Statistics as they related to defense (split from game thread)

[Eja117]

I like Gomes, but I'm glad he is not on our team. The guy plays no defense. Never has, never will.

I thought he got 4 steals.

[Eja117]

Steals =/= Defense

So it equals offense?

[xmuscularghandix]

Steals =/= Defense

So it equals offense?

Steals isn't defense, what happens when Rondo goes for steals and doesn't get it? yea thats right he sends his man into the paint uncontested.

Steals are a bad defenders form of defense.

[KCattheStripe]

 I thought Gomes played good defense against PP.  Pierce just was determined to day and when he's like that no one's going to stop him.

 I think the guy who doesn't play defense is Jefferson and that's a big reason why he got over looked for the All-star team.

Didn't Al Jeff Get four blocks?

[Eja117]

Steals =/= Defense

So it equals offense?

Steals isn't defense, what happens when Rondo goes for steals and doesn't get it? yea thats right he sends his man into the paint uncontested.

Steals are a bad defenders form of defense.

Well yes and no. Forcing to's and/or bad opponent fg% as a result of harrassment is definitely a form of defense.   He also had a block.

[Fafnir]

Steals =/= Defense

So it equals offense?

Steals isn't defense, what happens when Rondo goes for steals and doesn't get it? yea thats right he sends his man into the paint uncontested.

Steals are a bad defenders form of defense.

Well yes and no. Forcing to's and/or bad opponent fg% as a result of harrassment is definitely a form of defense.   He also had a block.

Blocks and steals are not indicative of how well he played defense is the point. They're good things when they happen, but often they're the result of poor initial defensive position or effort.

Gomes isn't a good defense player but he's gotten better.

[Eja117]

Steals =/= Defense

So it equals offense?

Steals isn't defense, what happens when Rondo goes for steals and doesn't get it? yea thats right he sends his man into the paint uncontested.

Steals are a bad defenders form of defense.

Well yes and no. Forcing to's and/or bad opponent fg% as a result of harrassment is definitely a form of defense.   He also had a block.

Blocks and steals are not indicative of how well he played defense is the point. They're good things when they happen, but often they're the result of poor initial defensive position or effort.

Gomes isn't a good defense player but he's gotten better.

So I guess nothing is indicative of good defense. How can good plays be the result of bad positioning?   "Well coach. I didn't get the steal or the block and the other guy made the shot or got an assist cause I wasn't trying to make a play, but I had good positioning?"

Nobody keeps stats of the best positioners.

[KCattheStripe]

Steals =/= Defense

So it equals offense?

Steals isn't defense, what happens when Rondo goes for steals and doesn't get it? yea thats right he sends his man into the paint uncontested.

Steals are a bad defenders form of defense.

Well yes and no. Forcing to's and/or bad opponent fg% as a result of harrassment is definitely a form of defense.   He also had a block.

Blocks and steals are not indicative of how well he played defense is the point. They're good things when they happen, but often they're the result of poor initial defensive position or effort.

Gomes isn't a good defense player but he's gotten better.

Blocks are often a result of someone else's poor defensive effort.

[Eja117]

Steals =/= Defense

So it equals offense?

Steals isn't defense, what happens when Rondo goes for steals and doesn't get it? yea thats right he sends his man into the paint uncontested.

Steals are a bad defenders form of defense.

Well yes and no. Forcing to's and/or bad opponent fg% as a result of harrassment is definitely a form of defense.   He also had a block.

Blocks and steals are not indicative of how well he played defense is the point. They're good things when they happen, but often they're the result of poor initial defensive position or effort.

Gomes isn't a good defense player but he's gotten better.

Blocks are often a result of someone else's poor defensive effort.

Well yes and no. If Rondo harrasses the hell out of Randy Foye, who then gets by him, but is flustered enough that Perk or KG get a block I'm not so sure that's true. Especially if at the end of the game Foye shot like 3 for 14 and Rondo had 2 steals. I wouldn't think it's a result of poor effort on the part of the guy that gets the block

[Fafnir]

Steals =/= Defense

So it equals offense?

Steals isn't defense, what happens when Rondo goes for steals and doesn't get it? yea thats right he sends his man into the paint uncontested.

Steals are a bad defenders form of defense.

Well yes and no. Forcing to's and/or bad opponent fg% as a result of harrassment is definitely a form of defense.   He also had a block.

Blocks and steals are not indicative of how well he played defense is the point. They're good things when they happen, but often they're the result of poor initial defensive position or effort.

Gomes isn't a good defense player but he's gotten better.

So I guess nothing is indicative of good defense. How can good plays be the result of bad positioning?   "Well coach. I didn't get the steal or the block and the other guy made the shot or got an assist cause I wasn't trying to make a play, but I had good positioning?"

Nobody keeps stats of the best positioners.

The only box score stat that says much about positioning and effort is rebounding. And even that doesn't say how well you rotate.

That is why defense is so underrated by most casual fans. Its hard to quantify unless you watch a lot of BBall.

And you hypothetical is silly. What usually happens is a player gambles for a steal four times in the passing lane and gets one layup out of it. The other three times it gives up an easy shot. Try explaining how you were "trying to make a play" to your coach then.

[Fafnir]

Steals =/= Defense

So it equals offense?

Steals isn't defense, what happens when Rondo goes for steals and doesn't get it? yea thats right he sends his man into the paint uncontested.

Steals are a bad defenders form of defense.

Well yes and no. Forcing to's and/or bad opponent fg% as a result of harrassment is definitely a form of defense.   He also had a block.

Blocks and steals are not indicative of how well he played defense is the point. They're good things when they happen, but often they're the result of poor initial defensive position or effort.

Gomes isn't a good defense player but he's gotten better.

Blocks are often a result of someone else's poor defensive effort.

Well yes and no. If Rondo harrasses the hell out of Randy Foye, who then gets by him, but is flustered enough that Perk or KG get a block I'm not so sure that's true. Especially if at the end of the game Foye shot like 3 for 14 and Rondo had 2 steals. I wouldn't think it's a result of poor effort on the part of the guy that gets the block

No its not. But weakside shot blocking often is the result of a poor defensive play. Or even poor defense by the shot blocker. If you can get to the spot and seal the lane that is usually the better play than looming for a shot block.

[Eja117]

Steals =/= Defense

So it equals offense?

Steals isn't defense, what happens when Rondo goes for steals and doesn't get it? yea thats right he sends his man into the paint uncontested.

Steals are a bad defenders form of defense.

Well yes and no. Forcing to's and/or bad opponent fg% as a result of harrassment is definitely a form of defense.   He also had a block.

Blocks and steals are not indicative of how well he played defense is the point. They're good things when they happen, but often they're the result of poor initial defensive position or effort.

Gomes isn't a good defense player but he's gotten better.

So I guess nothing is indicative of good defense. How can good plays be the result of bad positioning?   "Well coach. I didn't get the steal or the block and the other guy made the shot or got an assist cause I wasn't trying to make a play, but I had good positioning?"

Nobody keeps stats of the best positioners.

The only box score stat that says much about positioning and effort is rebounding. And even that doesn't say how well you rotate.

That is why defense is so underrated by most casual fans. Its hard to quantify unless you watch a lot of BBall.

And you hypothetical is silly. What usually happens is a player gambles for a steal four times in the passing lane and gets one layup out of it. The other three times it gives up an easy shot. Try explaining how you were "trying to make a play" to your coach then.

Really? So you think Rondo allows lots of easy shots and other players really look forward to playing him?  Like the other day when he held Jason Kidd to nothing and the way neither guard for the Wolves did anything today?

[Eja117]

So the top guys in steals this year are Chris Paul, Rondo, Kidd, Wade, Lebron, Chalmers, Gerald Wallace, Iguodala, Ariza, and Caron Butler.

The top blocks guys are D Howard, Camby, Turiaf, Brook Lopez, Bynum, Duncan, Daelembert, and Okafor

So I am to conclude these are the worst defenders in the league and the guys with zero blocks and steals are the best because they are the best positioners who probably always seal off the lane?

[Roy Hobbs]

So the top guys in steals this year are Chris Paul, Rondo, Kidd, Wade, Lebron, Chalmers, Gerald Wallace, Iguodala, Ariza, and Caron Butler.

The top blocks guys are D Howard, Camby, Turiaf, Brook Lopez, Bynum, Duncan, Daelembert, and Okafor

So I am to conclude these are the worst defenders in the league and the guys with zero blocks and steals are the best because they are the best positioners who probably always seal off the lane?

I don't think anybody is arguing that steals and blocks are irrelevant to good defense.  However, look at your own list.  Do you consider Jason Kidd to be a good defender at this stage of his career?  Is Turiaf the third best defensive big man in the game?  Is Chris Andersen a top-four defender?  Is Al Jefferson a good defender, despite being #12 in blocks?  Of course not.  They have good statistics, but aren't top-tier defenders.

On the other hand, there are plenty of excellent defenders who do have good stats (Rondo, Kirilenko, Igoudala, etc.)  It's very difficult to quantify defense statistically, which is why observation is so important.

[Jaycelt]

I'm sure no one looks forward to playing Rondo but the fact is that his teammates many times have to bail him out because of his gambling for steals.  He is not good at keeping his man in front of him and that many times results in someone elses man getting an open shot do to rotations.
This is what absolutely drives me crazy about anyone talking about one guy shutting another guy out or so and so letting his man light us up from outside.  That never EVER happens.  Defense is a team games when played correctly and the Celtics do it very, very well. If someone is open for an outside shot it's because someone else didn't keep his man from penetrating and then a third guy was late in rotation.