Author Topic: Maggette is Available  (Read 12591 times)

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Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2009, 08:27:56 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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If a title isn't worth a few million dollars to a franchise, then I fail to see the point in making the Garnett and Ray trades.
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Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2009, 08:52:25 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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If a title isn't worth a few million dollars to a franchise, then I fail to see the point in making the Garnett and Ray trades.

It's not that it's worth a few million dollars. The question is how to allocate those few million dollars.

Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2009, 09:25:45 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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First, we totally disagree about one fundamental point: This team is not better than last year's team, and the primary reason is a bench that is missing a multitude of skills fundamental to a champion - length, outside shooting and most critically, a competent backup 5.

People tend to let wins - several of them difficult over second-rate teams - delude them into a false sense of security that a badly flawed bench simply will not support in playoff crunch time. I've been clear about this on this board: This team as currently constructed will not repeat, and will not win the Eastern Conference championship.

And further, we are one Kendrick Perkins significant injury away from cratering.

It makes no sense whatsoever to me to make the Garnett and Ray Allen deals if a worry about 2011 and beyond trumps your desire to win multiple titles. It makes more sense to keep Jefferson and continue maneuvering to acquire talent, so I think you're giving Ainge and Wyc more credit than they deserve.

They went all in in the summer of 2007 to win a title, and it worked. Good for them. That investment, though, makes no sense to me at all unless you're committed to thoroughly utilizing the window of the Pierce-Garnett-Allen careers to make serious title runs.

Paul Pierce is on the record as saying the Boston Celtics are about multiple titles. Close doesn't count. Today, I'm quite uncertain that his GM and owner share that sentiment.

Danny laid an egg this summer, and I suspect it was driven by budgets and ego rather than some grand master plan.

Believe me, part of me really wants to agree with you on this, because I certainly see where you are coming from.  But when it comes down to it, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this, and we can look at it again at the end of the season.  To be completely honest I just don't have much else I can add the argument at this point, because my side of the argument lies all in hypothetical future moves, and improvements by other players.
But I will say one thing, the way Ainge handled this past summer was the exact same way he handled things the last few years.  Basically, he has stuck with his philosophy of stashing his resources until the right opportunity comes along, rather than settling too early.  That is how he ended up with Ray and Garnett, as well as Posey.  That won us a championship last year.  Some call it luck, and yes, luck is involved, but as much as it was luck, it was being prepared for when the opportunity presented itself.

It doesn't always work, and I understand how it rubs people the wrong way, but I personally don't think it is any riskier in todays NBA than signing someone to a long term contract that you are not confident they will be able to fulfill.  All it takes is one untimely injury, and you lose your championship window, and are suddenly in a much worse position to be able to "reload".
Both sides of the argument are hypothetical. Actually, yours is less hypothetical than his. Coach Bo is blaming Danny and Wyc for an outcome that hasn't even occured yet. You have some pretty solid evidence on your side: an NBA title. What tactics did Danny use to put together last year's championship roster? The same ones that Coach Bo is faulting him for using this year. If the Celtics don't land any vets, and they exit the playoffs early via the Cavs, then I'll listen to what Coach Bo is saying. But it's still January, and we don't know yet what 12 men will make up the Celtics active postseason roster, and the Celtics are 29-5. So for now, Coach Bo needs to save the accusations of penny-pinching and inflated egos.

And a couple of more things about what Coach Bo is saying. Having a budget is a reality of a sports team. It's easy to get angry at filthy rich owners for "penny-pinching", but even they don't have an unlimited amount of money to spend. Also, maintaining flexibility for future years is important whether a team is a contender or not. As far as Danny goes, I don't get the big ego thing at all. He's doing what he thinks is best for the organization. If you think he's wrong, then say he's making the wrong decision. Your assumtion that a large part of what he's doing is based on a belief that he can outsmart everyone else is unfounded, and it sounds to me like you simply don't like the guy.

These owners spent a bunch of money to land Allen and Garnett, yet some on this board want to praise them for saying no to the NBA equivalent of chump change to resign a guy whose versatility they have not approximated replacing - despite the revisionist history on this board. My issue with Danny isn't the failure to resign Posey; it's the failure to even begin to replicate the skills he brought to this team in the others he resigned.

As for the trades themselves, one of this board's great canards is that Danny traded value for Garnett and Ray. I guess that validates - in some minds - the deep and abiding love that the Celtic youth movement was held in on this and other boards, despite its abysmal failure on the floor and the fact, thus far, that none of the players traded has a well-rounded NBA game. Al Jefferson still can't defend anyone on the block, for example. But again, where are the facts? Looks more to me like Danny was in the right place at the right time for two fire sales, because you won't find a soul in the NBA who thinks the Celtics got Garnett and Ray for more than 30 cents on the dollar.

The guy did a great job in the summer of 2007. He has not done an adequate job in other summers, including the last one. He isn't the God some of you want to make him out to be, and you need look no further than the shocking lack of due diligence done on O'Blount to see that there are other factors than a "grand master plan" at work here.

There's been a lot of hopeful rhetoric from management about adding players. Fine. You certainly need to, or someone named James or Howard will be leading their teams into the Finals.

I personally don't think this team healthy is deep enough to beat Cleveland or LA. But that's subject to debate. What isn't, however, is one inescapable fact: This roster today cannot survive an injury to a starter in the playoffs. And it will happen: Perkins' shoulder, Pierce's knee.

Talk is cheap. Cheaper than passing on Posey. I believe I'll wait until the talk turns into action before falling back into blind love with Celtics management.


I kind of take issue with that statement. Literally everyone (gm's, writers, fans) knew that Seattle was skimming payroll to rebuild and move the team. Most thought that Ray's best days were behind him, he was getting older, and coming off injury. So why didn't any other GM decide it would be a good idea to scoop him up? That #5 pick was pretty valuable; it's not Danny's fault that Jeff Green is a pretty underwhelming player drafted with that spot. These types of trades happen every year, and it's skill, timing and planning, not just luck, to be in a position to take advantage of such sales. Additionally, say what you will about Al Jefferson, but he's a lock for several all-star games; that's the type of value Minnesota was looking for when it was time to trade KG. They wouldn't have dealt him without getting a piece like that in return.

Look at Chicago: they didn't have the cajones to include Deng in a swap for Kobe. They weren't proactive in putting together a package for KG. Now they're stuck with a few overpaid young pieces. It certainly takes skill and guts to make big moves in the NBA.

Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2009, 10:39:49 AM »

Offline moiso

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I don't think the C's have any interest in Maggette for that type of money.  They wanted him on a 1 year MLE deal.  If they wanted to take on that kind of salary, they would have resigned Posey.


But that was then. This is now. Ainge and Wyc assumed that Eddie & Tony in our backcourt would not surrender leads and blow games like they've been doing of late. We're pretty desperate for any quality bench addition we can get. Frankly, if Maggette can be had that easy, finances aside, you do it. We're only going to be in contending shape for so long... KG, Allen, and Pierce aren't the youngest cats around.

I disagree, we know Danny is a huge Maggette fan and always has been. I think Danny would see Maggette as the long term Ray Allen replacement after this year.

For the next two years maggette can be a 6th man. I would love to see this happen.

Maggette is paid at the level that a 20 ppg scorer should be paid


He will not be a 20 point scorer for the Celtics.  Closer to the 10-14 point range as a bench player.
I agree with this.  We don't need this selfish player for that price.  And some of us think TA is out of control when he drives to the hoop?  This guy is far worse, at least TA is open to the possibility of passing the ball.

I think he is being paid to much for what the Celtics need. 


I also think there will be no rush of team looking to trade for him.  Therefor the Celtics have time to see if anyone else becomes available.

Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2009, 10:41:51 AM »

Offline moiso

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I agree with Wideload.  We don't need this selfish injury prone player for that price.  If you guys think TA is out of control on his drives, you'll really be annoyed by this guy.  At least TA is open to the possiblity of passing the ball if he gets cut off.

Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2009, 10:57:22 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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I agree with Wideload.  We don't need this selfish injury prone player for that price.  If you guys think TA is out of control on his drives, you'll really be annoyed by this guy.  At least TA is open to the possiblity of passing the ball if he gets cut off.

Agreed.  He would have been a great player at the MLE, but he's not worth what he's making.  Besides, we'd have to trade either one of the Big 3 or half the bench to make the trade work.
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Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2009, 11:22:12 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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Players like Maggette and Larry Hughes are always available. 

Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2009, 11:49:28 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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If we were calling Golden State, I'd be more interested in Captain Jack. I recall there being some talks about him wanting out, and I'd wonder if Golden State might want out of his contract.

Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2009, 12:27:36 PM »

Offline BballTim

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As for the trades themselves, one of this board's great canards is that Danny traded value for Garnett and Ray. I guess that validates - in some minds - the deep and abiding love that the Celtic youth movement was held in on this and other boards, despite its abysmal failure on the floor and the fact, thus far, that none of the players traded has a well-rounded NBA game. Al Jefferson still can't defend anyone on the block, for example. But again, where are the facts? Looks more to me like Danny was in the right place at the right time for two fire sales, because you won't find a soul in the NBA who thinks the Celtics got Garnett and Ray for more than 30 cents on the dollar.

  The reason that those deals seem so one-sided to you is that you don't seem to have any understanding of the value of finances in the nba, either in terms of the actual worth they put on the money that they're spending or the financial flexibility that some teams covet. Wally's contract ($13M) is up this year while Ray's contract is about $35M over the next two years. Absorbing that contract has value in and of itself which, when combined with Delonte and the #5 pick (and Wally's contract) was worth Ray Allen. To put it in your terms, there was chump change involved in the deal.That insignificant detail (money) is why many productive players are traded for pennies on the dollar. KG, Gasol, AI, Ray Allen, Kurt Thomas, the list goes on and on. It happens on a regular enough basis that it shouldn't be scoffed at as a theory.

  Note: sorry about the tone, but your posts generally come off as extremely condescending.

Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2009, 12:34:04 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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As for the trades themselves, one of this board's great canards is that Danny traded value for Garnett and Ray. I guess that validates - in some minds - the deep and abiding love that the Celtic youth movement was held in on this and other boards, despite its abysmal failure on the floor and the fact, thus far, that none of the players traded has a well-rounded NBA game. Al Jefferson still can't defend anyone on the block, for example. But again, where are the facts? Looks more to me like Danny was in the right place at the right time for two fire sales, because you won't find a soul in the NBA who thinks the Celtics got Garnett and Ray for more than 30 cents on the dollar.

  The reason that those deals seem so one-sided to you is that you don't seem to have any understanding of the value of finances in the nba, either in terms of the actual worth they put on the money that they're spending or the financial flexibility that some teams covet. Wally's contract ($13M) is up this year while Ray's contract is about $35M over the next two years. Absorbing that contract has value in and of itself which, when combined with Delonte and the #5 pick (and Wally's contract) was worth Ray Allen. To put it in your terms, there was chump change involved in the deal.That insignificant detail (money) is why many productive players are traded for pennies on the dollar. KG, Gasol, AI, Ray Allen, Kurt Thomas, the list goes on and on. It happens on a regular enough basis that it shouldn't be scoffed at as a theory.

  Note: sorry about the tone, but your posts generally come off as extremely condescending.

I really don't have anything to say, but I just wanted to see this post displayed two times. TP.

Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2009, 12:41:49 PM »

Offline bdm860

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Players like Maggette and Larry Hughes are always available. 

Very true statement.  I was actually thinking of Hughes while just reading through this old thread that was somehow revived today.  I feel like every year there's a player like Hughes (or Maggette or Mike James or Ricky Davis or...) who some team signs just because he's available and the team has X amount of dollars to throw around, even though those players don't ever seem to fit in a teams long term goals.

"Well we have $8 mil in cap space and so-and-so goes for about $8 mil and is the best player on the market this year at that price, so let's sign him!"

Sometimes you get lucky by being able to use him as a trade chip later after it doesn't work out for someone(s) with a similar salary and it works (like what Cleveland did with Hughes).  But players like that I feel more often than not tend to be stop gaps that never work, let's sign him because he's the best available right now even though he doesn't really fit with what we're trying to do.

Maybe we sign Posey this last off season and repeat, but that's it.  We won two champhionships so it's cool, and it works.

But maybe we don't sign Posey this year, don't win, but next year sign Rasheed to the mid-level and win in say '10, and '11.  (I know we could theoretically sign Posey this year and still sign Sheed, but as much as it feels like it, this ain't monopoly money, and I don't recall any owner spending the mid level every year).

FYI - not comparing Posey to Hughes or Maggette, because Posey is a good fit.  I was more trying to say, don't just spend money and/or bring in a player because you can (which many teams seem to do every year).  More of an all around NBA comment, then about Posey and the C's not bringing him back. 

This is how it seems to go, the Warriors sign Maggette to "fair market value" then when he doesn't work out they trade him to some other team for 60 cents on the dollar.  Then when he doesn't work out on that other team, they have to trade him for 30 cents on the dollar.  You think you're getting a good deal, but you're really just crippling yourself in later years because those players are never the answer.  At least that's how I viewed the transactions involving guys like Larry Hughes (when he signed with Cavs) and Mark Blount (when he signed with C's) and Antoine Walker (when he signed with the Heat).
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 01:01:00 PM by bdm860 »

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Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2009, 08:13:03 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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That #5 pick was pretty valuable; it's not Danny's fault that Jeff Green is a pretty underwhelming player drafted with that spot.
It is early to sleep on Jeff Green. People are too impatient with young players sometimes. He's on a bad team that has had a lot of distractions. I'm not sure he'll ever be as effective as he was in college but he's a smart basketball player as well as talented one. I'm confident he'll improve.

I'm not sure if he'll justify being the 5th pick but I don't think he'll be a complete wash out. You get a lot of those in the lottery too. Sometimes going through past drafts is good for a laugh  ;).

Re: Maggette is Available
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2009, 09:03:23 AM »

Offline cordobes

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Jeff Green has been averaging 19 points and 7 rebounds for the last two months. And he plays defence. I wouldn't call this underwhelming. If he was a Celtic, people would ponder if he was an All-Star.

----

The difference between Posey and Maggette and the relative value of their contracts is that if New Orleans wanted to trade Posey for an expiring right now, therefor reseting their position, they could find some takers. The Warriors, I very much doubt they wouldn't have to take on some bad - even if not so bad - contracts.  Maggette was always one of my least favourite players in the league - he doesn't defend, doesn't pass the ball or, in reality, he doesn't do anything else besides jumping into people and he's made of glass -, but being completely unbiased, I'd classify his contract as one of the most toxic in the entire league.