Author Topic: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out  (Read 15874 times)

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Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2009, 02:47:46 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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KG is slipping down that list

Ray Allen is irrelevant now, huh?


Simmons love of Duncan for some reason forces him to criticize KG. As if they both can't be all time great power forwards. Though Duncan has become a Center over the past few years, something KG hasn't so the comparison isn't straight apples to apples.

I don't think he's criticizing KG.  Duncan's career has been one of maximum efficiency... he's not a leaper, he's not a sprinter, he's not running all over the court on both sides of the ball, and he's a big unathletic player without being too big to his own detriment.  In other words, he gets a lot done without having to do "a lot".  KG is the exact opposite.  Duncan's playing style is obviously more conducive to a longer career.
First off to say Tim Duncan isn't athletic is crazy. He's very athletic. He has at this point become a pretty traditional NBA center though.

I do think it is a dig at KG when all you talk about in his entry how Duncan is better.

They are very different kinds of players. Duncan is a traditional low post man, KG is more perimeter orientated, and therefore he is less efficient offensively. He makes a bigger impact with the type of defense he plays. But the spacing he provides is also valuable.

Both players have and will age very well. By not going to the post as often as Duncan, KG will be able to maintain his high level of play for a long time. Especially on the defensive end.

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2009, 02:50:02 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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KG is slipping down that list

Ray Allen is irrelevant now, huh?


Simmons love of Duncan for some reason forces him to criticize KG. As if they both can't be all time great power forwards. Though Duncan has become a Center over the past few years, something KG hasn't so the comparison isn't straight apples to apples.

I don't think he's criticizing KG.  Duncan's career has been one of maximum efficiency... he's not a leaper, he's not a sprinter, he's not running all over the court on both sides of the ball, and he's a big unathletic player without being too big to his own detriment.  In other words, he gets a lot done without having to do "a lot".  KG is the exact opposite.  Duncan's playing style is obviously more conducive to a longer career.
I hadn't thought too much about that, but it's true. It surprises me to say it, but I guess it shouldn't be surprising to think that Duncan could still be playing 7 or 8 years from now. I doubt Garnett has more than 5 left.
Both could easily play that long assuming they don't have a major blow out with an injury(ala Karl Malone's knee)

A 7 foot big man with an 18 foot jump shot can play a very very long time. PJ Brown anyone?

Both also exert a lot of energy, I wonder how much of that perception is just the different demeanor the two players have. Fiery for one, rather chill for the other.

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2009, 03:00:01 PM »

Offline Carhole

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KG is slipping down that list

Ray Allen is irrelevant now, huh?


Simmons love of Duncan for some reason forces him to criticize KG. As if they both can't be all time great power forwards. Though Duncan has become a Center over the past few years, something KG hasn't so the comparison isn't straight apples to apples.

I don't think he's criticizing KG.  Duncan's career has been one of maximum efficiency... he's not a leaper, he's not a sprinter, he's not running all over the court on both sides of the ball, and he's a big unathletic player without being too big to his own detriment.  In other words, he gets a lot done without having to do "a lot".  KG is the exact opposite.  Duncan's playing style is obviously more conducive to a longer career.
First off to say Tim Duncan isn't athletic is crazy. He's very athletic. He has at this point become a pretty traditional NBA center though.

I do think it is a dig at KG when all you talk about in his entry how Duncan is better.

They are very different kinds of players. Duncan is a traditional low post man, KG is more perimeter orientated, and therefore he is less efficient offensively. He makes a bigger impact with the type of defense he plays. But the spacing he provides is also valuable.

Both players have and will age very well. By not going to the post as often as Duncan, KG will be able to maintain his high level of play for a long time. Especially on the defensive end.

Also in an earlier post you said comparing them, b/c Duncan has played more 5 lately, is not apples to apples. That is the entire point of the article though comparing players that are not apples to apples and in a larger sense when comparing any players careers.

I love KG, but alltime he is no Duncan. And everything you said is why besides the fact you are overrating KG's defense in comparison to Duncans Defensived skill set.

KG never lead Dominant defensive teams until he met up with a group of vets and Tibs. Duncan has been the anchor to a decades worth of top 5 defensive teams with all different players around him. Duncan is a far superior post defender, KG gets killed defending stronger guys in the post. KG is however one of the greatest help defenders / pick and roll defenders I have ever seen.

Offensively, you win a lot more - especially come playoffs - when you are an efficient scoring post presence then when you are a 7fter who shoots midrange and doesnt get to the line. And both are excellent passers from where they play on the floor.

Simmons isnt knocking KG, he is saying as great as KG is anywhere from 2 through probably 7 alltime power forwards TD is that much better - far and away the best.

I love KG and I love the C's but he is correct - no shame in only being one of the greatest power forwards to ever play the game

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2009, 03:22:48 PM »

Offline Hoyo de Monterrey

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KG is slipping down that list

Ray Allen is irrelevant now, huh?


Simmons love of Duncan for some reason forces him to criticize KG. As if they both can't be all time great power forwards. Though Duncan has become a Center over the past few years, something KG hasn't so the comparison isn't straight apples to apples.

I don't think he's criticizing KG.  Duncan's career has been one of maximum efficiency... he's not a leaper, he's not a sprinter, he's not running all over the court on both sides of the ball, and he's a big unathletic player without being too big to his own detriment.  In other words, he gets a lot done without having to do "a lot".  KG is the exact opposite.  Duncan's playing style is obviously more conducive to a longer career.
I hadn't thought too much about that, but it's true. It surprises me to say it, but I guess it shouldn't be surprising to think that Duncan could still be playing 7 or 8 years from now. I doubt Garnett has more than 5 left.
Both could easily play that long assuming they don't have a major blow out with an injury(ala Karl Malone's knee)

A 7 foot big man with an 18 foot jump shot can play a very very long time. PJ Brown anyone?

Both also exert a lot of energy, I wonder how much of that perception is just the different demeanor the two players have. Fiery for one, rather chill for the other.

Think about the energy and intensity KG plays with literally every night. It's no surprise to me that he's worn down faster then Tim (I routinely take December-early March off with the rest of my team and turn it on in the playoffs) Duncan.

They are definitely both great.
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Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2009, 03:23:57 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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KG is slipping down that list

Ray Allen is irrelevant now, huh?


Simmons love of Duncan for some reason forces him to criticize KG. As if they both can't be all time great power forwards. Though Duncan has become a Center over the past few years, something KG hasn't so the comparison isn't straight apples to apples.

I don't think he's criticizing KG.  Duncan's career has been one of maximum efficiency... he's not a leaper, he's not a sprinter, he's not running all over the court on both sides of the ball, and he's a big unathletic player without being too big to his own detriment.  In other words, he gets a lot done without having to do "a lot".  KG is the exact opposite.  Duncan's playing style is obviously more conducive to a longer career.
First off to say Tim Duncan isn't athletic is crazy. He's very athletic. He has at this point become a pretty traditional NBA center though.

I do think it is a dig at KG when all you talk about in his entry how Duncan is better.

They are very different kinds of players. Duncan is a traditional low post man, KG is more perimeter orientated, and therefore he is less efficient offensively. He makes a bigger impact with the type of defense he plays. But the spacing he provides is also valuable.

Both players have and will age very well. By not going to the post as often as Duncan, KG will be able to maintain his high level of play for a long time. Especially on the defensive end.

Also in an earlier post you said comparing them, b/c Duncan has played more 5 lately, is not apples to apples. That is the entire point of the article though comparing players that are not apples to apples and in a larger sense when comparing any players careers.

I love KG, but alltime he is no Duncan. And everything you said is why besides the fact you are overrating KG's defense in comparison to Duncans Defensived skill set.

KG never lead Dominant defensive teams until he met up with a group of vets and Tibs. Duncan has been the anchor to a decades worth of top 5 defensive teams with all different players around him. Duncan is a far superior post defender, KG gets killed defending stronger guys in the post. KG is however one of the greatest help defenders / pick and roll defenders I have ever seen.
You're making the mistake of using a team statistic to judge an individual player. Take a look at the personal and coaching of the Spurs and Timberwolves. Is it really any surprise that the Spurs have been a better defensive team? I mean they had David Robinson for most of Duncan's early career for crying out loud.

It is not as if KG plays poor post defense either, he's just not a 5 and can't guard big centers for an entire game. Duncan can, it means you need to surround them with different players to get the most out of them.

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2009, 03:26:28 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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KG is slipping down that list

Ray Allen is irrelevant now, huh?


Simmons love of Duncan for some reason forces him to criticize KG. As if they both can't be all time great power forwards. Though Duncan has become a Center over the past few years, something KG hasn't so the comparison isn't straight apples to apples.

I don't think he's criticizing KG.  Duncan's career has been one of maximum efficiency... he's not a leaper, he's not a sprinter, he's not running all over the court on both sides of the ball, and he's a big unathletic player without being too big to his own detriment.  In other words, he gets a lot done without having to do "a lot".  KG is the exact opposite.  Duncan's playing style is obviously more conducive to a longer career.
I hadn't thought too much about that, but it's true. It surprises me to say it, but I guess it shouldn't be surprising to think that Duncan could still be playing 7 or 8 years from now. I doubt Garnett has more than 5 left.
Both could easily play that long assuming they don't have a major blow out with an injury(ala Karl Malone's knee)

A 7 foot big man with an 18 foot jump shot can play a very very long time. PJ Brown anyone?

Both also exert a lot of energy, I wonder how much of that perception is just the different demeanor the two players have. Fiery for one, rather chill for the other.

Think about the energy and intensity KG plays with literally every night. It's no surprise to me that he's worn down faster then Tim (I routinely take December-early March off with the rest of my team and turn it on in the playoffs) Duncan.

They are definitely both great.
I agree with you on most of it. But I still don't think KG is significantly more "worn down" than Duncan. Watching both players this year compared to 2000 - 2003 it is pretty clear that age is creeping up on both of them. Both remain elite players that can anchor a title team. Which is probably the most impressive thing about the pair. Too many bigs break down very young.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 03:33:21 PM by Fafnir »

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2009, 03:33:51 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I love KG, but alltime he is no Duncan. And everything you said is why besides the fact you are overrating KG's defense in comparison to Duncans Defensived skill set.

KG never lead Dominant defensive teams until he met up with a group of vets and Tibs. Duncan has been the anchor to a decades worth of top 5 defensive teams with all different players around him. Duncan is a far superior post defender, KG gets killed defending stronger guys in the post. KG is however one of the greatest help defenders / pick and roll defenders I have ever seen.

  When's Duncan ever been on a team like some of the Minny teams? When has he played without vets? When was KG ever paired with defenders like Robinson or Bowen? In effect, you're saying that since Duncan was always on teams with more veterans and better defenders than KG until last year that he's a much better defender. KG's defense is not overrated, and it's not worse than Duncan's.

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2009, 03:47:28 PM »

Offline Carhole

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I love KG, but alltime he is no Duncan. And everything you said is why besides the fact you are overrating KG's defense in comparison to Duncans Defensived skill set.

KG never lead a dominant defensive team until he met up with a group of vets and Tibs. Duncan has been the anchor to a decades worth of top 5 defensive teams with all different players around him. Duncan is a far superior post defender, KG gets killed defending stronger guys in the post. KG is however one of the greatest help defenders / pick and roll defenders I have ever seen.

  When's Duncan ever been on a team like some of the Minny teams? When has he played without vets? When was KG ever paired with defenders like Robinson or Bowen? In effect, you're saying that since Duncan was always on teams with more veterans and better defenders than KG until last year that he's a much better defender. KG's defense is not overrated, and it's not worse than Duncan's.

Yes it is and if you have been watching for the past decade it is pretty evident. San Antonio's cast has been allowed to built, grow, and evolve around Duncans defense. Saying that San Antonio has all these great defenders is a testiment to how solid of a defensive anchor Duncan is. Bruce Bowen wasnt a defensive master until he got on a team with Duncan. And the Robinson issue is way over blown to try and prove a point, TD had 3 seasons of a healthy Robinson, but has had the Spurs as a top defensive team for 13 years. Defense is built from the middle out, and KG doesnt control the middle. He is a very average post defender.

Every arguement for KG is the same, he didnt have the same players that Duncan had. Who is to say, it is an arguement that can not be substantiated. The only thing that can be is overall performance and the performance of their team in this team sport - where everything is built around your "foundation" players.

KG needs a Perk like presence for his teams to be at their best defensively and for him to be allowed to affect the team defensive scheme to the best of his ability. There is nothing wrong with that

The larger point is, TD would NEVER be on a team like some of those Minny teams b/c of what he brings to the table as an offensive and defensive force allowing for role players to only have to play their roles, where KG doesnt have all of those same abilities.

San Antonio with KG does not win the titles they did with Duncan - that is my opinion

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2009, 03:52:37 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I love KG, but alltime he is no Duncan. And everything you said is why besides the fact you are overrating KG's defense in comparison to Duncans Defensived skill set.

KG never lead a dominant defensive team until he met up with a group of vets and Tibs. Duncan has been the anchor to a decades worth of top 5 defensive teams with all different players around him. Duncan is a far superior post defender, KG gets killed defending stronger guys in the post. KG is however one of the greatest help defenders / pick and roll defenders I have ever seen.

  When's Duncan ever been on a team like some of the Minny teams? When has he played without vets? When was KG ever paired with defenders like Robinson or Bowen? In effect, you're saying that since Duncan was always on teams with more veterans and better defenders than KG until last year that he's a much better defender. KG's defense is not overrated, and it's not worse than Duncan's.

Yes it is and if you have been watching for the past decade it is pretty evident. San Antonio's cast has been allowed to built, grow, and evolve around Duncans defense. Saying that San Antonio has all these great defenders is a testiment to how solid of a defensive anchor Duncan is. Bruce Bowen wasnt a defensive master until he got on a team with Duncan. And the Robinson issue is way over blown to try and prove a point, TD had 3 seasons of a healthy Robinson, but has had the Spurs as a top defensive team for 13 years. Defense is built from the middle out, and KG doesnt control the middle. He is a very average post defender.

Every arguement for KG is the same, he didnt have the same players that Duncan had. Who is to say, it is an arguement that can not be substantiated. The only thing that can be is overall performance and the performance of their team in this team sport - where everything is built around your "foundation" players.

KG needs a Perk like presence for his teams to be at their best defensively and for him to be allowed to affect the team defensive scheme to the best of his ability. There is nothing wrong with that

The larger point is, TD would NEVER be on a team like some of those Minny teams b/c of what he brings to the table as an offensive and defensive force allowing for role players to only have to play their roles, where KG doesnt have all of those same abilities.

San Antonio with KG does not win the titles they did with Duncan - that is my opinion
Michael Jordan was on some pretty bad teams too. Why didn't he magically make them all into great role players and win his first title at a much younger age than he did? Or is that ability solely Tim Duncan's and Bill Russell's?

Good players make their team mates look better, they don't actually make them that much better. I'm not sure if the San Antonio teams win a title with KG/Duncan switched. But Duncan has until last year and perhaps the year with Sam/Latrell always had more talent around him. Just go look at the Minnesota rosters, its laughable to say KG underperformed with those teams.

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2009, 03:59:25 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I love KG, but alltime he is no Duncan. And everything you said is why besides the fact you are overrating KG's defense in comparison to Duncans Defensived skill set.

KG never lead a dominant defensive team until he met up with a group of vets and Tibs. Duncan has been the anchor to a decades worth of top 5 defensive teams with all different players around him. Duncan is a far superior post defender, KG gets killed defending stronger guys in the post. KG is however one of the greatest help defenders / pick and roll defenders I have ever seen.

  When's Duncan ever been on a team like some of the Minny teams? When has he played without vets? When was KG ever paired with defenders like Robinson or Bowen? In effect, you're saying that since Duncan was always on teams with more veterans and better defenders than KG until last year that he's a much better defender. KG's defense is not overrated, and it's not worse than Duncan's.

Yes it is and if you have been watching for the past decade it is pretty evident. San Antonio's cast has been allowed to built, grow, and evolve around Duncans defense. Saying that San Antonio has all these great defenders is a testiment to how solid of a defensive anchor Duncan is. Bruce Bowen wasnt a defensive master until he got on a team with Duncan. And the Robinson issue is way over blown to try and prove a point, TD had 3 seasons of a healthy Robinson, but has had the Spurs as a top defensive team for 13 years. Defense is built from the middle out, and KG doesnt control the middle. He is a very average post defender.

Every arguement for KG is the same, he didnt have the same players that Duncan had. Who is to say, it is an arguement that can not be substantiated. The only thing that can be is overall performance and the performance of their team in this team sport - where everything is built around your "foundation" players.

KG needs a Perk like presence for his teams to be at their best defensively and for him to be allowed to affect the team defensive scheme to the best of his ability. There is nothing wrong with that

The larger point is, TD would NEVER be on a team like some of those Minny teams b/c of what he brings to the table as an offensive and defensive force allowing for role players to only have to play their roles, where KG doesnt have all of those same abilities.

San Antonio with KG does not win the titles they did with Duncan - that is my opinion

  I stopped reading at "if you have been watching for the past decade it is pretty evident".

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2009, 04:04:05 PM »

Offline Carhole

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I love KG, but alltime he is no Duncan. And everything you said is why besides the fact you are overrating KG's defense in comparison to Duncans Defensived skill set.

KG never lead a dominant defensive team until he met up with a group of vets and Tibs. Duncan has been the anchor to a decades worth of top 5 defensive teams with all different players around him. Duncan is a far superior post defender, KG gets killed defending stronger guys in the post. KG is however one of the greatest help defenders / pick and roll defenders I have ever seen.

  When's Duncan ever been on a team like some of the Minny teams? When has he played without vets? When was KG ever paired with defenders like Robinson or Bowen? In effect, you're saying that since Duncan was always on teams with more veterans and better defenders than KG until last year that he's a much better defender. KG's defense is not overrated, and it's not worse than Duncan's.

Yes it is and if you have been watching for the past decade it is pretty evident. San Antonio's cast has been allowed to built, grow, and evolve around Duncans defense. Saying that San Antonio has all these great defenders is a testiment to how solid of a defensive anchor Duncan is. Bruce Bowen wasnt a defensive master until he got on a team with Duncan. And the Robinson issue is way over blown to try and prove a point, TD had 3 seasons of a healthy Robinson, but has had the Spurs as a top defensive team for 13 years. Defense is built from the middle out, and KG doesnt control the middle. He is a very average post defender.

Every arguement for KG is the same, he didnt have the same players that Duncan had. Who is to say, it is an arguement that can not be substantiated. The only thing that can be is overall performance and the performance of their team in this team sport - where everything is built around your "foundation" players.

KG needs a Perk like presence for his teams to be at their best defensively and for him to be allowed to affect the team defensive scheme to the best of his ability. There is nothing wrong with that

The larger point is, TD would NEVER be on a team like some of those Minny teams b/c of what he brings to the table as an offensive and defensive force allowing for role players to only have to play their roles, where KG doesnt have all of those same abilities.

San Antonio with KG does not win the titles they did with Duncan - that is my opinion

  I stopped reading at "if you have been watching for the past decade it is pretty evident".

That is your loss I suppose. The sad part is I like KG more then Duncan but your argument doesnt seem to be based on anything more then "forget all the actual facts, stats and games you have watched - prove it to me by using some other means - b/c i just do not believe it to be true"
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 04:10:04 PM by Carhole »

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2009, 04:08:17 PM »

Offline Carhole

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I love KG, but alltime he is no Duncan. And everything you said is why besides the fact you are overrating KG's defense in comparison to Duncans Defensived skill set.

KG never lead a dominant defensive team until he met up with a group of vets and Tibs. Duncan has been the anchor to a decades worth of top 5 defensive teams with all different players around him. Duncan is a far superior post defender, KG gets killed defending stronger guys in the post. KG is however one of the greatest help defenders / pick and roll defenders I have ever seen.

  When's Duncan ever been on a team like some of the Minny teams? When has he played without vets? When was KG ever paired with defenders like Robinson or Bowen? In effect, you're saying that since Duncan was always on teams with more veterans and better defenders than KG until last year that he's a much better defender. KG's defense is not overrated, and it's not worse than Duncan's.

Yes it is and if you have been watching for the past decade it is pretty evident. San Antonio's cast has been allowed to built, grow, and evolve around Duncans defense. Saying that San Antonio has all these great defenders is a testiment to how solid of a defensive anchor Duncan is. Bruce Bowen wasnt a defensive master until he got on a team with Duncan. And the Robinson issue is way over blown to try and prove a point, TD had 3 seasons of a healthy Robinson, but has had the Spurs as a top defensive team for 13 years. Defense is built from the middle out, and KG doesnt control the middle. He is a very average post defender.

Every arguement for KG is the same, he didnt have the same players that Duncan had. Who is to say, it is an arguement that can not be substantiated. The only thing that can be is overall performance and the performance of their team in this team sport - where everything is built around your "foundation" players.

KG needs a Perk like presence for his teams to be at their best defensively and for him to be allowed to affect the team defensive scheme to the best of his ability. There is nothing wrong with that

The larger point is, TD would NEVER be on a team like some of those Minny teams b/c of what he brings to the table as an offensive and defensive force allowing for role players to only have to play their roles, where KG doesnt have all of those same abilities.

San Antonio with KG does not win the titles they did with Duncan - that is my opinion
Michael Jordan was on some pretty bad teams too. Why didn't he magically make them all into great role players and win his first title at a much younger age than he did? Or is that ability solely Tim Duncan's and Bill Russell's?

Good players make their team mates look better, they don't actually make them that much better. I'm not sure if the San Antonio teams win a title with KG/Duncan switched. But Duncan has until last year and perhaps the year with Sam/Latrell always had more talent around him. Just go look at the Minnesota rosters, its laughable to say KG underperformed with those teams.

I never ever said KG underperformed. Not once, for gods sake I said he very well could be the second greatest PF of all time.

The jordan issue goes to a point from further in my post. Defense is built from the middle out as is great team offense. It is significantly easier to make other players "better" and have a larger overall impact on the game from the post then it is to do it from the wing. That is exactly what makes Jordan so transcendent  - he was so gifted on the wing that he ended up becoming one of the greatest team winners ever without that presence that is on almost all other elite level NBA teams.

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2009, 04:13:47 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I just take umbrage to statements like: "Tim Duncan would never be on a team that bad". It is just not true. Fantastic players, all time greats, are on bad teams all of the time.

Team success is a poor measure of a player's greatness.

Anyways back to the original point. I still think KG is too low on the list by a few places, and I don't think there is a big difference between him an Duncan overall.

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2009, 04:16:06 PM »

Offline Big Ticket

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KG is slipping down that list

Ray Allen is irrelevant now, huh?


Simmons love of Duncan for some reason forces him to criticize KG. As if they both can't be all time great power forwards. Though Duncan has become a Center over the past few years, something KG hasn't so the comparison isn't straight apples to apples.

I don't think he's criticizing KG.  Duncan's career has been one of maximum efficiency... he's not a leaper, he's not a sprinter, he's not running all over the court on both sides of the ball, and he's a big unathletic player without being too big to his own detriment.  In other words, he gets a lot done without having to do "a lot".  KG is the exact opposite.  Duncan's playing style is obviously more conducive to a longer career.
First off to say Tim Duncan isn't athletic is crazy. He's very athletic.

I guess we have very different definitions of athleticism.


"It ain't about me.  It's about us."  - KG, interview with John Thompson, 2005 All Star Game.

Re: Bill Simmons' New NBA Untouchable Rankings Out
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2009, 04:16:56 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I love KG, but alltime he is no Duncan. And everything you said is why besides the fact you are overrating KG's defense in comparison to Duncans Defensived skill set.

KG never lead a dominant defensive team until he met up with a group of vets and Tibs. Duncan has been the anchor to a decades worth of top 5 defensive teams with all different players around him. Duncan is a far superior post defender, KG gets killed defending stronger guys in the post. KG is however one of the greatest help defenders / pick and roll defenders I have ever seen.

  When's Duncan ever been on a team like some of the Minny teams? When has he played without vets? When was KG ever paired with defenders like Robinson or Bowen? In effect, you're saying that since Duncan was always on teams with more veterans and better defenders than KG until last year that he's a much better defender. KG's defense is not overrated, and it's not worse than Duncan's.

Yes it is and if you have been watching for the past decade it is pretty evident. San Antonio's cast has been allowed to built, grow, and evolve around Duncans defense. Saying that San Antonio has all these great defenders is a testiment to how solid of a defensive anchor Duncan is. Bruce Bowen wasnt a defensive master until he got on a team with Duncan. And the Robinson issue is way over blown to try and prove a point, TD had 3 seasons of a healthy Robinson, but has had the Spurs as a top defensive team for 13 years. Defense is built from the middle out, and KG doesnt control the middle. He is a very average post defender.

Every arguement for KG is the same, he didnt have the same players that Duncan had. Who is to say, it is an arguement that can not be substantiated. The only thing that can be is overall performance and the performance of their team in this team sport - where everything is built around your "foundation" players.

KG needs a Perk like presence for his teams to be at their best defensively and for him to be allowed to affect the team defensive scheme to the best of his ability. There is nothing wrong with that

The larger point is, TD would NEVER be on a team like some of those Minny teams b/c of what he brings to the table as an offensive and defensive force allowing for role players to only have to play their roles, where KG doesnt have all of those same abilities.

San Antonio with KG does not win the titles they did with Duncan - that is my opinion

  I stopped reading at "if you have been watching for the past decade it is pretty evident".

That is your loss I suppose. The sad part is I like KG more then Duncan but your argument is doesnt seem to be based on anything more then "forget all the actual facts, stats and games you have watched - prove it to me by using some other means"

  As opposed to "TD was on better defensive teams, and I'm probably the only one on this blog that actually watches the NBA on tv". Where are the facts and stats that show that Duncan's teammates were no better defenders than Garnett's teammates? Where are all the facts and stats that show that Duncan's a better defender than Garnett? Because your original post didn't imply that you had any actual facts or stats.