Hornets Regret Signing Posey Already?

[gar]

You could see Posey's defense starting to decline toward the end of last season. He played a lot of mind games and definitely was disruptive; but he has already lost a bit of his mobility.

[BballTim]

I've yet to see how a 6-7mil contract for a bench player is going to be a huge detriment to our team in 2011...

  That's because you don't have to sign the paychecks. Neither do people who refer to Wyc as cheap even though he has one of the highest payrolls in the league. Consider that if NO is under the luxury tax then Posey's costing them 1/2 what he would cost us and they still don't want to pay him.

[Jon]

I'd make a deal for him a heartbeat, the 4th years be [dang]ed.  The C's need help this year and there might not be anything worth playing for 3 years from now. 

And this is why I'm glad Danny is the GM and not any of us.  Exhibit 1.

And what exactly is the risk of having Posey on the books in 2011-2012 season?  Allen will be going on 37, KG 36, and Pierce 35.  Is there a chance we're still contending?  Sure.  But not nearly as good of a one as we have now. 

If Ainge has another way to add a piece without taking up room in 2011-2012, I'm all for it.  But with every year he lets slip by, the chance of one of the Big Three getting a serious, career-ending injury grows.  If the C's lose a close game 7 this year, I think we have Ainge to blame for kidding himself that the C's will be good enough for financial flexibility to matter in 2011-2012.   

[CoachBo]

Of course it isn't a risk.

It's a bigger risk to pinch pennies the way Danny and Wyc did this summer, then throw a few of them away on people like Paddy O'Blount.

If Ainge is thinking more about 2011 than winning a title this year, he needs to move on. That's idiotic.

[Mr October]

I'd make a deal for him a heartbeat, the 4th years be [dang]ed.  The C's need help this year and there might not be anything worth playing for 3 years from now. 

And this is why I'm glad Danny is the GM and not any of us.  Exhibit 1.

And what exactly is the risk of having Posey on the books in 2011-2012 season?  Allen will be going on 37, KG 36, and Pierce 35.  Is there a chance we're still contending?  Sure.  But not nearly as good of a one as we have now. 

If Ainge has another way to add a piece without taking up room in 2011-2012, I'm all for it.  But with every year he lets slip by, the chance of one of the Big Three getting a serious, career-ending injury grows.  If the C's lose a close game 7 this year, I think we have Ainge to blame for kidding himself that the C's will be good enough for financial flexibility to matter in 2011-2012.   

Singing Posey decreases the Celtics flexibility to sign FA in 2009, 2010 and 2011 (or flip some expiring 2010 deals next year to a team looking to dump a quality player)

off the top of my head example: Scal, TA, House for Chris Kaman

Currently the Celtics are poised to do some retooling in the next year or two to either go for another run with Pierce and Garnett, or make moves for the future.

Heck with out Posey's 4th year in 2011, the C's are poised to go after 1-2 max level free agents.

The point is that without Posey's long deal, the C's have flexibility.

I'm going to reserve my judgement on the Posey decision until 2 years from now.

[Mr October]

I've yet to see how a 6-7mil contract for a bench player is going to be a huge detriment to our team in 2011...

  That's because you don't have to sign the paychecks. Neither do people who refer to Wyc as cheap even though he has one of the highest payrolls in the league. Consider that if NO is under the luxury tax then Posey's costing them 1/2 what he would cost us and they still don't want to pay him.

Right. Wyc isn't Mark Cuban, James Dolan or Paul Allen. Even still the Celtics have the 5th highest payroll in the NBA. Next year they might even end up spending more. They're going to want some financial relief in a couple years, and the ability to retool.

[TrueGreen]

This saves them money in both the long and short term:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2367~3019~1021~1709~671&teams=3~3~3~2~2&te=&cash=

Of course, I'm sure that Danny still doesn't want to take on Posey's salary commitment, but it would upgrade us at two positions.  The only player in that deal I'd miss is Scal.

I haven't really seen Pose play this year except for that one game here. The simple answer for NO is to buy out Pose, put him on waivers and let us get him at minimum salary. Of course this won't happen.

[BballTim]

Of course it isn't a risk.

It's a bigger risk to pinch pennies the way Danny and Wyc did this summer, then throw a few of them away on people like Paddy O'Blount.

If Ainge is thinking more about 2011 than winning a title this year, he needs to move on. That's idiotic.

  Spending all that money on Posey would have been idiotic.

  Is there a limit to how much money Posey's worth? Would you pay him $10 million a year? $12 million? $15 million? At what point does it become sound budgetary philosophy? At what point does it cease to become pinching pennies?

  Car salesmen must love seeing you. I don't care how much it costs! I don't care if I'll be paying for it after it ceases to be useful! I just have to have it! Where do I sign?

[liam]

This saves them money in both the long and short term:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2367~3019~1021~1709~671&teams=3~3~3~2~2&te=&cash=

Of course, I'm sure that Danny still doesn't want to take on Posey's salary commitment, but it would upgrade us at two positions.  The only player in that deal I'd miss is Scal.

I haven't really seen Pose play this year except for that one game here. The simple answer for NO is to buy out Pose, put him on waivers and let us get him at minimum salary. Of course this won't happen.

Posey looks pretty beat this year. He did not play that many minutes last season and I think it really helped him in the playoffs.

[CoachBo]

Of course it isn't a risk.

It's a bigger risk to pinch pennies the way Danny and Wyc did this summer, then throw a few of them away on people like Paddy O'Blount.

If Ainge is thinking more about 2011 than winning a title this year, he needs to move on. That's idiotic.

  Spending all that money on Posey would have been idiotic.

  Is there a limit to how much money Posey's worth? Would you pay him $10 million a year? $12 million? $15 million? At what point does it become sound budgetary philosophy? At what point does it cease to become pinching pennies?

  Car salesmen must love seeing you. I don't care how much it costs! I don't care if I'll be paying for it after it ceases to be useful! I just have to have it! Where do I sign?

Do you have anything but these hysterical strawmen?

The goal of this team for this season, next season and perhaps one more MUST be a title. I'm not sure how anyone can offer an intellectual defense for any alleged planning for 2011 and beyond at the expense of this season - which in all likelihood didn't happen at all. It makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER to make the Garnett and Allen deals if you're not going to maximize the windows of their prime to win multpile titles. THAT'S sound budgetary philosophy, not an Internet-driven reach in a futile attempt to rationalize your viewpoint.

This board has been innundated with this hysterical Fantasy Island innuendo, making it sound like Posey's going to make $20M a year. Check again. It's a little bit less than that.

Face it: Ainge got caught with his pants down pinching pennies on a small contract that will have little or no bearing on the future of this basketball team. Once he got worked by New Orleans, he thought he could outsmart the league by resigning Tony the Turnover Allen. The reality is the only person Ainge outsmarted was himself, because the versatility and multiple skillsets Posey brought to this team have not been replaced.

That's not the biggest mistake Ainge made this summer. The idiotic notion that O'Blount could even begin to approximate PJ Brown's contributions was the winner of that booby prize.


This nonsense that Posey's contract would break this basketball team is ridiculous.

[BballTim]

Of course it isn't a risk.

It's a bigger risk to pinch pennies the way Danny and Wyc did this summer, then throw a few of them away on people like Paddy O'Blount.

If Ainge is thinking more about 2011 than winning a title this year, he needs to move on. That's idiotic.

  Spending all that money on Posey would have been idiotic.

  Is there a limit to how much money Posey's worth? Would you pay him $10 million a year? $12 million? $15 million? At what point does it become sound budgetary philosophy? At what point does it cease to become pinching pennies?

  Car salesmen must love seeing you. I don't care how much it costs! I don't care if I'll be paying for it after it ceases to be useful! I just have to have it! Where do I sign?

Do you have anything but these hysterical strawmen?

  Ok, the car stuff was meant to be funny, but the other question was serious. What if Posey wanted $10 million to $12 million for 4 years? Would you have signed him? Would anyone have signed him? Would you pay him whatever he wanted up to a max contract in order to slightly increase our chances of winning a title? How many millions would you pay for the 2 or so productive years you'd get out of him? Seriously.

The goal of this team for this season, next season and perhaps one more MUST be a title. I'm not sure how anyone can offer an intellectual defense for any alleged planning for 2011 and beyond at the expense of this season - which in all likelihood didn't happen at all. It makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER to make the Garnett and Allen deals if you're not going to maximize the windows of their prime to win multpile titles. THAT'S sound budgetary philosophy, not an Internet-driven reach in a futile attempt to rationalize your viewpoint.

  So you're saying that if we don't win another title that it made no sense whatsoever to trade for Ray and KG?

  And what does "an Internet-driven reach" mean?

This board has been innundated with this hysterical Fantasy Island innuendo, making it sound like Posey's going to make $20M a year. Check again. It's a little bit less than that.

  I always thought the hysteria was on the side of all the hand-wringing and panicking all summer when Danny let Posey go. Weren't we supposed to finish well off last year's pace and have the big three play a ruinous amount of minutes during the regular season?

Face it: Ainge got caught with his pants down pinching pennies on a small contract that will have little or no bearing on the future of this basketball team. Once he got worked by New Orleans, he thought he could outsmart the league by resigning Tony the Turnover Allen. The reality is the only person Ainge outsmarted was himself, because the versatility and multiple skillsets Posey brought to this team have not been replaced.

   Didn't this thread arise because the team that "worked" Ainge is trying to get out from under that "tiny" contract? And since the team's doing as well as it did last year and backup small forward is 2nd or 3rd in line in terms of need it's hard to say it was a huge mistake.

That's not the biggest mistake Ainge made this summer. The idiotic notion that O'Blount could even begin to approximate PJ Brown's contributions was the winner of that booby prize.

  It might be an idiotic notion if Ainge held it. I'm pretty sure that he said that POB wasn't ready to contribute and that we'd probably need another big for the playoffs.

[tenn_smoothie]

James Posey is what you call a "final piece". He is the guy you add to an elite team to push them over the top and get them a ring. He does the little things that you need someone to do if you want to get a ring. However, you need to have the proper core players as well. Your team must already be excellent for James Posey to make an important difference. The Hornets are not excellent; they are not elite. That's why Posey hasn't helped them. I would regret signing him to such a long deal too if I felt like my team wasn't good enough to compete for a ring.

excellent analysis of the value of a unique player like posey.  i believe he put the Celtics over the top last season. think about it - this Celtic team is not that gifted offensively ........ they can struggle to score at times ....... just think how easy points came to the Bird teams and even the Cowens' teams.

the current team's genius is their team defense, which to me is beautiful to watch. but they are missing a scoring punch off the bench ........ and i'm with Coach Bo - what Ainge was thinking worrying about 2011 is beyond me.

[wahz]

Of course it isn't a risk.

It's a bigger risk to pinch pennies the way Danny and Wyc did this summer, then throw a few of them away on people like Paddy O'Blount.

If Ainge is thinking more about 2011 than winning a title this year, he needs to move on. That's idiotic.

He was indeed giving more weight to then than now. It was goofy last summer and its goofy now. Why everyone couldn't see that is also bizarre. We'd have been solid for 3 years and had a weak year and not been a factor in the 2010 free agents and we won't be anyway. Has Danny ever had any sensible explanation for not signing pose but then signing house, tony and paddy?? I mean one that made any sense for the next two years?

[winsomme]

I've yet to see how a 6-7mil contract for a bench player is going to be a huge detriment to our team in 2011...

  That's because you don't have to sign the paychecks. Neither do people who refer to Wyc as cheap even though he has one of the highest payrolls in the league. Consider that if NO is under the luxury tax then Posey's costing them 1/2 what he would cost us and they still don't want to pay him.

So are you saying the Cs are going to be under the luxury tax in 2011 by not signing Pose?

Plus, in 2010 and 2011, Pose would be signed already, so it wouldn't be his salary that you'd be doubling, it would be the players that we signed that season that we would be doubling. Using the other logic would be like arguing that we are paying Scals 7 mil this year...

Look, I don't think Wyc is cheap. I think they just misread the market on Posey. Does it make good business sense to not pay Pose more than he is worth on the open market? Sure.

I don't fault them for trying to get Posey for less years or money. they just got ambushed by NO at the 11th hour. My basic feeling is that they did not have a chance to match and would have if given that chance.

you know, the people who keep pushing this "not signing the paychecks" angle never take into consideration the cost of either not winning another Title or not even making it back to the Finals.

there is a huge financial incentive for this team to get another Title.

I, along with the rest of us, saw that Wyc interview and that IMO is the best evidence that the luxury tax is not the focus of this ownership.

[winsomme]

I've yet to see how a 6-7mil contract for a bench player is going to be a huge detriment to our team in 2011...

  That's because you don't have to sign the paychecks. Neither do people who refer to Wyc as cheap even though he has one of the highest payrolls in the league. Consider that if NO is under the luxury tax then Posey's costing them 1/2 what he would cost us and they still don't want to pay him.

Right. Wyc isn't Mark Cuban, James Dolan or Paul Allen. Even still the Celtics have the 5th highest payroll in the NBA. Next year they might even end up spending more. They're going to want some financial relief in a couple years, and the ability to retool.

You mean like the Pistons are doing now with their 1 Title...?

That DET team is the best evidence for going hard after the Title while you have the core together because positioning for the future is dicey business at best.

And CLE is clearly better this year and primed to make a big move coming up here.

This is turning into a big time chess match.