Author Topic: The Bench is not the Problem  (Read 13975 times)

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Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2008, 10:19:13 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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No disagreement as to the number one seed, however with this current bench situation it isn't going to happen unless one of two things changes: They step up their play, or we make some trades. This lineup as it is will not carry us through the playoffs. It won't do us any good to play our starters 42 min a game and have them tired or injured for a playoff run. If that is the case a young team like the Hawks will actually beat us this year. I am all for a shake up. I'd rather not have TA or BBD see court time. Right now there is no choice though. 

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2008, 11:19:26 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Anything less than the 1 seed is an absolute disaster, totally unacceptable for a defending champ that could have largely been kept together.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2009, 12:23:38 AM »

Offline KJ33

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First, this notion that Danny screwed up the bench is really arrogant.  PJ retired, Posey got more than anyone ever thought he would, he could barely get a 1 yr deal the year before, acting like it was so easy to keep the exact same team ignores the facts.  NO does not have KG, PP and RA's contracts, when you load up like the C's did, all you can afford is a cheap bench, and luckily Posey was cheap last year.  We would not have signed anyone to that deal the year before, including Posey, so that was not going to change this year, in spite of how huge Posey was.

About the whole 2nd unit discussion, I think something that is being overlooked is that the playing of them as a unit, rather than working them in with the starters, is a regular season strategy that Doc is not wed to for the rest of the year, and certainly not in the playoffs.  The C's may make a move, or they may not, but in either case, playing all those guys, despite their flaws, either helps to identify which guys might merit mix-in status, or continue to reveal what the most glaring need is to address(even if everyone here already knows).  Pose was a known quantity who could be mixed in right away, we have nobody like that now.  Mixing in, would not allow those guys to get better as much and/or show which ones are worth promoting or discarding from the rotation. 

It is still only 33 games deep, more than 1/2 the season is left.  Doc is trying to get starters predictable minutes, while giving several bench players a chance to emerge(or not) and the C's still have the best record in the league at this point.  This is not going to be the playoff way of playing the bench, guaranteed, so how we match against other teams' second units right now is basically irrelevant.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2009, 12:43:38 AM »

Offline winsomme

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First, this notion that Danny screwed up the bench is really arrogant.  PJ retired, Posey got more than anyone ever thought he would, he could barely get a 1 yr deal the year before, acting like it was so easy to keep the exact same team ignores the facts.  NO does not have KG, PP and RA's contracts, when you load up like the C's did, all you can afford is a cheap bench, and luckily Posey was cheap last year.  We would not have signed anyone to that deal the year before, including Posey, so that was not going to change this year, in spite of how huge Posey was.

About the whole 2nd unit discussion, I think something that is being overlooked is that the playing of them as a unit, rather than working them in with the starters, is a regular season strategy that Doc is not wed to for the rest of the year, and certainly not in the playoffs.  The C's may make a move, or they may not, but in either case, playing all those guys, despite their flaws, either helps to identify which guys might merit mix-in status, or continue to reveal what the most glaring need is to address(even if everyone here already knows).  Pose was a known quantity who could be mixed in right away, we have nobody like that now.  Mixing in, would not allow those guys to get better as much and/or show which ones are worth promoting or discarding from the rotation. 

It is still only 33 games deep, more than 1/2 the season is left.  Doc is trying to get starters predictable minutes, while giving several bench players a chance to emerge(or not) and the C's still have the best record in the league at this point.  This is not going to be the playoff way of playing the bench, guaranteed, so how we match against other teams' second units right now is basically irrelevant.

i disagree that nobody thought Posey would get a contract like he did. a full MLE deal was always part of the discussion....this was debated extensively during the off season.

plus he might have taken somewhat less to play in Boston if a decent contract offer was made at the outset.

but it started to drag on and the initial offer was paltry (wasn't it something like 2 years @ 3 mil per). thus, it looked pretty doubtful that he was coming back.

i think DA was palying a game of chicken (much like Theo, et al did with Tex) and got burned.

he was trying to do too much this offseason. instead of just putting together the best team for this season, he became very preoccupied with four years down the road...

not that he shouldn't be worried about such things, but i never felt that 6-7 mil to Pose in 2012 was going to be some huge stumbling block to that years team...

anyway, C'est la vie...

hopefully now DA is seeing the effects of no Pose and will work to fill the spot.



Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2009, 01:12:33 AM »

Offline thedawg

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Doc can only do so much with his rotation with the people he has. Is it his fault TA is too inconsistent? Is it his fault Big Baby is undersized? Is it his fault House isn't a PG?

The bench is the problem.

Of course it is his problem if people are undersized, inconsistent or whatever there is.  That is called in my books: "trade scenario" and as soon as we address that situation, we might be back on the course for banner 18.  We need to do any trade that can rid us of any of the following players:

two new rookies
Pruitt
Scalabrine
even Tony Allen if possible.

We are in desperate need of a backup PG but Pruitt could be the man but Doc does not seem to trust him.  Ironically, we do need height in our team but Doc does not seem to see any use in OŽBryant in the team which puzzles me. 
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Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2009, 10:07:40 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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First, this notion that Danny screwed up the bench is really arrogant.  PJ retired, Posey got more than anyone ever thought he would, he could barely get a 1 yr deal the year before, acting like it was so easy to keep the exact same team ignores the facts.  NO does not have KG, PP and RA's contracts, when you load up like the C's did, all you can afford is a cheap bench, and luckily Posey was cheap last year.  We would not have signed anyone to that deal the year before, including Posey, so that was not going to change this year, in spite of how huge Posey was.

About the whole 2nd unit discussion, I think something that is being overlooked is that the playing of them as a unit, rather than working them in with the starters, is a regular season strategy that Doc is not wed to for the rest of the year, and certainly not in the playoffs.  The C's may make a move, or they may not, but in either case, playing all those guys, despite their flaws, either helps to identify which guys might merit mix-in status, or continue to reveal what the most glaring need is to address(even if everyone here already knows).  Pose was a known quantity who could be mixed in right away, we have nobody like that now.  Mixing in, would not allow those guys to get better as much and/or show which ones are worth promoting or discarding from the rotation. 

It is still only 33 games deep, more than 1/2 the season is left.  Doc is trying to get starters predictable minutes, while giving several bench players a chance to emerge(or not) and the C's still have the best record in the league at this point.  This is not going to be the playoff way of playing the bench, guaranteed, so how we match against other teams' second units right now is basically irrelevant.

This is what I mean by "excuses."

No good general manager pieces together a bench comprised of Leon Powe and a group of end-of-the-bench skillsets to seriously compete for a championship.

More revisionist history. Danny makes mistakes. He made a bunch of them before the summer of 07.

And if he doesn't land some length and shooting, the summer of 2008 will go down as his biggest mistake.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2009, 10:32:11 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Ainge made two mistakes that lead to the bench lack of certain skills.



He misread two situations.


1) Posey.  He figured no one would give Posey the extra years.  And he waited it out.  Good replacements signed elsewhere.  When Posey finally got his extra years, there was no one left. 

2) PJ.  It looks like he planned for him to come back and not retire. 



Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2009, 11:00:37 AM »

Offline winsomme

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Ainge made two mistakes that lead to the bench lack of certain skills.



He misread two situations.


1) Posey.  He figured no one would give Posey the extra years.  And he waited it out.  Good replacements signed elsewhere.  When Posey finally got his extra years, there was no one left. 

2) PJ.  It looks like he planned for him to come back and not retire. 



Ainge has made mistakes. but the thing that has been so good about DA is that he has always moved to correct them. sometimes he makes a sideways move, sometimes a backwards, but he always makes an attempt to get better....

he is called Trader Danny for a reason.

let's hope he pulls out something nice for this bench situation....

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2009, 11:28:40 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Ainge made two mistakes that lead to the bench lack of certain skills.



He misread two situations.


1) Posey.  He figured no one would give Posey the extra years.  And he waited it out.  Good replacements signed elsewhere.  When Posey finally got his extra years, there was no one left. 

2) PJ.  It looks like he planned for him to come back and not retire. 




  I disagree about Posey. I can't imagine that people on this board were debating whether to give Posey an extra year or two to keep him but Ainge was unaware of the situation. He made a business decision. He also decided at the time that none of the "good replacements" that were available were more valuable than the shot at signing Posey.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2009, 11:38:19 AM »

Offline winsomme

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Ainge made two mistakes that lead to the bench lack of certain skills.



He misread two situations.


1) Posey.  He figured no one would give Posey the extra years.  And he waited it out.  Good replacements signed elsewhere.  When Posey finally got his extra years, there was no one left. 

2) PJ.  It looks like he planned for him to come back and not retire. 




  I disagree about Posey. I can't imagine that people on this board were debating whether to give Posey an extra year or two to keep him but Ainge was unaware of the situation. He made a business decision. He also decided at the time that none of the "good replacements" that were available were more valuable than the shot at signing Posey.

i'm pretty sure after Posey signed it came out that the Cs were surprised that Pose didn't come back to these Cs once he got the offer from NO to see what they would do...

whether or not they would have done the full MLE (or anything close) at that time is another  matter.

personally, i never really understood the worry about that 4th year...

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2009, 12:22:45 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Potential bench savior?

Quote
Basketball bad boy Wells notches 52 in China win
3 days ago

BEIJING (AFP) — Former NBA bad boy Bonzi Wells scored 52 points and hauled in 14 rebounds as he continued his spectacular start in Chinese basketball's top league, leading Shanxi Zhongyu to an overtime victory.

Wells scored 13 of his team's 18 overtime points to seal victory over Fujian SBS on Sunday night, wowing a sell-out crowd of 6,000 in his home debut in the Chinese Basketball Association and fourth game overall.

Since arriving this month, Wells has averaged a league-leading 46.8 points a game and the Chinese press has hailed him as a "scoring machine" and the best former NBA player to grace the CBA.

"The coach is giving me a lot of space, in the NBA I was never able to play so freely," Wells, 32, said after Sunday's game through a Chinese translator.

"Since college until now, it has been a long time since I've been able to play this freely."

Shanxi is currently in 10th place in the CBA at 10-9, having won two and lost two with Wells in the line-up.

For much of Sunday, Shanxi's former NBA coach Bob Weiss had Wells playing at point guard and not his usual shooting guard or forward position, resulting in the 10-year NBA veteran also dishing out five assists on the night.

Wells averaged 12.5 points and 4.6 rebounds over his NBA tenure with Portland, Memphis, Sacramento and Houston, a career often interrupted by troublesome on-court behaviour and various run-ins with coaches

Put him out there with the 2nd unit and let him be free to score.  We need a big more than a wing but why not give this a try (if the $$ can be made to work).
« Last Edit: January 01, 2009, 12:29:51 PM by Vermont Green »

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2009, 12:46:10 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Anything less than the 1 seed is an absolute disaster, totally unacceptable for a defending champ that could have largely been kept together.

  Why is not getting the 1 seed an absolute disaster? We're still on a mid-60 win pace. Cleveland would need to beat their record from last year by 20+ games to beat us. Not getting to the ECF might be a disaster, or maybe getting a 4-5 seed. Personally, I'm more interested in the playoffs than whether we have the best record in the league during the regular season.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2009, 12:47:32 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Ainge made two mistakes that lead to the bench lack of certain skills.



He misread two situations.


1) Posey.  He figured no one would give Posey the extra years.  And he waited it out.  Good replacements signed elsewhere.  When Posey finally got his extra years, there was no one left. 

2) PJ.  It looks like he planned for him to come back and not retire. 




  I disagree about Posey. I can't imagine that people on this board were debating whether to give Posey an extra year or two to keep him but Ainge was unaware of the situation. He made a business decision. He also decided at the time that none of the "good replacements" that were available were more valuable than the shot at signing Posey.

i'm pretty sure after Posey signed it came out that the Cs were surprised that Pose didn't come back to these Cs once he got the offer from NO to see what they would do...

whether or not they would have done the full MLE (or anything close) at that time is another  matter.

personally, i never really understood the worry about that 4th year...

  I heard Danny say that they only wanted to give Posey a 2 year mid-level deal and 3 years was their max offer.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2009, 12:48:20 PM »

Offline winsomme

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Anything less than the 1 seed is an absolute disaster, totally unacceptable for a defending champ that could have largely been kept together.

  Why is not getting the 1 seed an absolute disaster? We're still on a mid-60 win pace. Cleveland would need to beat their record from last year by 20+ games to beat us. Not getting to the ECF might be a disaster, or maybe getting a 4-5 seed. Personally, I'm more interested in the playoffs than whether we have the best record in the league during the regular season.

for me, the main concern in not getting the #1 seed would be a 7 game ECF series with CLE that ends in CLE...

pretty far off, though.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2009, 12:50:56 PM »

Offline winsomme

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Ainge made two mistakes that lead to the bench lack of certain skills.



He misread two situations.


1) Posey.  He figured no one would give Posey the extra years.  And he waited it out.  Good replacements signed elsewhere.  When Posey finally got his extra years, there was no one left. 

2) PJ.  It looks like he planned for him to come back and not retire. 




  I disagree about Posey. I can't imagine that people on this board were debating whether to give Posey an extra year or two to keep him but Ainge was unaware of the situation. He made a business decision. He also decided at the time that none of the "good replacements" that were available were more valuable than the shot at signing Posey.

i'm pretty sure after Posey signed it came out that the Cs were surprised that Pose didn't come back to these Cs once he got the offer from NO to see what they would do...

whether or not they would have done the full MLE (or anything close) at that time is another  matter.

personally, i never really understood the worry about that 4th year...

  I heard Danny say that they only wanted to give Posey a 2 year mid-level deal and 3 years was their max offer.

that may very well have been the case...or it could have been posturing...or an" after the fact" explanation (depending on when it came)..

but i'm pretty sure it was reported that the Cs were surprised that he didn't come back to them to see if they would up their offer and instead just took the NO deal.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2009, 12:57:06 PM by winsomme »