Author Topic: The Bench is not the Problem  (Read 13972 times)

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Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2008, 12:53:48 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Doc can only do so much with his rotation with the people he has. Is it his fault TA is too inconsistent? Is it his fault Big Baby is undersized? Is it his fault House isn't a PG?

The bench is the problem.


Then why put all those issues on the floor at once? 

Mix them in with the starters where those shortcomings are not so evident.

but the reason that Doc is going to the starters more is because the bench is simply not producing regardless of who is on the floor...

keeping the starters together more is one of the main reasons that we have been winning games, but they are wearing down...

i think splitting the starters up more would just mean more losses at this point.

the bench needs to step up their play and THEN Doc can play the starters less together. not the other way around.

and DA needs to really start working the phones because we need a backup SF....

How do you get a player that is struggling going?


One of the general ways is to put them on the floor with better players where there is less pressure and they are not asked to do to much.  

And what is the logic of playing all the bench together if it is not working?  

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2008, 01:00:10 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I am not sure there has to be a problem every time we lose a game but in terms of our bench, our talent is not nearly as good as most other teams' benches.  It gets exposed the most when we play a team that is long like Portland (Cleve presents a similar problem as well so look out).  Last night, the whole team, included the big 5 all looked tired, mentally and physically but the bench limitations are what they are.

Trades?  Not likely, we just don't have enough to offer.  If Danny can pull something off, great, but I don't see it.  I think we are going to have to take some chances with released or not signed types.  For example, could we get more out of Antoine Walker than we get out of BBD?  How about Starbury over Eddie House?  Bonzi Wells over Tony Allen?  I think Pruitt has shown enough that we don't need Cassell so why not try one of these guys and give Sam a clip board or maybe even release someone (hate to do it but...)

Any of these three examples come with lots of baggage and risk but pretty soon we can start to use 10 day contracts or other low commitment means to try some things.  I am sure Doc isn't anxious to throw some new bodies into the mix (not exactly easy on the coach to work in new players mid season) but we are talking about creating a modest improvement to the bench.  I think you can do that without messing with the core.  As for the rookies in the D-League, I don't think either is ready to be an improvement over anyone currently on our bench.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2008, 01:01:59 PM »

Offline winsomme

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We were outscored by the Blazers 51-41 in the 2nd half.

The 3rd quarter we managed 19 points (Starters fault).

The 4th quarter, Pierce scored our last 10 points, he was basically our only option. We had our starting unit to finish the game since the 7:13 mark of the 4th and we were outscored by an undermanned Blazers team 19-16 to finish the game.

We also had 4 turnovers in the 4th quarter and 2 were late crucial turnovers, one by KG and the other by Rondo.

Starters aren't playing nearly as well as they can or should.



i don't think that contradicts the idea that the bench is not giving us anything....

the point is that the starters are starting to feel the effects of carrying that much of the burden to win games and it is starting to affect their play.

if the bench guys were contributing more, they could be playing more with the starters. but as it is now, we need the starters playing together to maximize their contributions...

but it won't last forever and we are starting to see the effects.

if you look at Posey's contribution last year, he was getting the majority of his best minutes with 2 or 3 starters in the game. So, Doc is not opposed to playing the bench guys with the starters, but they need to be contributing and right now they are not.

Doc likes to play the most minutes with the starters together, but i actually agree with that concept overall

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2008, 01:06:27 PM »

Offline winsomme

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Doc can only do so much with his rotation with the people he has. Is it his fault TA is too inconsistent? Is it his fault Big Baby is undersized? Is it his fault House isn't a PG?

The bench is the problem.


Then why put all those issues on the floor at once? 

Mix them in with the starters where those shortcomings are not so evident.

but the reason that Doc is going to the starters more is because the bench is simply not producing regardless of who is on the floor...

keeping the starters together more is one of the main reasons that we have been winning games, but they are wearing down...

i think splitting the starters up more would just mean more losses at this point.

the bench needs to step up their play and THEN Doc can play the starters less together. not the other way around.

and DA needs to really start working the phones because we need a backup SF....

How do you get a player that is struggling going?


One of the general ways is to put them on the floor with better players where there is less pressure and they are not asked to do to much.  

And what is the logic of playing all the bench together if it is not working?  

i can't remember which thread i posted this in, but i think the bench guys are so inconsistent right now that playing them more with more starters would just mean more losses or games that could easily be losses.

these guys should be able to play off of Pierce or Ray. they just need to start making their rotations and knocking down their shots....

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2008, 02:08:00 PM »

Offline Michael Anthony

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Thanks for the support Wide Load!

I am not arguing that we should adjust TOTAL minutes, I am arguing starters minutes and bench minutes need to be better integrated. Our starting unit plays together 25% of the time, compared to 10%-12% of starting units by HoF coaches.

I am not responding to last game, I am responding to this season. The 82Games.com minute distributions include all games played this year. Doc's tendency to play four bench guys with a single starter did not start last week.

There is one other negative outcome of this scenario that I did not touch on in my original post. Basketball is a game of feel, and hot and cold are very real. When a player sits for extended minutes, it takes time for them to get back into the flow of the game. If one cold player is introduced at a time, the performance of the unit diminishes slightly. If four or five cold players are inserted at once - starters rentering together or bench players - performance suffers dramatically.

Finally, it is not uncommon for a starter to open the game playing 14 straight minutes, sit for the next 6, then go back in for the last 4. These guys are in good shape, but they are tired before the come out and ice cold after they go back in. If the sub pattern was closer to 8-2-5-2-5-2 they would never be extremely tired or extremely cold.
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Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2008, 02:39:42 PM »

Offline winsomme

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Thanks for the support Wide Load!

I am not arguing that we should adjust TOTAL minutes, I am arguing starters minutes and bench minutes need to be better integrated. Our starting unit plays together 25% of the time, compared to 10%-12% of starting units by HoF coaches.

I am not responding to last game, I am responding to this season. The 82Games.com minute distributions include all games played this year. Doc's tendency to play four bench guys with a single starter did not start last week.

There is one other negative outcome of this scenario that I did not touch on in my original post. Basketball is a game of feel, and hot and cold are very real. When a player sits for extended minutes, it takes time for them to get back into the flow of the game. If one cold player is introduced at a time, the performance of the unit diminishes slightly. If four or five cold players are inserted at once - starters rentering together or bench players - performance suffers dramatically.

Finally, it is not uncommon for a starter to open the game playing 14 straight minutes, sit for the next 6, then go back in for the last 4. These guys are in good shape, but they are tired before the come out and ice cold after they go back in. If the sub pattern was closer to 8-2-5-2-5-2 they would never be extremely tired or extremely cold.

i hear what you are saying MA, but if you look back at last year, you will see that Doc played our bench guys with more starters - especially Eddie and Pose.

the difference this year is that the bench guys are  just not playing well which IMO has forced Doc to maximize the amount of time the starters play together.

also if you look back at last season, you will see that the 4 and 5-man bench units tended to hold their own in a way that they are not doing this year.

i think the big difference this year is not an unwillingness of Doc to integrate the bench (he did it last year), but a realization that the bench guys are just not playing well (integrated or not integrated) and the best way to win games is with the starters.

but that strategy has an expiration date.....

this bench just doesn't have the same fire this year....yet. hopefully that will change.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2008, 06:36:44 PM »

Offline cornbreadsmart

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i really don't think there is any problem with doc's rotation and the LAST thing wrong with this team is fire from anywhere. this team is built on go getters and hard workers(minus scal and baby in the offseason and pat obryant i guess). they simply are'nt THAT talented. our starters are so sick it won't matter vs most teams but the two teams that most of us are weary about are a horrible matchup for our bench.
   i love powe but he probably won't have another playoff game like vs l.a. last year. there will usually be TWO big men in his way and if we don't get homecourt leon certainly will get less of those questionable charge flops he does. eddie is an awesome shooter but is helpless vs pressure. tony allen in my opinion will be a liability vs the lakers and cavs. he will be completely ignored and free to take whatever 18 footer he wants. for us to win it this year i really can't imagine tony allen being a key component. you can't have a guy coming in to a title game in crunch time and be crossing your fingers he does'nt screw up.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2008, 06:38:19 PM »

Offline cornbreadsmart

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not trying to hate on tony. i think he's a very unselfish player.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2008, 06:57:29 PM »

Offline winsomme

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i really don't think there is any problem with doc's rotation and the LAST thing wrong with this team is fire from anywhere. this team is built on go getters and hard workers(minus scal and baby in the offseason and pat obryant i guess). they simply are'nt THAT talented. our starters are so sick it won't matter vs most teams but the two teams that most of us are weary about are a horrible matchup for our bench.
   i love powe but he probably won't have another playoff game like vs l.a. last year. there will usually be TWO big men in his way and if we don't get homecourt leon certainly will get less of those questionable charge flops he does. eddie is an awesome shooter but is helpless vs pressure. tony allen in my opinion will be a liability vs the lakers and cavs. he will be completely ignored and free to take whatever 18 footer he wants. for us to win it this year i really can't imagine tony allen being a key component. you can't have a guy coming in to a title game in crunch time and be crossing your fingers he does'nt screw up.

corn, i'm not saying the bench is lazy or not hard working.....i actually like our bench guys, but Pose had that edge to his game and was able to back it up with big shots and plays.

our bench guys just look lost at the moment. they know they aren't playing as well as they colud/should and i think they are starting to feel the heat of trying to repeat which is a really difficult thing to do (it's easy to forget that). confidence is really low.

there's just no edge to them right now because i think they are really worried about not delivering.....Posey had been around enough that that would not bother him. he would still have that edge.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2008, 07:30:57 PM »

Offline billysan

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Not the problem?

We have a 6-3 1/2 SG replacing a 6-8 SF who is one of the premier defensive wing players in the league. He also hit the three pointer with consistency and could rebound well at his position. Throw in playoff/Championship experience for good measure.

We have a 6-6 PF forced to play PF/C off the bench who is replacing a 6-11 PF/C that played excellent post defense and hit the mid range shot. Throw in excellent rebounding and playoff experience.

We have two excellent rotation players that are missing from our bench from last year that would be top 7/8 rotation players on any playoff team in the league. We are attempting to replace their collective leadership and production with a low second rounder and a low first rounder who have both had multiple major knee injuries.

I cannot figure out how this is Doc's fault. I guess he could jiggle the minutes around a little, but I dont see how it makes a big difference. We got outplayed in a couple of games on this road trip and some of our team weakness's (length and bench productivity) were exposed and exploited.  8)
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Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2008, 07:43:18 PM »

Offline BrickJames

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Even Tommy made the comment last night that the "second unit" is the problem.  They give up leads and destroy our momentum.
God bless and good night!


Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2008, 08:32:29 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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The starters have to rest.

This post makes some flawed points. The Jazz? They don't have a starting 5, someone is always injured! There's a way better indicator, how many minutes bench players are getting:
Boston - 76.6
Utah - 92.3
Lakers - 90.3
Cleveland - 85.8
San Antonio - 90.8

The "mixed" teams aren't playing well. The problem of our bench players is not how they mesh with each other; it's just that they lack the quality of the guys we had last season. I really don't see how people want to keep Perkins on the court more time. Or Garnett. Pairing Rondo with Tony Allen is complicated and it only works so much. One of the starting wings is generally on the court.

I think it's wise to force these guys to grow and face adversity. Let'em play. Don't bail them out. If I were Doc, I wouldn't even call too many time-outs. Weinman wrote a good article about this recently, I'm too lazy to look for it, but maybe he can bring up the link.

Anyway, it was obvious this would happen: I predicted Doc would get the blame because he was given a flawed roster to work with. One of the easiest predictions I've ever made. Even more amusing is that I read plenty of times that one of the advantages of this season bench would be that we'd be able to play a 2nd unit composed entirely of bench players - you know, because the guys who left couldn't create their own shot and were only good playing off the starters...  

TP for 100 percent accuracy - a great post.

The excuses for a bench full of 9th and 10th slot players on this board never ceases to amaze me. We miss the qualities Posey and PJ brought to the floor - desperately. We're short, we lack scoring and we're not as good defensively off the bench in December as we were in June.

Billysan is correct as well. TP to him. Blaming Rivers for his rotations is one of the biggest strawmen I've ever seen floated on this board, and it inexcusably ducks the clear, inescapable reality of our situation.

I don't find rebuilding fascinating enough to craft a post waxing wiEdited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.lly about the day Danny will break this up and start all over. I don't find individual players that Danny drafted fascinating enough to work overtime crafting posts to hide their flaws. There's one thing that fascinates me: The pursuit of a World Championship. Anything short of that commitment is a failure from this organization.

And they failed this summer. This bench was screwed up this summer, enough that it threatens the future of this season. Period.

The best thing about this awful road trip is that it clearly exposed the mess Danny's made of this bench. It can no longer be hidden by ekeing out wins over mediocre teams. Being exposed will benefit a championship run in the long term.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 08:41:45 PM by CoachBo »
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Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2008, 10:01:38 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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The starters have to rest.

This post makes some flawed points. The Jazz? They don't have a starting 5, someone is always injured! There's a way better indicator, how many minutes bench players are getting:
Boston - 76.6
Utah - 92.3
Lakers - 90.3
Cleveland - 85.8
San Antonio - 90.8

The "mixed" teams aren't playing well. The problem of our bench players is not how they mesh with each other; it's just that they lack the quality of the guys we had last season. I really don't see how people want to keep Perkins on the court more time. Or Garnett. Pairing Rondo with Tony Allen is complicated and it only works so much. One of the starting wings is generally on the court.

I think it's wise to force these guys to grow and face adversity. Let'em play. Don't bail them out. If I were Doc, I wouldn't even call too many time-outs. Weinman wrote a good article about this recently, I'm too lazy to look for it, but maybe he can bring up the link.

Anyway, it was obvious this would happen: I predicted Doc would get the blame because he was given a flawed roster to work with. One of the easiest predictions I've ever made. Even more amusing is that I read plenty of times that one of the advantages of this season bench would be that we'd be able to play a 2nd unit composed entirely of bench players - you know, because the guys who left couldn't create their own shot and were only good playing off the starters...  

TP for 100 percent accuracy - a great post.

The excuses for a bench full of 9th and 10th slot players on this board never ceases to amaze me. We miss the qualities Posey and PJ brought to the floor - desperately. We're short, we lack scoring and we're not as good defensively off the bench in December as we were in June.

Billysan is correct as well. TP to him. Blaming Rivers for his rotations is one of the biggest strawmen I've ever seen floated on this board, and it inexcusably ducks the clear, inescapable reality of our situation.

I don't find rebuilding fascinating enough to craft a post waxing wiEdited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.lly about the day Danny will break this up and start all over. I don't find individual players that Danny drafted fascinating enough to work overtime crafting posts to hide their flaws. There's one thing that fascinates me: The pursuit of a World Championship. Anything short of that commitment is a failure from this organization.

And they failed this summer. This bench was screwed up this summer, enough that it threatens the future of this season. Period.

The best thing about this awful road trip is that it clearly exposed the mess Danny's made of this bench. It can no longer be hidden by ekeing out wins over mediocre teams. Being exposed will benefit a championship run in the long term.

100% agree with both of you. The problem is indeed the bench. The answer is to let them improve. Force them into stepping it up. They will get better as the season progresses. This isn't about winning 66 games. It is about hanging #18. I'd rather win 55 games and hang a banner because our bench got better than to win 66 and lose in the EC Finals.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2008, 10:05:44 PM »

Offline winsomme

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The starters have to rest.

This post makes some flawed points. The Jazz? They don't have a starting 5, someone is always injured! There's a way better indicator, how many minutes bench players are getting:
Boston - 76.6
Utah - 92.3
Lakers - 90.3
Cleveland - 85.8
San Antonio - 90.8

The "mixed" teams aren't playing well. The problem of our bench players is not how they mesh with each other; it's just that they lack the quality of the guys we had last season. I really don't see how people want to keep Perkins on the court more time. Or Garnett. Pairing Rondo with Tony Allen is complicated and it only works so much. One of the starting wings is generally on the court.

I think it's wise to force these guys to grow and face adversity. Let'em play. Don't bail them out. If I were Doc, I wouldn't even call too many time-outs. Weinman wrote a good article about this recently, I'm too lazy to look for it, but maybe he can bring up the link.

Anyway, it was obvious this would happen: I predicted Doc would get the blame because he was given a flawed roster to work with. One of the easiest predictions I've ever made. Even more amusing is that I read plenty of times that one of the advantages of this season bench would be that we'd be able to play a 2nd unit composed entirely of bench players - you know, because the guys who left couldn't create their own shot and were only good playing off the starters...  

TP for 100 percent accuracy - a great post.

The excuses for a bench full of 9th and 10th slot players on this board never ceases to amaze me. We miss the qualities Posey and PJ brought to the floor - desperately. We're short, we lack scoring and we're not as good defensively off the bench in December as we were in June.

Billysan is correct as well. TP to him. Blaming Rivers for his rotations is one of the biggest strawmen I've ever seen floated on this board, and it inexcusably ducks the clear, inescapable reality of our situation.

I don't find rebuilding fascinating enough to craft a post waxing wiEdited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.lly about the day Danny will break this up and start all over. I don't find individual players that Danny drafted fascinating enough to work overtime crafting posts to hide their flaws. There's one thing that fascinates me: The pursuit of a World Championship. Anything short of that commitment is a failure from this organization.

And they failed this summer. This bench was screwed up this summer, enough that it threatens the future of this season. Period.

The best thing about this awful road trip is that it clearly exposed the mess Danny's made of this bench. It can no longer be hidden by ekeing out wins over mediocre teams. Being exposed will benefit a championship run in the long term.

100% agree with both of you. The problem is indeed the bench. The answer is to let them improve. Force them into stepping it up. They will get better as the season progresses. This isn't about winning 66 games. It is about hanging #18. I'd rather win 55 games and hang a banner because our bench got better than to win 66 and lose in the EC Finals.

i am on board with the bench being the problem right now. i also am on board with forcing them to step up their game.

but i am not on board with the 55 win theory. if the bench is that bad for that long that it would drop our win total that much, it needs revamping.

we need to be targeting the #1 seed again. it was a huge reason that we won the Title last year.

Re: The Bench is not the Problem
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2008, 10:07:52 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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we need to be targeting the #1 seed again. it was a huge reason that we won the Title last year.

i agree with this 10000000000% percent!