Author Topic: Deron Williams > Chris Paul  (Read 20219 times)

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Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2009, 07:44:44 PM »

Offline rondo987

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Bah, I am going for it:

1. Rondo

2. CP3

3. Deron

4-99999. Everyone else

haha yes I love it! Rondo, best Point Guard in the LEAGUE!

but no really chris paul is better.
"Life has so many hurdles. Some of them I've hopped over, and some of them I've tripped over. The key is to get back up and finish the race."

-Paul Pierce-

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2009, 07:55:37 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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I think Chris Paul is better.... but the gap between the two is A LOT smaller than people generally realize, in my opinion.

I like this assessment a lot.  Good stuff, BT.

-sw


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Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2009, 07:56:18 PM »

Offline td450

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The interesting thing about this is that both guys are still young and are still improving. This could change more than once in the next few years. If you go by how they play head to head, Williams clearly has has outplayed Paul so far.

Paul has been playing at a very high level the whole year, and people just assumed he'd become the best PG in the league. Williams worked back from an injury and has been progressing each month of the season.

In Feb, Williams was .512% FG 23.2 pts, 10.9 AST. I think he may have caught up.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2009, 08:03:28 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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A team in the NBA only needs a solid point guard to win a championship. There is little need for having a great player at the point. Here's my reasoning, Name me a team that won the championship that had a point guard as its best player. You have to go back to Isiah's Pistons. Having point guards who take a lot of shots and dribble the air out of the ball doesn't work. All you need to win is a John Paxson, Kenny Smith, Ron Harper, Avery Johnson, Derek Fisher, Jay Williams, or Rajon Rondo. The only all star level talent point guard who won recently was Tony Parker, and he was no where near being the best player on his team. There are other franshise players who are bigger, stronger, and faster than Chris Paul. Thus, they play the game more efficiently. These are the guys you want to build your team around.

Two points off of this:

1. There are exactly 2 players playing more efficiently than Paul. Wade and James. That's it. Of course this only speaks to offense, but every professional writer I read has a very high opinion of Paul's defense at the 1 spot.

2. Basketball is a weird sport in that a team's success rests disproportionately upon the best players in the game; rarely does s team win without a superstar player. This shrinks the sample size of available possitions to choose from on championship teams. In other words, unlike baseball or football, a guy like jordan can step in and win 6 titles; does that mean that having the MVP shooting guard is important or does it mean that the best player in the NBA happened to be a shooting guard?

Quick look:
Year  Best Player Position
80    1 or 5
81       3
82      1
83       5
84       3
85       1
86       3
87       1
88       1
89       1
90       1
91       2
92       2
93       2
94       5
95       5
96       2
97       2
98       2
99       4
00       5
01       5
02       5
03       4
04       1
05       4
06       2
07       4
08       4

This was just real quick thinking about who was the best player on each championship teams since 1980. Here's the breakdown:

PG 7 or 8 *
SG 7
SF 3
PF 5
C  7 or 6

*Tough to choose Magic or Kareem for the best player on the '80s lakers squad. He was Finals MVP so I went with that as the tie-breaker. Additionally, I think Chauncey was the best player on the Pistons' team in '04.


So in the sample size since 1980, I don't think that you can conclude at which position it is most important to have your best player; seems pretty random to me, with a few superstars (Magic, Bird, Duncan, Jordan) being more important than the actual position that they play.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2009, 11:28:14 PM »

Offline Who

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Am I in the minority here?
Yes, you're in the minority on this subject matter, but I think you're 100% correct. Deron Williams is the superior player.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2009, 11:34:59 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Am I in the minority here?
Yes, you're in the minority on this subject matter, but I think you're 100% correct. Deron Williams is the superior player.
I think it is really close, but CP3 is better.

I like Deron's game more though. Paul dribbles around like Allen Iverson too much for my liking.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2009, 11:41:39 PM »

Offline KungPoweChicken

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A team in the NBA only needs a solid point guard to win a championship. There is little need for having a great player at the point. Here's my reasoning, Name me a team that won the championship that had a point guard as its best player. You have to go back to Isiah's Pistons. Having point guards who take a lot of shots and dribble the air out of the ball doesn't work. All you need to win is a John Paxson, Kenny Smith, Ron Harper, Avery Johnson, Derek Fisher, Jay Williams, or Rajon Rondo. The only all star level talent point guard who won recently was Tony Parker, and he was no where near being the best player on his team. There are other franshise players who are bigger, stronger, and faster than Chris Paul. Thus, they play the game more efficiently. These are the guys you want to build your team around.

Two points off of this:

1. There are exactly 2 players playing more efficiently than Paul. Wade and James. That's it. Of course this only speaks to offense, but every professional writer I read has a very high opinion of Paul's defense at the 1 spot.

2. Basketball is a weird sport in that a team's success rests disproportionately upon the best players in the game; rarely does s team win without a superstar player. This shrinks the sample size of available possitions to choose from on championship teams. In other words, unlike baseball or football, a guy like jordan can step in and win 6 titles; does that mean that having the MVP shooting guard is important or does it mean that the best player in the NBA happened to be a shooting guard?

Quick look:
Year  Best Player Position
80    1 or 5
81       3
82      1
83       5
84       3
85       1
86       3
87       1
88       1
89       1
90       1
91       2
92       2
93       2
94       5
95       5
96       2
97       2
98       2
99       4
00       5
01       5
02       5
03       4
04       1
05       4
06       2
07       4
08       4

This was just real quick thinking about who was the best player on each championship teams since 1980. Here's the breakdown:

PG 7 or 8 *
SG 7
SF 3
PF 5
C  7 or 6

*Tough to choose Magic or Kareem for the best player on the '80s lakers squad. He was Finals MVP so I went with that as the tie-breaker. Additionally, I think Chauncey was the best player on the Pistons' team in '04.


So in the sample size since 1980, I don't think that you can conclude at which position it is most important to have your best player; seems pretty random to me, with a few superstars (Magic, Bird, Duncan, Jordan) being more important than the actual position that they play.


Yeah, but the game has really changed since the early eighties. Excluding Chauncey, Don't you think it speaks volumes that there has been only one point guard who was the clear cut best player on a championship team in twenty years? I don't think it is a coincidence, and I think picking position is important. Look at the teams who have recently failed who had point guards as their best players. To my memory Gary Payton failed once, Jason Kidd failed twice, and Iverson failed as well. Also, you could make the argument that Stockton failed twice.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 11:53:55 PM by KungPoweChicken »

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2009, 11:45:49 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Am I in the minority here?
Yes, you're in the minority on this subject matter, but I think you're 100% correct. Deron Williams is the superior player.
I think it is really close, but CP3 is better.

I like Deron's game more though. Paul dribbles around like Allen Iverson too much for my liking.

For mine too. That's why I prefer Williams. Maybe Paul is more "talented" in abstract, but if I were a Coach or GM, I'd rather have Williams. Chris Paul needs a certain kind of players surrounding him and everybody to play off him, Deron offers more versatility in terms of what you want to do with the team.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2009, 11:49:25 PM »

Offline earl

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So what if Williams is bigger, stronger and tougher? These are qualities that help williams be ALMOST as good as Paul. Yes, if you could give 2 players the exact same speed, shot, skill, etc., but make one of them bigger and stronger, he would be a better player. However, Paul is better than Williams AFTER size is taken into account! Williams and Paul are NOT evenly skilled players with Williams' size tipping it in his favor; rather, Paul is a significantly more talented player while Williams' size and strength helps get him closer to Paul than he would be if the two were the same size as each other but still had their individual skillsets.

...

I'm basically saying that I don't view CP3's PG skillset that much higher than DWill's to make the difference between my chosen team being capable of winning a title or not, or basically enough to give up the size, defense and toughness that DWill has. He may well be "significantly more skilled," maybe he can dribble between his legs faster and make every pass behind his back with his eyes closed. Fantastic for him, I'll cede every point save that they are equal defenders.

But I'll still give up the 3 PPG and couple AST/REBs to know there isn't another PG in the league that can reliably dominate mine offensively. 8)

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2009, 11:53:17 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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So what if Williams is bigger, stronger and tougher? These are qualities that help williams be ALMOST as good as Paul. Yes, if you could give 2 players the exact same speed, shot, skill, etc., but make one of them bigger and stronger, he would be a better player. However, Paul is better than Williams AFTER size is taken into account! Williams and Paul are NOT evenly skilled players with Williams' size tipping it in his favor; rather, Paul is a significantly more talented player while Williams' size and strength helps get him closer to Paul than he would be if the two were the same size as each other but still had their individual skillsets.

...

I'm basically saying that I don't view CP3's PG skillset that much higher than DWill's to make the difference between my chosen team being capable of winning a title or not, or basically enough to give up the size, defense and toughness
Size and defense he does give up. Chris Paul is plenty tough though. He's a mean, crosses over into being dirty at times. Definitely the part of his game that I appreciate the most  ;).

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2009, 11:58:12 PM »

Offline earl

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So what if Williams is bigger, stronger and tougher? These are qualities that help williams be ALMOST as good as Paul. Yes, if you could give 2 players the exact same speed, shot, skill, etc., but make one of them bigger and stronger, he would be a better player. However, Paul is better than Williams AFTER size is taken into account! Williams and Paul are NOT evenly skilled players with Williams' size tipping it in his favor; rather, Paul is a significantly more talented player while Williams' size and strength helps get him closer to Paul than he would be if the two were the same size as each other but still had their individual skillsets.

...

I'm basically saying that I don't view CP3's PG skillset that much higher than DWill's to make the difference between my chosen team being capable of winning a title or not, or basically enough to give up the size, defense and toughness
Size and defense he does give up. Chris Paul is plenty tough though. He's a mean, crosses over into being dirty at times. Definitely the part of his game that I appreciate the most  ;).

If by "mean" you mean like that cocker spaniel mean where it circles around you yapping and lunging until you scissor kick it in the head and it runs away, then I agree; fair point. :P

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2009, 11:59:36 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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So what if Williams is bigger, stronger and tougher? These are qualities that help williams be ALMOST as good as Paul. Yes, if you could give 2 players the exact same speed, shot, skill, etc., but make one of them bigger and stronger, he would be a better player. However, Paul is better than Williams AFTER size is taken into account! Williams and Paul are NOT evenly skilled players with Williams' size tipping it in his favor; rather, Paul is a significantly more talented player while Williams' size and strength helps get him closer to Paul than he would be if the two were the same size as each other but still had their individual skillsets.

...

I'm basically saying that I don't view CP3's PG skillset that much higher than DWill's to make the difference between my chosen team being capable of winning a title or not, or basically enough to give up the size, defense and toughness
Size and defense he does give up. Chris Paul is plenty tough though. He's a mean, crosses over into being dirty at times. Definitely the part of his game that I appreciate the most  ;).

If by "mean" you mean like that cocker spaniel mean where it circles around you yapping and lunging until you scissor kick it in the head and it runs away, then I agree; fair point. :P
Shall I head to Youtube to find his several delivered blows to a *ahem* sensitive area of other players?

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2009, 12:05:01 AM »

Offline earl

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So what if Williams is bigger, stronger and tougher? These are qualities that help williams be ALMOST as good as Paul. Yes, if you could give 2 players the exact same speed, shot, skill, etc., but make one of them bigger and stronger, he would be a better player. However, Paul is better than Williams AFTER size is taken into account! Williams and Paul are NOT evenly skilled players with Williams' size tipping it in his favor; rather, Paul is a significantly more talented player while Williams' size and strength helps get him closer to Paul than he would be if the two were the same size as each other but still had their individual skillsets.

...

I'm basically saying that I don't view CP3's PG skillset that much higher than DWill's to make the difference between my chosen team being capable of winning a title or not, or basically enough to give up the size, defense and toughness
Size and defense he does give up. Chris Paul is plenty tough though. He's a mean, crosses over into being dirty at times. Definitely the part of his game that I appreciate the most  ;).

If by "mean" you mean like that cocker spaniel mean where it circles around you yapping and lunging until you scissor kick it in the head and it runs away, then I agree; fair point. :P
Shall I head to Youtube to find his several delivered blows to a *ahem* sensitive area of other players?

I think that kind of makes my point. Pick a fight with Deron and pick a fight with a random woman, whose going to kick you in the nuts first?

BTW, all points are hypothetical here. I do not condone scissor kicking cocker spaniels or picking fights with women. :P

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2009, 12:06:37 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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So what if Williams is bigger, stronger and tougher? These are qualities that help williams be ALMOST as good as Paul. Yes, if you could give 2 players the exact same speed, shot, skill, etc., but make one of them bigger and stronger, he would be a better player. However, Paul is better than Williams AFTER size is taken into account! Williams and Paul are NOT evenly skilled players with Williams' size tipping it in his favor; rather, Paul is a significantly more talented player while Williams' size and strength helps get him closer to Paul than he would be if the two were the same size as each other but still had their individual skillsets.

...

I'm basically saying that I don't view CP3's PG skillset that much higher than DWill's to make the difference between my chosen team being capable of winning a title or not, or basically enough to give up the size, defense and toughness
Size and defense he does give up. Chris Paul is plenty tough though. He's a mean, crosses over into being dirty at times. Definitely the part of his game that I appreciate the most  ;).

If by "mean" you mean like that cocker spaniel mean where it circles around you yapping and lunging until you scissor kick it in the head and it runs away, then I agree; fair point. :P
Shall I head to Youtube to find his several delivered blows to a *ahem* sensitive area of other players?

I think that kind of makes my point. Pick a fight with Deron and pick a fight with a random woman, whose going to kick you in the nuts first?

BTW, all points are hypothetical here. I do not condone scissor kicking cocker spaniels or picking fights with women. :P
I once saw Roy Hobbs scissor kick Angela Lansbury.

Re: Deron Williams > Chris Paul
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2009, 12:08:22 AM »

Offline earl

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So what if Williams is bigger, stronger and tougher? These are qualities that help williams be ALMOST as good as Paul. Yes, if you could give 2 players the exact same speed, shot, skill, etc., but make one of them bigger and stronger, he would be a better player. However, Paul is better than Williams AFTER size is taken into account! Williams and Paul are NOT evenly skilled players with Williams' size tipping it in his favor; rather, Paul is a significantly more talented player while Williams' size and strength helps get him closer to Paul than he would be if the two were the same size as each other but still had their individual skillsets.

...

I'm basically saying that I don't view CP3's PG skillset that much higher than DWill's to make the difference between my chosen team being capable of winning a title or not, or basically enough to give up the size, defense and toughness
Size and defense he does give up. Chris Paul is plenty tough though. He's a mean, crosses over into being dirty at times. Definitely the part of his game that I appreciate the most  ;).

If by "mean" you mean like that cocker spaniel mean where it circles around you yapping and lunging until you scissor kick it in the head and it runs away, then I agree; fair point. :P
Shall I head to Youtube to find his several delivered blows to a *ahem* sensitive area of other players?

I think that kind of makes my point. Pick a fight with Deron and pick a fight with a random woman, whose going to kick you in the nuts first?

BTW, all points are hypothetical here. I do not condone scissor kicking cocker spaniels or picking fights with women. :P
I once saw Roy Hobbs scissor kick Angela Lansbury.

Now THAT is mean. TP. :)