The NBA wants Lebron to travel more

[Fox40Kid]

Maybe just switch to the old rock and jock MTV bball jam rules?

Didn't they have a ten point circle around half court?

[LB3533]

Hmm... does that mean that if I hold the basketball just with a single hand I can go coast-to-coast without dribbling it? That's great, I'll try that on my Sunday pick-up game and see what the guys say.

No you can't do that, but you also can't count the last foot Lebron planted down before he picked up his dribble as one of the "two steps" allowed.

In that youtube clip, how many steps did Lebron take after he picked up his dribble? (Not while he picked up his dribble, after.)

[kozlodoev]

In that youtube clip, how many steps did Lebron take after he picked up his dribble? (Not while he picked up his dribble, after.)

Three steps, and pretty clear ones too.

[LB3533]

In that youtube clip, how many steps did Lebron take after he picked up his dribble? (Not while he picked up his dribble, after.)

Three steps, and pretty clear ones too.

Guess people can't count/add.

[RAcker]

Henry Abbott sits down with Joe Borgia, Vice President of Referee Operations to discuss the issue. Among other things, they take a look at some of the infamous YouTube travels to analyze them. Regarding the crab dribble, Abbott writes:

"Watch the move, which is now famous, and you'll be convinced that, by the letter of the law, LeBron James certainly did travel. But it's closer than you might think. It all comes down to when James gathered the ball, because that's when the dribble stops.

Start and stop that video again and again. Try to find the exact moment when he stops dribbling by gathering the ball into his hands.

"He's gathering," says Borgia, "on the left foot." If James had gathered slightly later, though, with his left foot lifted off the floor, it would have been different. Then he'd have been a guy gathering on his right foot, and taking the two steps that players have long been getting from NBA referees. It's not allowed by the NBA rulebook, but it has long been allowed by NBA referees. "Another three feet, another half-step," says Borgia, "and it's legal."

Listen to LeBron James, though, and he's just sure that he only took two steps. Borgia agrees that James has likely done this move before without having it called. But in those other instance, Borgia suggests, James has gathered the ball slightly later, after that trailing leg was off the floor. Then he could take two steps to the hoop."


The actual move itself is closer to being legit than you think. It's all depedent upon timing, which is ridiculously hard to catch properly at real speed.

Law have mercy. Count this...Celtics in 6 regardless of who has home court.

[Schupac]

In that youtube clip, how many steps did Lebron take after he picked up his dribble? (Not while he picked up his dribble, after.)

Three steps, and pretty clear ones too.

Guess people can't count/add.

I guess none of us can, because I also saw 3 steps. 

And yes, I do understand what you are saying by when he picked up the dribble.  But it's very clear to me he took 3 steps without dribbling, and without continuing the act of dribbling.



Also, as to the argument that it's hard to call - That would have a lot more credibility if it was called consistently badly for all players.  But it isn't.  It's only called consistently badly for certain star players.

[kenmaine]

This is whu only my love of the celtics keeps me with the NBA.

In other sports, while obviously, i like the team i root for the most, i can enjoy a game between two teams playing at a high level.

rarley can i do this with the NBA, because it has become more circus and star pandering than actual sport.

Great point. I guess I'm a typical "homer" or provincial Boston fan, but it's tough for me to watch a non-Celtic game. Even when I'm neutral, I get annoyed at the obvious favoritism by the refs toward certain players. In the past I've wasted time watching the Kings get screwed by the refs, and watching the Suns get screwed by the refs(and NBA office), and this year it's apparently going to be any opponent of the Cavs being screwed.
 IMO, the greatest example of all time is Shaq- a 400 lb. giant just turning and knocking defenders out of his way and 95% of the time getting the call in his favor. After a few years of that nonsense, it became sickening to watch. If I want football, I'll watch the NFL.
Overall though, I really don't see much difference in how they call traveling over the years. Superstars always get the breaks, that's just the way it is, although changing one of the three or four most basic rules of the game just to benefit one player seems a bit much.

[KungPoweChicken]

If it is so difficult for the naked eye of some of the referees to see the traveling that goes on than perhaps the NBA should make some of the 55 and older crowd that referee some of their games go because perhaps their reflexes aren't nearly as adept as they once were and a younger eye might be able to see it better.


http://phillyref.com/basketball/nbarefs/nbarefs.html

Was that the longest sentence in Celticsblog history?

[nickagneta]

If it is so difficult for the naked eye of some of the referees to see the traveling that goes on than perhaps the NBA should make some of the 55 and older crowd that referee some of their games go because perhaps their reflexes aren't nearly as adept as they once were and a younger eye might be able to see it better.


http://phillyref.com/basketball/nbarefs/nbarefs.html

I'm sorry, I didn't know that proper sentence structure, syntax, and grammar was a prerequisite of posting here at CB.


Was that the longest sentence in Celticsblog history?

[zerophase]

...the nba is just ridiculous.

[Fafnir]

If it is so difficult for the naked eye of some of the referees to see the traveling that goes on than perhaps the NBA should make some of the 55 and older crowd that referee some of their games go because perhaps their reflexes aren't nearly as adept as they once were and a younger eye might be able to see it better.


http://phillyref.com/basketball/nbarefs/nbarefs.html

Was that the longest sentence in Celticsblog history?

I'm sorry, I didn't know that proper sentence structure, syntax, and grammar was a prerequisite of posting here at CB.

Obviously it is not required, but proper sentences and paragraphs are always appreciated!

[cordobes]

Hmm... does that mean that if I hold the basketball just with a single hand I can go coast-to-coast without dribbling it? That's great, I'll try that on my Sunday pick-up game and see what the guys say.

No you can't do that, but you also can't count the last foot Lebron planted down before he picked up his dribble as one of the "two steps" allowed.

In that youtube clip, how many steps did Lebron take after he picked up his dribble? (Not while he picked up his dribble, after.)

IMO, thinking in terms of steps can be very confusing; it's all about the pivot foot. No rules book ever makes reference to 2 or 3 steps. I also don't understand the "while picking his dribble" as opposed to "after picking his dribble". To stop a dribble can't last longer than a fraction of a second (unless there's a fumble) - the player is either dribbling or not; there's a moment where he either just established a pivot or committed a carrying/palming violation. This is more difficult to assess when a player receives a pass when moving and one has to establish the moment where the player gained control, complete possession of the ball; but in a dribble, the ball is always under the control of the player - one just has to decide when has the ball stopped on his hand.

So, with that in mind, the way I see it, this play goes like this:
- James has his dribble stopped with the right foot in contact with the floor
- leaps off his right foot
- lands on left foot (establishes right as pivot)
- leaps off his left foot
- lands on his right foot (travel violation)
- jumps off his right foot and shoots, finally releasing the ball

I understand what LeBron James meant to do (as he frequently does it), the "crab dribble" has a jump-stop incorporated - he should have landed on both feet (count 2 in NBA jargon) after jumping off his right (count 1), then jump to shoot the ball. That wouldn't be a travel. But it was badly executed and he just kept jumping from foot to foot, so the referees were right on calling it.

 

[LB3533]

I guess none of us can, because I also saw 3 steps. 

And yes, I do understand what you are saying by when he picked up the dribble.  But it's very clear to me he took 3 steps without dribbling, and without continuing the act of dribbling.



Also, as to the argument that it's hard to call - That would have a lot more credibility if it was called consistently badly for all players.  But it isn't.  It's only called consistently badly for certain star players.

On the slow-mo replay viewpoint where Lebron is coming towards us, the viewers, we can clearly see he plants one foot down while his last dribble is going up into his hand and he then places his other hand to complete his dribble, he then proceeds to take another two steps and convert the layup.

On the slow-mo replay viewpoint from behind Lebron, where he is going away from the viewer towards the hoop (the same veiwpoint the ref had) it is a much tougher angle to see when Lebron actually clasps both hands on his last dribble and thus it appears he takes 3 steps.

I am not arguing the travel call in real time, the ref made the right call (in his mind and from his perspective), but the replay shows to me that Lebron took 2 steps after his last dribble.

[LB3533]

I also don't understand the "while picking his dribble" as opposed to "after picking his dribble". To stop a dribble can't last longer than a fraction of a second (unless there's a fumble) - the player is either dribbling or not; there's a moment where he either just established a pivot or committed a carrying/palming violation. This is more difficult to assess when a player receives a pass when moving and one has to establish the moment where the player gained control, complete possession of the ball; but in a dribble, the ball is always under the control of the player - one just has to decide when has the ball stopped on his hand.

So, with that in mind, the way I see it, this play goes like this:
- James has his dribble stopped with the right foot in contact with the floor
- leaps off his right foot
- lands on left foot (establishes right as pivot)
- leaps off his left foot
- lands on his right foot (travel violation)
- jumps off his right foot and shoots, finally releasing the ball

I understand what LeBron James meant to do (as he frequently does it), the "crab dribble" has a jump-stop incorporated - he should have landed on both feet (count 2 in NBA jargon) after jumping off his right (count 1), then jump to shoot the ball. That wouldn't be a travel. But it was badly executed and he just kept jumping from foot to foot, so the referees were right on calling it.

In the NBA, a player is allowed 2 steps even without dribbling the ball.

A dribble = bounce the ball down and the ball comes back up

Dribbling = repeated bounces of the ball down

Picking up the dribble = no more bounces of the ball down

Also, IMO, the jump stop is a clear violation that wasn't allowed in the NBA when guys from Euro leagues came into the NBA (Dino Radja, Toni Kukoc). The jump stop was allowed in FIBA basketball back then, but wasn't allowed in the NBA.

If the NBA is going to allow the jump stop to be legal then the 3rd step should be legal as well.

[winsomme]

the biggest amount of poppycock in those notes asking us to re-watch the tape closely is the notion of "gathering the ball"...

he has the ball and he takes four steps. that's his move. and it's traveling. it's not a move.

but i am really frustrated that the league is buckling on this.

doesn't something like this make you worry that the forces are already trying to make this a Kobe -LeBron Final?

I mean, if they are going to actually change the rule so the guy can get his "move" back....