Garnett's Head Games: childish tantrum or intentional vet move?

[Steve Weinman]

Fact is no one but KG can know exactly what was going on. All I know is when it happens it usually leads to a W. It obviously is not the only reason but it pumps the team up imo.

Just found this quote interesting because it sums up most people on that side of the argument.

But using that same logic I can say - whe KG doesnt step on the court the Celtics win a higher percentage of the time then with him. Is he hurting himself or on purpose to fire us up? Are they really better without him?

I wore red shirts 5 times this month and never got sick, red shirts must boost my immune system!

KG gets a ton of credit for things that can not be proven.
Last night he was getting eaten up and when he started his aggressive D he got scored on twice and went from 3 fouls to 5 and a tech? This was a plan? I wholeheartedly believe he wanted to get physical with Dirk to make him uncomfortable - no doubt. But did his plan als have him making two big hoops on him and putting him on the bench for 12 mins with 5 fouls? If he knew that he would force dirk to smoke him twice and that would lead to dirk going 0 for his next 7 that is some nostradomus type foresight. More likely, KG did his thing not to be a baby but b/c he is aggressive and thought ramping it up would benefit him and possibly his teams energy. And his teammates made him look very good.

You have to give leon more credit for the 0-7 then KG, leon actually played the defense and did a noticably better job of it then Kevin had all game. And as with the other three examples used earlier KG did x and PP went off.

Maybe PP goes off when he feels we are getting outplayed by inferior teams, as was the case in the examples mentioned and has happened numberous times for this team, even when KG did not go on an ultra aggressive defensive position. I think that is probably much more likely.

I think the actions were intentional and not "whining" just him doing what he thought was right, but giving him any real credit for the win and not rondo, pp and powe is insanity - especially when he never actually took the intesity and stopped Dirk or scored a hoop, or had a big block.

The occasional correlation-causation confusion is an important part of the issue here.  Well done on bringing that up, Carhole.

-sw

[drza44]

Fact is no one but KG can know exactly what was going on. All I know is when it happens it usually leads to a W. It obviously is not the only reason but it pumps the team up imo.

Just found this quote interesting because it sums up most people on that side of the argument.

But using that same logic I can say - whe KG doesnt step on the court the Celtics win a higher percentage of the time then with him. Is he hurting himself or on purpose to fire us up? Are they really better without him?

I wore red shirts 5 times this month and never got sick, red shirts must boost my immune system!

KG gets a ton of credit for things that can not be proven.
Last night he was getting eaten up and when he started his aggressive D he got scored on twice and went from 3 fouls to 5 and a tech? This was a plan? I wholeheartedly believe he wanted to get physical with Dirk to make him uncomfortable - no doubt. But did his plan als have him making two big hoops on him and putting him on the bench for 12 mins with 5 fouls? If he knew that he would force dirk to smoke him twice and that would lead to dirk going 0 for his next 7 that is some nostradomus type foresight. More likely, KG did his thing not to be a baby but b/c he is aggressive and thought ramping it up would benefit him and possibly his teams energy. And his teammates made him look very good.

You have to give leon more credit for the 0-7 then KG, leon actually played the defense and did a noticably better job of it then Kevin had all game. And as with the other three examples used earlier KG did x and PP went off.

Maybe PP goes off when he feels we are getting outplayed by inferior teams, as was the case in the examples mentioned and has happened numberous times for this team, even when KG did not go on an ultra aggressive defensive position. I think that is probably much more likely.

I think the actions were intentional and not "whining" just him doing what he thought was right, but giving him any real credit for the win and not rondo, pp and powe is insanity - especially when he never actually took the intesity and stopped Dirk or scored a hoop, or had a big block.

The occasional correlation-causation confusion is an important part of the issue here.  Well done on bringing that up, Carhole.

-sw

Yup, it's actually right at the crux.  If it was a clear-cut causation then this wouldn't be a question at all, and there'd have been no point in the OP.  But it's not clear-cut...there's no way to quantify "head games", and there's no way to really prove whether it even IS an intentional vet move or not.  That's why I pretty much threw it out there as a "what is your opinion" post...I gave some examples to use to show that there could be support for either train of thought, but ultimately I'm more wondering how people see it than trying to sell my case (at least so far). 

[Fafnir]

All this talk of do "head games" matter, and how much reminds me of Bill Russell and how he talked about playing defense.

“The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot.”

“Concentration and mental toughness are the margins of victory.”

The mental aspect of the game matters, even though it can not be objectively quantified.

I do think Doc's ejection and KG's fireworks with Dirk fired up the team. That certainly helped them perform so wonderfully down the stretch to steal a game we should not have won, especially on the road.

[Steve Weinman]

Fact is no one but KG can know exactly what was going on. All I know is when it happens it usually leads to a W. It obviously is not the only reason but it pumps the team up imo.

Just found this quote interesting because it sums up most people on that side of the argument.

But using that same logic I can say - whe KG doesnt step on the court the Celtics win a higher percentage of the time then with him. Is he hurting himself or on purpose to fire us up? Are they really better without him?

I wore red shirts 5 times this month and never got sick, red shirts must boost my immune system!

KG gets a ton of credit for things that can not be proven.
Last night he was getting eaten up and when he started his aggressive D he got scored on twice and went from 3 fouls to 5 and a tech? This was a plan? I wholeheartedly believe he wanted to get physical with Dirk to make him uncomfortable - no doubt. But did his plan als have him making two big hoops on him and putting him on the bench for 12 mins with 5 fouls? If he knew that he would force dirk to smoke him twice and that would lead to dirk going 0 for his next 7 that is some nostradomus type foresight. More likely, KG did his thing not to be a baby but b/c he is aggressive and thought ramping it up would benefit him and possibly his teams energy. And his teammates made him look very good.

You have to give leon more credit for the 0-7 then KG, leon actually played the defense and did a noticably better job of it then Kevin had all game. And as with the other three examples used earlier KG did x and PP went off.

Maybe PP goes off when he feels we are getting outplayed by inferior teams, as was the case in the examples mentioned and has happened numberous times for this team, even when KG did not go on an ultra aggressive defensive position. I think that is probably much more likely.

I think the actions were intentional and not "whining" just him doing what he thought was right, but giving him any real credit for the win and not rondo, pp and powe is insanity - especially when he never actually took the intesity and stopped Dirk or scored a hoop, or had a big block.

The occasional correlation-causation confusion is an important part of the issue here.  Well done on bringing that up, Carhole.

-sw

Yup, it's actually right at the crux.  If it was a clear-cut causation then this wouldn't be a question at all, and there'd have been no point in the OP.  But it's not clear-cut...there's no way to quantify "head games", and there's no way to really prove whether it even IS an intentional vet move or not.  That's why I pretty much threw it out there as a "what is your opinion" post...I gave some examples to use to show that there could be support for either train of thought, but ultimately I'm more wondering how people see it than trying to sell my case (at least so far). 

Also, drza, your response shouldn't have had to remind me (but alas it did) because I didn't mean to forget in my initial comment above - good stuff, I'm not entirely sure what I think on this one, but I enjoy reading the varying perspectives on board.  Thanks for putting a nice piece together and kick-starting the discussion.

-sw

[moiso]

In my opinion Dirk was the one playing head games with KG by scoring 37pts on him.  KG lost his cool when Dirk scored twice in row despite good defense from the defensive player of the year!
And as for Dirk, he's a jumpshooter.  As we all know from watching Ray and Eddie, you make a few then you miss a few.  KG didn't have anything to do with that.  The fact that Dirk was forced into taking fallaway jumpers by defenders other than KG was the reason he started missing.

[Carhole]

Fact is no one but KG can know exactly what was going on. All I know is when it happens it usually leads to a W. It obviously is not the only reason but it pumps the team up imo.

Just found this quote interesting because it sums up most people on that side of the argument.

But using that same logic I can say - whe KG doesnt step on the court the Celtics win a higher percentage of the time then with him. Is he hurting himself or on purpose to fire us up? Are they really better without him?

I wore red shirts 5 times this month and never got sick, red shirts must boost my immune system!

KG gets a ton of credit for things that can not be proven.
Last night he was getting eaten up and when he started his aggressive D he got scored on twice and went from 3 fouls to 5 and a tech? This was a plan? I wholeheartedly believe he wanted to get physical with Dirk to make him uncomfortable - no doubt. But did his plan als have him making two big hoops on him and putting him on the bench for 12 mins with 5 fouls? If he knew that he would force dirk to smoke him twice and that would lead to dirk going 0 for his next 7 that is some nostradomus type foresight. More likely, KG did his thing not to be a baby but b/c he is aggressive and thought ramping it up would benefit him and possibly his teams energy. And his teammates made him look very good.

You have to give leon more credit for the 0-7 then KG, leon actually played the defense and did a noticably better job of it then Kevin had all game. And as with the other three examples used earlier KG did x and PP went off.

Maybe PP goes off when he feels we are getting outplayed by inferior teams, as was the case in the examples mentioned and has happened numberous times for this team, even when KG did not go on an ultra aggressive defensive position. I think that is probably much more likely.

I think the actions were intentional and not "whining" just him doing what he thought was right, but giving him any real credit for the win and not rondo, pp and powe is insanity - especially when he never actually took the intesity and stopped Dirk or scored a hoop, or had a big block.

The occasional correlation-causation confusion is an important part of the issue here.  Well done on bringing that up, Carhole.

-sw

Yup, it's actually right at the crux.  If it was a clear-cut causation then this wouldn't be a question at all, and there'd have been no point in the OP.  But it's not clear-cut...there's no way to quantify "head games", and there's no way to really prove whether it even IS an intentional vet move or not.  That's why I pretty much threw it out there as a "what is your opinion" post...I gave some examples to use to show that there could be support for either train of thought, but ultimately I'm more wondering how people see it than trying to sell my case (at least so far). 

drza - i understood your position as more of a "want to see what people think" conversation starter. That is why i used the other quote b/c it seems that people on the "KG knows exactly what he is doing" side use that reasoning as a basis for their argument. Which is fine or their would be no discussion ha.

The thing is that logic is never applied in the opposite fashion, which it should be. So every time the Celtics blow a fourth quarter lead, like against Portland and GS, we should be making the assumption that KG blocking the after the whistle shot on the second to last possession o the 3rd quarter angered the other team so much that they came out and tried just the right amount of hard, but not too hard (b/c playing too hard like Dirk did leads to losses) to over take our celtics and saddle us with a loss we would not have had if KG just never tried to intimidate them by blocking shots after play was stopped.......

Personally I think that makes no sense and have never seen anyone use that reasoning to blame a loss on his antics. Which is just way too convienent

[drza44]

Yup, it's actually right at the crux.  If it was a clear-cut causation then this wouldn't be a question at all, and there'd have been no point in the OP.  But it's not clear-cut...there's no way to quantify "head games", and there's no way to really prove whether it even IS an intentional vet move or not.  That's why I pretty much threw it out there as a "what is your opinion" post...I gave some examples to use to show that there could be support for either train of thought, but ultimately I'm more wondering how people see it than trying to sell my case (at least so far). 

drza - i understood your position as more of a "want to see what people think" conversation starter. That is why i used the other quote b/c it seems that people on the "KG knows exactly what he is doing" side use that reasoning as a basis for their argument. Which is fine or their would be no discussion ha.

The thing is that logic is never applied in the opposite fashion, which it should be. So every time the Celtics blow a fourth quarter lead, like against Portland and GS, we should be making the assumption that KG blocking the after the whistle shot on the second to last possession o the 3rd quarter angered the other team so much that they came out and tried just the right amount of hard, but not too hard (b/c playing too hard like Dirk did leads to losses) to over take our celtics and saddle us with a loss we would not have had if KG just never tried to intimidate them by blocking shots after play was stopped.......

Personally I think that makes no sense and have never seen anyone use that reasoning to blame a loss on his antics. Which is just way too convienent

Frankly, there ARE times when KG's tricks hype up the competition and they play above their heads.  This is especially true against young teams that decide they have nothing to lose, and start playing freely on anger.  Hell, it happened when KG was on the Wolves in one of the last games he played against the Celtics, when young Big Al and Perk got all fired up and helped the Celtics squeak out a win.  It also used to happen at times when the Wolves would play the Maggette/Richardson Clippers, and I noticed it this year against Aldridge and the Blazers.

No trick works all of the time (just like no offensive/defensive scheme works all the time and no shot always goes in).  But it's a playing the odds thing...if I make a qualitative list of the number of times that the mind games have seemed to work vs. how many times it hasn't, it seems to me that it works more times than not (for instance, in the examples I gave above, there were other counter-examples with those same teams/players where the opponent either got intimidated (see articles both this and last year by Portland beat writers about how they seemed intimidated by the Celts, especially KG, and it affected their play) or tried to hard (happened often against Maggette/Richardson) and forced/shot their way out of a game.

Again, it's not all or nothing.  Pierce doesn't always make the play in the clutch, but he is successful more times than not so he is still known as a clutch player.  Duncan's post defense doesn't always prevent the opponent from scoring, but he is successful more times than not so he is still known as a great 1-on-1 interior defender.  And KG's mental tricks don't always work, but if they work more often than not then he should still be considered good at manipulating the mental part of the game...

...If you believe that such a "mental game" exists and is played consciously, of course.

[Discoflux]

KG is my favorite player in the NBA but I lost some respect for the guy for what he was doing to Dirk.  He was really being a baby, which is not a complement to his warrior attitude.  KG blends warrior with punk and I don't get it when he does that.  Its like when he started crying to Bill Russell during their one on one interview.  In a way I respect the man for having such strong emotion but on the other hand he needs to get a grip sometimes and sack up. 

[Donoghus]

KG is my favorite player in the NBA but I lost some respect for the guy for what he was doing to Dirk.  He was really being a baby, which is not a complement to his warrior attitude.  KG blends warrior with punk and I don't get it when he does that.  Its like when he started crying to Bill Russell during their one on one interview.  In a way I respect the man for having such strong emotion but on the other hand he needs to get a grip sometimes and sack up. 

Are you talking about the technical and fouls?  The Celtics were down and what KG did, definitely sparked that team for the rest of the game. 

He might rub some others the wrong way but he is a leader and his impact on this team since arriving cannot be underestimated.  He has transformed Celtics basketball.

[Discoflux]

KG is my favorite player in the NBA but I lost some respect for the guy for what he was doing to Dirk.  He was really being a baby, which is not a complement to his warrior attitude.  KG blends warrior with punk and I don't get it when he does that.  Its like when he started crying to Bill Russell during their one on one interview.  In a way I respect the man for having such strong emotion but on the other hand he needs to get a grip sometimes and sack up. 

Are you talking about the technical and fouls?  The Celtics were down and what KG did, definitely sparked that team for the rest of the game. 

He might rub some others the wrong way but he is a leader and his impact on this team since arriving cannot be underestimated.  He has transformed Celtics basketball.

I'm talking about the techs after having a mental breakdown.  He started pulling a Dennis Rodman and was getting up in Dirk's grill off the ball, staring him down, talking trash, just being a weirdo.  It wasn't aggressive, clean basketball, there was some kind of mental breakdown going on.  Then he got himself some bad fouls, T'd up then Doc got himself tossed all in one chain of events.  I didn't see that as anything for you guys to be proud of.  Fortunately the team did get tough and pulled out a win.... and Dirk went 0-7 from there otherwise probably would have been a Mavs victory. 

So maybe the headgame worked on Dirk... but it seemed pretty cheap like Dennis Rodman style cheap. KG is better than that, especially when he just plays head's up KG basketball. 

There seems to be a side to KG where he is prone to breakdown tantrum style, but fortunately it is very rare.

[drza44]

KG is my favorite player in the NBA but I lost some respect for the guy for what he was doing to Dirk.  He was really being a baby, which is not a complement to his warrior attitude.  KG blends warrior with punk and I don't get it when he does that.  Its like when he started crying to Bill Russell during their one on one interview.  In a way I respect the man for having such strong emotion but on the other hand he needs to get a grip sometimes and sack up. 

Are you talking about the technical and fouls?  The Celtics were down and what KG did, definitely sparked that team for the rest of the game. 

He might rub some others the wrong way but he is a leader and his impact on this team since arriving cannot be underestimated.  He has transformed Celtics basketball.

I'm talking about the techs after having a mental breakdown.  He started pulling a Dennis Rodman and was getting up in Dirk's grill off the ball, staring him down, talking trash, just being a weirdo.  It wasn't aggressive, clean basketball, there was some kind of mental breakdown going on.  Then he got himself some bad fouls, T'd up then Doc got himself tossed all in one chain of events.  I didn't see that as anything for you guys to be proud of.  Fortunately the team did get tough and pulled out a win.... and Dirk went 0-7 from there otherwise probably would have been a Mavs victory. 

So maybe the headgame worked on Dirk... but it seemed pretty cheap like Dennis Rodman style cheap. KG is better than that, especially when he just plays head's up KG basketball. 

There seems to be a side to KG where he is prone to breakdown tantrum style, but fortunately it is very rare.

Lol.  What you just described was the whole point to the OP...namely, do you believe that KG snaps out like that because he childishly can't control himself or because he consciously is playing mind games in order to get into his opponents head/hype up his teammates. 

The ironic thing about your post is that you seem to believe that KG is doing it purposefully to get into his opponent's head (like Rodman used to), but you just don't condone it.  That's, I believe, a first in this thread as most so far have either a) not believed it was on purpose, but instead that he just lost control and criticize him for it or b) believed that he is doing purposefully and appreciate that it helps lead to wins. 

In your posts you invoke the names of Bill Russell and Rodman...Russell famously adhered to getting into the minds of his opponents, and Rodman obviously did as wel to the Nth degree.  The thing is, they are (I believe) the 2 winningest defensive impact player/rebounders in NBA history.  Rodman is the only PF in NBA history to win DPoY twice, and the award should be named after Russell.  Russell has 5 rebound crowns, Rodman has 7.  Combined they have 16 NBA titles,

KG joins them and 2 others (Mo Malone and Wilt) as the only players ever with at least 4 rebound crowns.  KG is the only PF ever besides Rodman to win DPoY...and the only Celtic besides Russell to deserve it.  On the defensive side of the ball, KG could easily be considered this generation's answer to Russ and Rodman.

So with all of that said...is it really a BAD thing if KG also picked up a variation of their propensity for mind games as well?

[RAcker]

When you watch the old films and see Larry, DA, Max, McHale doing this stuff you freaking cheer like a a homer. When you get to see a HoFer doing it NOW, you whine.

Who cares that he hit for 37. LeBron hit for 45 and PP 41 but who was the hero?

If you have REALLY played on a team, as a team, you will not underestimate the motivation that can come from defending your team mate.

Amen...what he said.

[Snakehead]

(Looked at some of the recent responses but forgive me if I'm retreading a lot of old ground here)


KG is so easy to like, so I find all this hate on him this season silly.  You hear fans talk about how sports have sold out and how players and even teams jump ship for money.  You hear people angry about steroid use.  You hear people say they don't care like they used to about the game.  But here is a guy who plays with the fire and intensity that the greats played with.  Bird and Jordan get idolized and KG attacked.  I can certainly understand fans around the league liking Garnett less with the way that Garnett has become a big intimidator this season, but respect that it's because he wants his team to win.  I'm sure over time people will realize why KG's antics make him a great competitor.

Boston fans should be thrilled.  Here is a modern star player who seems to take things very seriously and isn't afraid to get in another players face.  Usually you only see that kind of thing out of roleplayers these days, guys like Perkins.  Between Perkins and Garnett and the hustle you see the Celtics bring at times, they really should be a team to be respected if nothing else.  I hope that's not just me being too much of a Celtics fan, but I don't see how you look at it any other way.

Lol.  What you just described was the whole point to the OP...namely, do you believe that KG snaps out like that because he childishly can't control himself or because he consciously is playing mind games in order to get into his opponents head/hype up his teammates. 

The ironic thing about your post is that you seem to believe that KG is doing it purposefully to get into his opponent's head (like Rodman used to), but you just don't condone it.  That's, I believe, a first in this thread as most so far have either a) not believed it was on purpose, but instead that he just lost control and criticize him for it or b) believed that he is doing purposefully and appreciate that it helps lead to wins. 

In your posts you invoke the names of Bill Russell and Rodman...Russell famously adhered to getting into the minds of his opponents, and Rodman obviously did as wel to the Nth degree.  The thing is, they are (I believe) the 2 winningest defensive impact player/rebounders in NBA history.  Rodman is the only PF in NBA history to win DPoY twice, and the award should be named after Russell.  Russell has 5 rebound crowns, Rodman has 7.  Combined they have 16 NBA titles,

KG joins them and 2 others (Mo Malone and Wilt) as the only players ever with at least 4 rebound crowns.  KG is the only PF ever besides Rodman to win DPoY...and the only Celtic besides Russell to deserve it.  On the defensive side of the ball, KG could easily be considered this generation's answer to Russ and Rodman.

So with all of that said...is it really a BAD thing if KG also picked up a variation of their propensity for mind games as well?

Now that is a great post.

[dark_lord]

let kg do what he needs to do. it has worked since coming to boston.

[RAcker]

let kg do what he needs to do. it has worked since coming to boston.

And this, Sir, is why you are the Dark Lord.