PM »

Online angryguy77

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I don't know if it's fair to single out LeBron James. He surely "benefits" from the situation, but it's not things where different to Dr. J or Michael Jordan, just like they aren't different to Wade or Kobe.

The problem with the travel call at this level is that, whichever the rule and the interpretation may be, it's a very difficult to detect with sureness a travel violation and call it. I think most of these efforts to clarify the issue will prove to be futile. The game is so fast that referees have to base their calls on instinct; the problem with this is that some players are so fluid and quick with their movements that they are able to get away with violations; others will look awkward executing the exact same movement and be called for it. Having a 4th ref exclusively calling travel violations maybe the only way of minimizing these mistakes, but I'm not sure how much the situation would improve.
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Tim Duncan ran with the ball in hand from the top of the fould line to the basket and no call was made. Hes not fast, he is not an easy player to miss doint that. I seriously might just say the hell with the nba if this goes through.
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Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2009, 02:54:18 PM »

Offline RAcker

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When KG travels by changing his pivot foot, call it. I have no problem with it.

When LeCrab does the waltz through the lane on the way to the basket, call it.

I have no green glasses on about this.  Traveling, as defined for more than a century, should be called...period.  Watch the guys with fundamentals (i.e. Nash, Kidd, Deron Williams and for big men Al Jefferson, Duncan, etc.) and you will see that there is no need for a rule review or any such nonsense. Just enforce the rule for everyone. The retards like LeCrab will just have to adjust to the actual rules of the game that pays him so well.

Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2009, 02:54:51 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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It's physically impossible for the messiah to travel any more than he already does.  He doesn't have to dribble to get anywhere on the court as it is now.

Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2009, 03:05:46 PM »

Offline LB3533

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Well, which NBA rule states that a player is allowed 2 steps even without dribbling the ball? Can you quote that rule?

I never actually said it was a rule. I just said it was allowed.

You've never seen a fast break where a player catches the ball on the break and jams it home or lays it in after taking two steps without taking a single dribble?

Or how about when Rondo catches a pass on the break and does his fake behind the back pass, while taking two steps and either a.) passes the ball or b.) puts up a shot?

Refs allow these steps and they also allow players to take a step after they have established a pivot in the post. (Sometimes they call it a travel, sometimes not.)

Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2009, 03:10:21 PM »

Offline LB3533

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When KG travels by changing his pivot foot, call it. I have no problem with it.

The majority of KG's travel calls are on his initial move to the hoop after he catches the ball in the post.

KG rarely dribbles first before he makes his move and thus called for a travel.

Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2009, 03:22:20 PM »

Offline LB3533

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I think we are disagreeing on when the ball still is being dribbled.  I agree with Cordobes.  I think after his first step shown in the Youtube video, the ball is no longer on it's way to the floor, nor is it on it's way back up from the floor.  It is being controlled by Lebron, that means he "picked up the dribble".  There was 1 step while he had the ball there, and 2 more after.  3 steps is a travel.

This is what I see in the clip:

Lebron's first step coincides his last dribble down.

Lebron's second step: the ball is already on it's way up and he plants his right foot on the floor before he has both hands on the ball.

That means to me he has completed his last dribble, he could easily dribble again if he chose to, it was up to him.

That last foot being planted shouldn't be considered part of the 2 steps that refs allow after the dribble has stopped.

The issue of "control" is also not relevant because a dribbler who is dribbling the ball technically has control of the ball but still hasn't picked up his dribble.

The issue I think the refs and the league are looking into is kinda like the NFL and their wide receivers and the issue of "control and completion of the catch".

I think the NBA is trying to look into the issue of the "crab dribble" and the "jump stop" as if it were used during the last instances of the dribble.

Do these "moves" occur after the dribble is over or are they happening or used during the last remnants of the last dribble?

In theory players could hop all over the court while maintaining their dribble and it wouldn't be considered a violation.

Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2009, 03:33:55 PM »

Offline LB3533

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-pPFk-CEVQ

At 4:30, Vlad Rad steals the ball and is on a breakaway by himself, seems like he took 3 steps, but he wasn't called for a violation.

The first step he took coincided with his last dribble and he was clasping the ball with both hands.

Steps 2 and 3 came after he secured both hands on the ball.

In real time, it's a travel in my eyes.

Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2009, 10:30:23 AM »

Offline cordobes

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I don't know if it's fair to single out LeBron James. He surely "benefits" from the situation, but it's not things where different to Dr. J or Michael Jordan, just like they aren't different to Wade or Kobe.

The problem with the travel call at this level is that, whichever the rule and the interpretation may be, it's a very difficult to detect with sureness a travel violation and call it. I think most of these efforts to clarify the issue will prove to be futile. The game is so fast that referees have to base their calls on instinct; the problem with this is that some players are so fluid and quick with their movements that they are able to get away with violations; others will look awkward executing the exact same movement and be called for it. Having a 4th ref exclusively calling travel violations maybe the only way of minimizing these mistakes, but I'm not sure how much the situation would improve.

Tim Duncan ran with the ball in hand from the top of the fould line to the basket and no call was made. Hes not fast, he is not an easy player to miss doint that. I seriously might just say the hell with the nba if this goes through.

Well, I don't know what particular play you are talking about, but of course officials make dumb mistakes. It happens all the time.

Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2009, 10:53:14 AM »

Offline cordobes

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Well, which NBA rule states that a player is allowed 2 steps even without dribbling the ball? Can you quote that rule?

I never actually said it was a rule. I just said it was allowed.

You've never seen a fast break where a player catches the ball on the break and jams it home or lays it in after taking two steps without taking a single dribble?

Or how about when Rondo catches a pass on the break and does his fake behind the back pass, while taking two steps and either a.) passes the ball or b.) puts up a shot?

Refs allow these steps and they also allow players to take a step after they have established a pivot in the post. (Sometimes they call it a travel, sometimes not.)

How is it allowed if it isn't a rule? The game has rules, refs don't have the discretionary power of making them up as the game goes.

I can't stress enough I don't like to argue about "steps" because I've found out that's a very confusing term. I think people are often talking about different things when they refer "steps" - a feeling reinforced by the fact that some people talk about "half-steps", something I can't figure what it can be.

Refs make mistakes all the time. NBA refs very rarely will make a call on a travel violation if a player doesn't get much benefit of it - say, if he has an open lane to the basket in a fastbreak and walks a bit to make a more powerful dun, or if he's bringing up the ball after the inbound pass and moves his pivot before releasing the ball, etc. I don't have much of a problem with it; it's always been that way, it's equal for everybody, it doesn't affect the game at all...

NBA refs generally only call travels when they're too egregious or when the player committing the violation takes advantage of it. They also have practices that violate the letter of the rule: e.g. by allowing players to lift his pivot before releasing the ball - but, again, that's the way it's always been, so I don't have much of a problem with this.

Most of the true mistakes they make are in good faith and a large majority come from situations where players catch passes on the run or catch their dribbles - it's very difficult to define the pivot foot (in the past I officiated a couple of 5x5 scrimmages with pro players - not competitive games and the players were very far from being at the NBA level - and I struggled with this, so I can only imagine how difficult it can be for those guys) or from jump-stops where players don't land on their both feet simultaneously. NBA refs are very liberal in these aspects, in close plays they generally let it go.

In this particular play from LeBron the violation was easy to spot, he basically galloped into the jump-stop and he clearly had his dribble picked when he had his right foot on the floor - so the refs had to call it.

Anyway, to sum it up: situations where the player doesn't gain advantage; situations where it's difficult for the refs to define the pivot foot or to see a badly executed jump-stop; and, of course, situations where they just miss it - plenty of travel violations that go uncalled.

Again, the NBA rules are identical to the NCAA rules and the travel violations are called more or less the same way - NBA refs just give the benefit of the doubt to the offensive player.

Quote
In theory players could hop all over the court while maintaining their dribble and it wouldn't be considered a violation.

Well, of course, as long as the player keep their dribble, there can't be a travel violation. That's in the rules.


PS - The VladRad dunk is an obvious travel, what's the doubt? In the NBA that kind of play (travelling before an open dunk) is very rarely called. But it's a travel and the same footwork in another situation would very probably be called.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 12:19:38 PM by cordobes »

Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2009, 12:21:24 PM »

Offline crownsy

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Quote
How is it allowed if it isn't a rule? The game has rules, refs don't have the discretionary power of making them up as the game goes.

I agree 100%, but the problem is it happens all the time it seems (or at least they are so out of touch they miss enough calls that it seem like they don't know the rules.)


My problem with the quality of NBA officating consistancy doesn't lie with the rules, it lies with those who are trusted to enforce them.


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Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2009, 11:50:05 PM »

Offline zerophase

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcFLrSTH6bc

is it me or is this new ad a showing of a clear travel?

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Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2009, 01:03:50 AM »

Offline RAcker

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcFLrSTH6bc

is it me or is this new ad a showing of a clear travel?
Yep, one two three and the refs are with me.

Re: The NBA wants Lebron to travel more
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2009, 01:11:55 AM »

Offline twinbree

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcFLrSTH6bc

is it me or is this new ad a showing of a clear travel?

Hmm I'm pretty sure its a crab dribble. After all I've never played the game a fact that bizarrely makes me unable to count to three so I'll just have to take Lebron's word for it.
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