Author Topic: Deron Williams > Chris Paul  (Read 20303 times)

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Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2009, 12:12:35 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2009, 12:16:40 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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So what if Williams is bigger, stronger and tougher? These are qualities that help williams be ALMOST as good as Paul. Yes, if you could give 2 players the exact same speed, shot, skill, etc., but make one of them bigger and stronger, he would be a better player. However, Paul is better than Williams AFTER size is taken into account! Williams and Paul are NOT evenly skilled players with Williams' size tipping it in his favor; rather, Paul is a significantly more talented player while Williams' size and strength helps get him closer to Paul than he would be if the two were the same size as each other but still had their individual skillsets.

...

I'm basically saying that I don't view CP3's PG skillset that much higher than DWill's to make the difference between my chosen team being capable of winning a title or not, or basically enough to give up the size, defense and toughness that DWill has. He may well be "significantly more skilled," maybe he can dribble between his legs faster and make every pass behind his back with his eyes closed. Fantastic for him, I'll cede every point save that they are equal defenders.

But I'll still give up the 3 PPG and couple AST/REBs to know there isn't another PG in the league that can reliably dominate mine offensively. 8)


I just don't get this type of logic. It's a complete boggling of cause and effect.



It is NOT the case that Paul and Williams have equal skill sets.

It IS the case that the goal of basketball is to leave more points on the scoreboard than your opponent.

It IS the case that Williams is bigger and stronger than Paul.

It IS the case that, DESPITE this disadvantage, Paul puts more points, more assists, more rebounds and similar defense onto the floor in order to help his team win.

It IS the case that Paul's greater production in every facet of the game helps his team win more games than Williams' production does.



What you are doing is you are taking the end result (that Paul is just a bit more productive in every category), and, from there, claiming that Williams' size and gamestyle pushes him past Paul.

HOWEVER, the truth is that Paul is significantly more talented and skilled than Williams, and it is only Williams' skill that picks up his talent and makes his overall game even close to Paul's.



In other words, You are saying that Paul's game is a 95 out of a 100, while Williams' game is a 93, but that Williams' size and game bring his game to a 97 out of a hundred.

However, Williams' size advantage is already calculated into his production! In truth, Paul's "game" is a 95 out of a 100, while Williams' "game" is an 85 out of a hundred, but the fact that he can possess those skills at his size brings him up to a 93 out of a hundred.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2009, 12:55:08 AM »

Offline earl

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So what if Williams is bigger, stronger and tougher? These are qualities that help williams be ALMOST as good as Paul. Yes, if you could give 2 players the exact same speed, shot, skill, etc., but make one of them bigger and stronger, he would be a better player. However, Paul is better than Williams AFTER size is taken into account! Williams and Paul are NOT evenly skilled players with Williams' size tipping it in his favor; rather, Paul is a significantly more talented player while Williams' size and strength helps get him closer to Paul than he would be if the two were the same size as each other but still had their individual skillsets.

...

I'm basically saying that I don't view CP3's PG skillset that much higher than DWill's to make the difference between my chosen team being capable of winning a title or not, or basically enough to give up the size, defense and toughness that DWill has. He may well be "significantly more skilled," maybe he can dribble between his legs faster and make every pass behind his back with his eyes closed. Fantastic for him, I'll cede every point save that they are equal defenders.

But I'll still give up the 3 PPG and couple AST/REBs to know there isn't another PG in the league that can reliably dominate mine offensively. 8)

In other words, You are saying that Paul's game is a 95 out of a 100, while Williams' game is a 93, but that Williams' size and game bring his game to a 97 out of a hundred.

However, Williams' size advantage is already calculated into his production! In truth, Paul's "game" is a 95 out of a 100, while Williams' "game" is an 85 out of a hundred, but the fact that he can possess those skills at his size brings him up to a 93 out of a hundred.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I am disagreeing with your assessment completely that they are similar defensively.

CP3 is the better player on your scale, and he's more productive in every category (marginally, but more productive nonetheless).

CP3 is dominated offensively by certain other PGs in the league where Deron is not. In other words, I think that if I'm building a championship team and have to factor in matchups around the league, CP3 is a potential liability on defense where Deron is not, or less likely so (enough to offset the offensive production IMO).

Perhaps I shouldn't have referenced his size/toughness specifically, I just personally view that as a reason why he is more solid defensively. I hope that clears that up, I'm not going to belabor the point if you continue trying to convince me I'm saying something else. :P

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2009, 01:32:35 AM »

Offline Atzar

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I'd take Williams over Paul.  He's bigger and stronger so he can defend 2's in a pinch, and I don't think he really gives up much speed to Paul either.  They are comparable passers in the half court offense, in my opinion.  Chris Paul is better going to the hoop, while DWill is a better shooter.  Chris Paul may be a bit better at drawing fouls and is definitely better at getting in the passing lanes for steals.

Overall, I'd take Williams by a thread.  If Chris Paul was put in a running offense, though, I'd take Paul, and it wouldn't really be close.  I have no idea why that team doesn't run more.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2009, 02:05:20 AM »

Offline goCeltics

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This is silly, CP3 is the player i take in this league after bron, bron.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2009, 02:10:47 AM »

Offline ToppersBsktball10

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pretty much man.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2009, 02:16:24 AM »

Offline Sweet17

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CP3 might be MVP. Wade is better then Lebron.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2009, 10:10:50 AM »

Offline BrickJames

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Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2009, 10:14:24 AM »

Offline ManUp

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Deron Williams is to Chris Paul, what Tracy McGrady was to Kobe Bryant


Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2009, 10:29:03 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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Deron Williams is to Chris Paul, what Tracy McGrady was to Kobe Bryant



well said.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2009, 11:42:50 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Deron Williams is to Chris Paul, what Tracy McGrady was to Kobe Bryant


You mean a better player until injuries sapped his athleticism and defensive ability?

People forget just how good Tracy was until he hurt his back. We Celtics fans should be able to appreciate how badly back injuries can impact a player.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2009, 11:44:51 AM »

Offline dark_lord

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its not even close...

which is why I suspect you didn't even attempt to make an argument.

exactly!

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2009, 03:28:14 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Just look at their defensive pers.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08NOH1.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0809/08UTA1.HTM#bypos



Almost the exact same. 

Offensively, Paul is clearly better.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2009, 10:22:01 AM »

Offline earl

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Deron Williams is to Chris Paul, what Tracy McGrady was to Kobe Bryant

That's interesting man, I honestly don't get it. I look at it as Deron Williams is to Chris Paul as San Antonio is to Phoenix.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2009, 11:01:34 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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Deron Williams is to Chris Paul, what Tracy McGrady was to Kobe Bryant

That's interesting man, I honestly don't get it. I look at it as Deron Williams is to Chris Paul as San Antonio is to Phoenix.


SKill wise, I'd say it's like Carmelo compared to Lebron. Similar hype and expectation, both becoming extremely good players, but Lebron (and Paul) entering the discussion for best in the game while Williams and Anthony settle into the franchise player category.