Ainge says Red Kept the Big Three too Long

[davemonsterband]

It's common sense guys, there's no rule to it. If someone's not projected to be worth his dollar value he'll be offloaded. I'm not old enough to talk about Red and Danny and THE Big Three but I do know enough to blindly trust DA at this point and not worry about deals like this. It all comes down to cap space and depth, not the big three themselves. If the holes can't plugged enough to fully contend for a championship three straight years of expiring contracts are a hot commodity. Without looking at actual contracts trading Ray for a Mike Redd, if Mil wanted to free some space, would be a very palpable option. Three guys can't be getting paid around 20 million forever, if you're putting them in a position to win a championship every year they're there that's loyalty, not keeping them around til they become dead weight. Chauncey Billups is a great example of that, right or wrong for Det, they did him no wrong personally. A no brainer's a no brainer, if Danny bites on one, for anybody, he has my full support.

[Celts17Pride]

The Celtics will resign Ray Allen & Pierce to the length of KG's contract. KG's contract ends in 2011/2012, I fully expect the Celtics to keep Paul, Ray & KG until 2012.

The Big 3 are going to go out together IMO. If you traded one now the other two would be ticked off. I just don't see the Celtics upsetting the chemistry they have right now. Wyc has even come out and said in the past that all three will retire Celtics.

We'll see but I wouldn't hold my breath on a Big 3 trade.

[moiso]

It's common sense guys, there's no rule to it. If someone's not projected to be worth his dollar value he'll be offloaded. I'm not old enough to talk about Red and Danny and THE Big Three but I do know enough to blindly trust DA at this point and not worry about deals like this. It all comes down to cap space and depth, not the big three themselves. If the holes can't plugged enough to fully contend for a championship three straight years of expiring contracts are a hot commodity. Without looking at actual contracts trading Ray for a Mike Redd, if Mil wanted to free some space, would be a very palpable option. Three guys can't be getting paid around 20 million forever, if you're putting them in a position to win a championship every year they're there that's loyalty, not keeping them around til they become dead weight. Chauncey Billups is a great example of that, right or wrong for Det, they did him no wrong personally. A no brainer's a no brainer, if Danny bites on one, for anybody, he has my full support.

good logical post.  I agree 100%.

[Thruthelookingglass]

The question is, does it make sense to worry about four years from now, or should you maximize your opportunity to win in the future?  I'm of the latter mindset:  since we have three elite players who are approaching the end of their primes, you need to do everything in your power to win now.  You don't worry about down the road, and you don't worry about trading them away.

I completely agree with the rest of your comment, but I think that Ainge, Doc and our current players have given the organization the luxury of planning for the future.  The Celtics are not desperate and can afford to look ahead a little bit. 

[Brendan]

I think it also depends on salaries and what's out there. When KG re-did his deal, he took significantly less money on the extra years, if you are Ray Allen, comfortable in Boston, and the team looks comfortable, how much of a home town discount do you give? Ditto Pierce.

I'm fine with a move of one of the big 3, but not this year.

Actually this year was the year we were supposed to peak, with Rondo and KP developing, the big 3 at the top of their games, the team would have gel'd and we'd be a FA destination. The thing that didn't happen was becoming a FA destination.

[Chief]

The Celtics will resign Ray Allen & Pierce to the length of KG's contract. KG's contract ends in 2011/2012, I fully expect the Celtics to keep Paul, Ray & KG until 2012.

The Big 3 are going to go out together IMO. If you traded one now the other two would be ticked off. I just don't see the Celtics upsetting the chemistry they have right now. Wyc has even come out and said in the past that all three will retire Celtics.
We'll see but I wouldn't hold my breath on a Big 3 trade.

I've never heard or read this. Anyone else?

[JBcat]

I think there are many factors here whether or not to keep the big 3 or trade any of them.  For one despite any slippage of play I think all 3 of them will age well.  Just look at Ray at age 33 he is having his best year FG% wise of his career.  He could be like a Reggie Miller and have some very good years left.  Paul is another one.  He doesn't have to rely on his athleticism to being really effective as someone say like Vince Carter has to.  Second if Rondo really accelerates to being a top tier PG it will help alleviate any worry of breaking up the big 3.  

I think it will be real interesting starting this offseason going into next year's trade deadline to see if Ray's expiring contract along with some young chips will be traded for a younger star.

[Vermont Green]

Wow, this is a pretty heavy thread for a Sunday morning.  I love it, more meat than any of the newspapers.  First, the proposed Portland/Utah trade, Portland is all set to have the next big three of Oden, Roy and Aldridge.  Their only worry is how to pay them all.  No way they need to "trade up" or whatever it is they would be doing.  In fact, in this off season, I would trade our big three for their big three straight up.  But this specific Portland trade is not the point.  The point is how long do we hold with the our big 3.  Next year there is no doubt that trades for Allen (such as the one for Redd that was mentioned) will be considered but I doubt it will go further than that.  After that, we just have to go year to year to see how it is.  You can't really plan much further than that.  I know, we didn't sign Posey becasue we didn't want a 4th year but that is different.  The Celtics should assess the big 3 one year at a time and be as smart as they can with the other players.  There is no way we can stay title contending after the big 3 no matter what we do (barring some miracle like drafting an instant all star in the second round).

[winsomme]

Of course, it's interesting to see how this philosophy is playing out with this team.  The team passed on Posey, because of how it might have impacted financial flexibility in four years.  The team signed POB and kept two rookies on the roster, despite them not making contributions to this year's team. 

The question is, does it make sense to worry about four years from now, or should you maximize your opportunity to win in the future?  I'm of the latter mindset:  since we have three elite players who are approaching the end of their primes, you need to do everything in your power to win now.  You don't worry about down the road, and you don't worry about trading them away.

i totally agree about the win now philosophy. especially when you have three of the best players in the league all with approximately the same window of opportunity. and a relatively small one at that.....

the fact that they already have shown that they are capable of winning a Title makes it even more sensible to win every Title that you can with those three..

Danny definitely expressed the desire to have cap flexibility down the road, but i'm not sure he "passed" on Posey. he certainly waited for Posey to sign elsewhere (a contract i don't believe he thought anyone was going to offer) before he made another move on the wing. That is to say, if Pose signed with us, I don't think they would have offered TA that contract.

If DA had passed on Pose, it's more likely that he would have gone after another guy. I think he just thought he was going get him at his price.

the other point, and this is just a personal feeling, is that i don't mind watching a team rebuild. So i really don't see why they would have to be obsessed with still being a playoff team in 4 years.

personally, i'd rather a team rebuild than be hanging on to an 8th seed barely part of the playoff picture....

[ManUp]

I don't think our Big 3 will have any real value when we decide we are ready to trade them. When this team stops being dominant the Big 3 will enter the "has been" zone. No young team is going to trade talented players for over the hill max contract players. At that point we'll be the ones that have to offer young talent along with the guys to get some decent value. I think we'd be better off letting their contracts expire and then going after a big free agent in 2011 or 2012. By that time I'm sure a few guys will have established themselves as stars.

[JBcat]

Of course, it's interesting to see how this philosophy is playing out with this team.  The team passed on Posey, because of how it might have impacted financial flexibility in four years.  The team signed POB and kept two rookies on the roster, despite them not making contributions to this year's team. 

The question is, does it make sense to worry about four years from now, or should you maximize your opportunity to win in the future?  I'm of the latter mindset:  since we have three elite players who are approaching the end of their primes, you need to do everything in your power to win now.  You don't worry about down the road, and you don't worry about trading them away.

i totally agree about the win now philosophy. especially when you have three of the best players in the league all with approximately the same window of opportunity. and a relatively small one at that.....

the fact that they already have shown that they are capable of winning a Title makes it even more sensible to win every Title that you can with those three..

Danny definitely expressed the desire to have cap flexibility down the road, but i'm not sure he "passed" on Posey. he certainly waited for Posey to sign elsewhere (a contract i don't believe he thought anyone was going to offer) before he made another move on the wing. That is to say, if Pose signed with us, I don't think they would have offered TA that contract.

If DA had passed on Pose, it's more likely that he would have gone after another guy. I think he just thought he was going get him at his price.

the other point, and this is just a personal feeling, is that i don't mind watching a team rebuild. So i really don't see why they would have to be obsessed with still being a playoff team in 4 years.

personally, i'd rather a team rebuild than be hanging on to an 8th seed barely part of the playoff picture....

I agree with what you say here in the end.  If we could reload with say a younger star and still be a top tier team then do it or go totally the other way and rebuild.  You just have to reassess the situation every year to see which direction to go in or stay put and I don't think we have the answers now for even next year.   Being stuck in mediocre land several years from now with no real good young talent is not something I want to see but I don't think Danny will let that happen.

and yes I did hear as well Wyc say a while back he would like the big 3 to retire as Celtics which is interesting.

[nickagneta]

Of course, it's interesting to see how this philosophy is playing out with this team.  The team passed on Posey, because of how it might have impacted financial flexibility in four years.  The team signed POB and kept two rookies on the roster, despite them not making contributions to this year's team. 

The question is, does it make sense to worry about four years from now, or should you maximize your opportunity to win in the future?  I'm of the latter mindset:  since we have three elite players who are approaching the end of their primes, you need to do everything in your power to win now.  You don't worry about down the road, and you don't worry about trading them away.

i totally agree about the win now philosophy. especially when you have three of the best players in the league all with approximately the same window of opportunity. and a relatively small one at that.....

the fact that they already have shown that they are capable of winning a Title makes it even more sensible to win every Title that you can with those three..

Danny definitely expressed the desire to have cap flexibility down the road, but i'm not sure he "passed" on Posey. he certainly waited for Posey to sign elsewhere (a contract i don't believe he thought anyone was going to offer) before he made another move on the wing. That is to say, if Pose signed with us, I don't think they would have offered TA that contract.

If DA had passed on Pose, it's more likely that he would have gone after another guy. I think he just thought he was going get him at his price.
the other point, and this is just a personal feeling, is that i don't mind watching a team rebuild. So i really don't see why they would have to be obsessed with still being a playoff team in 4 years.
personally, i'd rather a team rebuild than be hanging on to an 8th seed barely part of the playoff picture....

In response to the red comment, I think what you say is true and I think that is where Danny erred this summer. The decision should have been Posey or not at what it took to get him. Pay the man or pay someone else. Either give him that four year MLE fully loaded early on and tie him up or give it to someone else. Roger Mason would have looked a lot better in Green than Tony Allen this year.

But instead, as you admit, Danny tried to be frugal or he misread the market and it cost him Posey, and more importantly, it cost him time. Time that went by while other very good players signed elsewhere. I still think as currently constructed this time has one of the best chances in the league to win the title this year, but I don't think Dannt did Doc or any of his players any favors by wasting his full MLE this year by not spending all or most of it on one really good player that would help and be his sixth man off the bench.

In response to the blue quote, many Celtics fans are fans no matter what and won't mind seeing a rebuild process after winning some titles. But not all. I am positive that the front office thinks it better to remain contenders for a long time, generating ositive revenues than it would be to take a nose dive into rebuilding that could lead to 22 years of nothing and people and money making opportunities leaving in droves.

[CoachBo]

Why would Portland trade Roy and Aldridge for a couple of years of KG, especially when it leaves them with little talent to surround him with?  Deng + KG isn't going to come close to a championship.

Also, Kirilenko still has a bad contract, and has cracked under pressure in the past.  That particular part of the trade, I'd pass on.

I think Ainge's "trade the Big Three" philosophy is flawed.  It's unlikely that trading any of the Big Three would have increased the Celts chances at a championship, even if it would have delayed the rebuilding process for awhile.  The team did the right thing by keeping its core together as long as possible; they pretty much stayed in legit title contention until Larry retired, which is as good as they could have done had they traded one of them.

Of course, it's interesting to see how this philosophy is playing out with this team.  The team passed on Posey, because of how it might have impacted financial flexibility in four years.  The team signed POB and kept two rookies on the roster, despite them not making contributions to this year's team. 

The question is, does it make sense to worry about four years from now, or should you maximize your opportunity to win in the future?  I'm of the latter mindset:  since we have three elite players who are approaching the end of their primes, you need to do everything in your power to win now.  You don't worry about down the road, and you don't worry about trading them away.

Which is precisely the vexing element of Danny's general inaction and lack of success this summer.

It makes NO sense whatsoever to make the deals that were made in the summer of 2007 - especially moving Jefferson - to revert back to pinching pennies a summer later. You bought three or four years of a championship window, now maximize it. Danny thus far failed to maximize anything last summer.

And Nick, this is where we disagree. No competent 5, no shooter, no title. And no Eastern Conference title, either.

[amenhotep04]

i think ainge has a good point, but hindsight is 20/20.  i think teams were a lot more loyal to its players, and vice versa, back then.  nowadays, superstar players rarely stick with one team their entire career. (and b4 anyone says anything, i realize chief played for other teams)

Actually I was quoting you on purpose to suggest simply that Red had planned on breaking up the 'big three' either after the 86 season, or during the 87 season. Yes, I agree that players stayed with their teams longer than today, but loyalty was wrapped around winning.  Red knew that winning meant moving players.  Prior to the salary cap Red was known as a shrewd business person when it came to making trades.  Red made some great trades, and the McHale trade would have been a great one.

No, not true.  It was pretty common knowledge then that Bias's death kept everything in tact for the Celtics.  Bird was going to move to the four, Bias would play the three, and McHale was going to get traded.  Bias was more or less a taller version of MJ. The Celtics would have been great for many more years.

At that point, it is impossible to know who we would have drafted because trading McHale would have got multiple picks for the Celtics.  Since there was no salary cap at that time, there would have been no need to get salary back for him.

i think u meant to quote someone else, i made no mention of bias at all.  

my post was pretty clear (i thought) in stating that teams back then tended to be more loyal to its players, and vice versa, and it was more common for superstar players to play with one organization during their career.  that was the only point i was trying to make, which was more of an observation.

personally, i would have looked at trading one or two of the big 3 after the 1988 season.  however, it is unclear what offers were on the table and if they would have helped us.  red may have looked around to make a deal but didnt receive an offer worth the trading for.

[BudweiserCeltic]

My belief is that while your team is strong as it is, it's the perfect time to "rebuild" instead of filling yourself with old guys that might simply improve your team marginally. You invest in key veterans for short term purposes, and invest in young promising guys with the rest of the roster. Pierce, Allen, and Garnett will be contributors even while aging, the extent of it is up to debate. The way you prolong their window is by investing in youth while they still are playing good and contending (this doesn't mean you forgo building your rotation properly).

For as good as Posey is, his contributions to this team have been widely exaggerated. By signing Posey more probably than not, we'd still have our Center problems to fill. By signing Posey, we'd still have our back-up PG problem. The difference is, that right now we still have some money left to invest in those positions of need, while with signing Posey we would've not. The year is not over. We're at the halfway point. People here have some kind of fetish for drawing conclusions prematurely, and it really boggles my mind.