Bigman Debate

[billysan]

We have two of the better starting bigs in the league in Perk and KG. From the bench we usually see Powe or Davis first followed by Scalabrine depending on matchups. We all know POB isnt getting much burn.

Not really a terrifying group off the bench, but not too bad either when compared to the rest of the league depth wise. I contend that while we would all like to add a Joe Smith type player for bigman depth before the deadline, we may be just fine without one.

Example: The Spurs are doing just fine with Matt Bonner starting alongside Timmy and Kurt Thomas followed by Oberto coming off the bench. Does anyone really think those four are better than our Bigs?

Example: The Lakers start Gasol (and sometimes Bynum)and whoever, with Odom as the primary backup.

Example: Detroit starts Sheed and Amir Johnson, bring MacDyess and Maxiell off the bench.

I could go on listing Cleveland, Atlanta and others, but I just dont see a huge amount of advantage (if any) for the opposition in terms of depth. If we follow the Spurs model for example, using Brian Scalabrine (Not as a starter but off the bench) like they use Matt Bonner, then we still have Perk, Powe and Davis. Not bad IMO.

[wdleehi]

Size off the bench.  That's the difference. 


Powe and Davis are both short for PF, but are needed to guard big men that can turn and shoot over them.  (Gasol, Big Z, Duncan)


If one of them were replaced by an equal talent that was taller such that they could alter the other teams big man shot, the Celtics would have a stronger bench.


It is not about lack of talent, it is about lack of length off the bench.

[billysan]

Size off the bench.  That's the difference. 


Powe and Davis are both short for PF, but are needed to guard big men that can turn and shoot over them.  (Gasol, Big Z, Duncan)
If one of them were replaced by an equal talent that was taller such that they could alter the other teams big man shot, the Celtics would have a stronger bench.


It is not about lack of talent, it is about lack of length off the bench.

This is really a simple answer for me. When any of these three is in the game, they need to be covered by the 'long big' we do have, KG. When they rest, he rests under normal circumstances. Perk has also done an adequate job on each of these guys in the past, although I would not want to have him play 30 mpg on one of them.

I am talking more about matching up bigs 'bench to bench', but we have seen that Scalabrine, Powe and Davis have had success against these three for short stretches as well.

[wdleehi]

Both Perk and KG can cover them, but teams need someone on the bench with length as well.


There is going to be time when both are on the bench (whether through the normal rotation, foul trouble or injuries) and the lack of height on the bench can hurt the Celtics against the top teams.

[jdub1660]

The other issue along with length, comes offense. Our short and stubby bigs off the bench also have a hard time putting up points against the longer,stronger, more efficient bench bigs - Bonner, McDyess, Varaejo. So when our bench has issues on both sides of the ball, the starters have to come in and play catch up. I've noticed this in every single game I've watched(except when Dallas was in Boston) The wear and tear of the game really hurts our Big 3 even more when every game they play is a 48+ minute game of catchup. Our bench needs an upgrade in length and offense of some sort. What about DJ Mbenga?

[CoachBo]

Size off the bench.  That's the difference. 


Powe and Davis are both short for PF, but are needed to guard big men that can turn and shoot over them.  (Gasol, Big Z, Duncan)


If one of them were replaced by an equal talent that was taller such that they could alter the other teams big man shot, the Celtics would have a stronger bench.


It is not about lack of talent, it is about lack of length off the bench.

Precisely. Lack of bench length will be a fatal problem in the playoffs.

[celticmaestro]

Big Baby is a waste of space. Antoine Walker would be an upgrade.

We desperately need size. Pau Gasol is a very skilled offensive player and other than KG and Perk we've got no one who can cover him.

[Snakehead]

Retreading old ground here but the problem is Powe and Big Baby are the same player in a lot of ways.  I could see people going either way I guess but I don't like how Big Baby seems to not know his role.  Every once in a while this season he has a great game, like the Orlando game, but mostly he's just taking bad jumpshots, sometimes on crucial possessions.

If Rondo could shoot a jumper it'd solve a lot of problems.  There's too many guys who can't shoot for the C's on the floor at the same time at moments and they need a big who can shoot.

[wdleehi]

Retreading old ground here but the problem is Powe and Big Baby are the same player in a lot of ways.  I could see people going either way I guess but I don't like how Big Baby seems to not know his role.  Every once in a while this season he has a great game, like the Orlando game, but mostly he's just taking bad jumpshots, sometimes on crucial possessions.

If Rondo could shoot a jumper it'd solve a lot of problems.  There's too many guys who can't shoot for the C's on the floor at the same time at moments and they need a big who can shoot.

I don't blame him for the jumpshots.  That's what they are asking him to do on offense.

[Snakehead]

Retreading old ground here but the problem is Powe and Big Baby are the same player in a lot of ways.  I could see people going either way I guess but I don't like how Big Baby seems to not know his role.  Every once in a while this season he has a great game, like the Orlando game, but mostly he's just taking bad jumpshots, sometimes on crucial possessions.

If Rondo could shoot a jumper it'd solve a lot of problems.  There's too many guys who can't shoot for the C's on the floor at the same time at moments and they need a big who can shoot.

I don't blame him for the jumpshots.  That's what they are asking him to do on offense.

I think he's doing what it seems like he should do, because sometimes he can hit a few jumpers and because he's wide open, but do you think Doc Rivers schemes for Big Baby to get open shots?  If he does I'm not that sure of him as a coach.  I forget which game it was but in a recent game (maybe the Spurs?) Big Baby took a few crucial shots in the closing moments of the game too early in the shot clock that he had no business taking.  If you have Pierce and KG and Ray on your team they take the shots.  Either it's a problem with Big Baby or with Doc knowing what Big Baby should and should not be doing.

[wdleehi]

Retreading old ground here but the problem is Powe and Big Baby are the same player in a lot of ways.  I could see people going either way I guess but I don't like how Big Baby seems to not know his role.  Every once in a while this season he has a great game, like the Orlando game, but mostly he's just taking bad jumpshots, sometimes on crucial possessions.

If Rondo could shoot a jumper it'd solve a lot of problems.  There's too many guys who can't shoot for the C's on the floor at the same time at moments and they need a big who can shoot.

I don't blame him for the jumpshots.  That's what they are asking him to do on offense.

I think he's doing what it seems like he should do, because sometimes he can hit a few jumpers and because he's wide open, but do you think Doc Rivers schemes for Big Baby to get open shots?  If he does I'm not that sure of him as a coach.  I forget which game it was but in a recent game (maybe the Spurs?) Big Baby took a few crucial shots in the closing moments of the game too early in the shot clock that he had no business taking.  If you have Pierce and KG and Ray on your team they take the shots.  Either it's a problem with Big Baby or with Doc knowing what Big Baby should and should not be doing.

They have said they want him to take those open jumpshots. 

[Bankshot]

Retreading old ground here but the problem is Powe and Big Baby are the same player in a lot of ways.  I could see people going either way I guess but I don't like how Big Baby seems to not know his role.  Every once in a while this season he has a great game, like the Orlando game, but mostly he's just taking bad jumpshots, sometimes on crucial possessions.

If Rondo could shoot a jumper it'd solve a lot of problems.  There's too many guys who can't shoot for the C's on the floor at the same time at moments and they need a big who can shoot.

I don't blame him for the jumpshots.  That's what they are asking him to do on offense.

I think he's doing what it seems like he should do, because sometimes he can hit a few jumpers and because he's wide open, but do you think Doc Rivers schemes for Big Baby to get open shots?  If he does I'm not that sure of him as a coach.  I forget which game it was but in a recent game (maybe the Spurs?) Big Baby took a few crucial shots in the closing moments of the game too early in the shot clock that he had no business taking.  If you have Pierce and KG and Ray on your team they take the shots.  Either it's a problem with Big Baby or with Doc knowing what Big Baby should and should not be doing.

It's the other team that is scheming to leave him open and he should take those shots when open, which is what the Celtics want him to do.  I bet you don't complain when he makes them.

[Snakehead]

Retreading old ground here but the problem is Powe and Big Baby are the same player in a lot of ways.  I could see people going either way I guess but I don't like how Big Baby seems to not know his role.  Every once in a while this season he has a great game, like the Orlando game, but mostly he's just taking bad jumpshots, sometimes on crucial possessions.

If Rondo could shoot a jumper it'd solve a lot of problems.  There's too many guys who can't shoot for the C's on the floor at the same time at moments and they need a big who can shoot.

I don't blame him for the jumpshots.  That's what they are asking him to do on offense.

I think he's doing what it seems like he should do, because sometimes he can hit a few jumpers and because he's wide open, but do you think Doc Rivers schemes for Big Baby to get open shots?  If he does I'm not that sure of him as a coach.  I forget which game it was but in a recent game (maybe the Spurs?) Big Baby took a few crucial shots in the closing moments of the game too early in the shot clock that he had no business taking.  If you have Pierce and KG and Ray on your team they take the shots.  Either it's a problem with Big Baby or with Doc knowing what Big Baby should and should not be doing.

They have said they want him to take those open jumpshots. 

He does not make enough jumpshots to justify that.  We really need a big who can hit those jumpers but trying to make Big Baby into that is not a great idea.  I don't know if he will ever be that guy.



And obviously I don't mind when he makes the shots.  If he is out there taking a decent number of shots he should make a good amount of them.  But he's shooting 32% on jumpshots this season.  Why should he be taking shots again?