Oh, and as for the KG is declining while Duncan isn't argument, I don't see it. Both are not what they were in '03, but both are still playing at a similar high level. At this point, they each are playing to their level of need in the regular season then stepping it up in the playoffs. The Spurs have needed more from Duncan this year due to the injuries to Parker and Ginobili and then getting them re-acclimated to the line-up, while the Celts haven't needed more from KG than he is giving. But if you look, KG's season this year looks almost exactly like Duncan's in '06: similar stats, similar role (defensive anchor and scorer as needed with two strong scoring perimeter players), both on teams coming off of championships on their way to 60+ wins. Really, check it out:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=duncati01&y1=2006&p2=garneke01&y2=2009
When Duncan does it it's considered smart veteran play from a superstar with postseason focus, but with KG it's a sign that he isn't impact anymore? I mean really, isn't this Boston where Red and Russell made a mantra out of being unconcerned about the box score as long as the team was winning? Let's see what happens in the postseason, when KG is consistently called upon to play at his peak, before we write his eulogy...
Good posts - the only thing to me is people on the KG side of the argument seem to think Duncan being slightly better then KG (enough so that some, including myself think it is clear duncan is the greatest pf ever to play) means that KG is garbage or something similar. Who says he doesnt have an affect? Simmons has him in the top 15 area of untouchable players for all of the ways he changes the game for the C's?
Duncan also is a more efficient scorer without the benefit of being nearly as good a ft shooter - TD's biggest weakness - almost a full pps ahead of kg. Because he draws more fouls, that is a huge difference to how a team plays - if PP draws 4 fouls in a quarter going to the hole, then ray allen gets grabbed coming off a screen and gets to the line, really pp did all the work to get ray, or whoever those points and hence get the team easy points and allow for completely different offensive possessions the rest of the quarter.
KG is all time great, but not having an offenive game that gets him to the line is a problem in crunch time and not using superior ability to draw fouls all game long changes the complexion of a game significantly.
I appreciate the reasonable and thought out response, and I grant you Duncan's advantage in drawing fouls...though I do think you're grossly overstating it here. Duncan a full point-per-shot ahead? I'm assuming you're talking about in the comp that I showed? If so, it's more like 1 point per 15 shots or .07 pps difference, which is a much much smaller difference. And on the flip side, KG has been more efficient on the offensive end as a whole as evidenced by his higher true shooting percentage, his higher offensive rating, and his fewer turnovers/similar # assists.
If you were instead talking career instead of that comp, again there's a tradeoff. Duncan gets to the line more, which helps the offense flow for his teammates in one way. But KG has always been a better passer, which helps the offense flow for his teammates in a different way. This, actually, speaks a bit to the point I was making earlier about how both KG and Duncan play to their team need:
KG is a player that has had the offense run through him his whole career, and he is good at it. There's a reason that he broke Bird's 20-point/10-rebound/5-assist record, as he is one of the better passing big men in history. But on these Celtics, each of GPA had to sacrifice a part of their games. Pierce sacrificed some scoring volume, Ray sacrificed being the centerpiece, and KG sacrificed his role as an offense generator. Pierce and Rondo are in charge of having the ball in their hands a lot and setting up their teammates, so KG instead uses his offensive energy in other ways. He is now a much more efficient shooter than he's been in his career, and he focuses a lot more on his spot-up jumper/spacing the floor/setting picks than he ever did before. But just because he ISN'T running the offense more, it doesn't mean that he COULDN'T...surveying the floor and setting up teammates isn't something that really declines with age. It's just better for the team as a whole that he cede those duties to two others. I think a lot of people whose main KG experience (saw him before, but not with nearly the regularity that they do now) don't take that into account.
And really, back on point, that is a key of the Duncan vs. Garnett argument to me. They aren't the exact same player, but each has strengths and weaknesses that work in their favors and seem to balance out a lot in overall impact. Or if there is a difference there, it's not NEARLY as big as the differences in their supporting casts have been.
In other words, it seems to me that the over-arcing pro-Duncan argument is based on the fact that he has had better team results than KG. One train of logic is that Duncan has had those better results because he is in some way better than KG, but any attempts to show that difference are very small and can have reasonable counterarguments. On the other hand, the other train of logic is that Duncan has had those better results because he has had better teammates. That Duncan has had better teammates over their career isn't really up for debate, as it is pretty objectively true. So in the instance where one line of thought has differences that are (to me) down in the noise, where the other line of thought has significant differences...I would tend to think that it would be harder to base conclusive statements on the area that is debatable than on the area where there is such a stark difference.
Topic: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out (Read 15985 times)