The Bench is not the Problem

[Michael Anthony]

Doc is. Our substitution paterns are a mess. Take a look at our Top 10 Five-Man-Rotations over at 82Games.com:
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809BOS2.HTM

The Celtics starting five play together 25% of the time. Compare that to teams around the league coached by future hall of famers (numbers account for trades and injuries):
13% Bobcats - Brown
11% Lakers - Jackson
11% Knicks - D'Antoni
10% Jazz - Sloan

Splitting your starters up allows you to keep the number of reserve players on the court to a minimum at any given time. Take a look at the second and third most frequently used units for the Celtics:
House-T.Allen-Pierce-Powe-Davis
House-T.Allen-R.Allen-Powe-Davis

Those two groups play just about as much together (10%) as other team's starters! Second team lineups like these might have worked when your first teamers were Jordan and Pippen, you had Kukoc coming off the bench, and your backup center was a 7'0" veteran named Wennington. They do not work with Tony Allen & Glen Davis.

Nobody manages personalities and the media like Doc Rivers, period. Very few coaches could have pulled a group together like he did last season, and for that he deserves credit. We will be fine if Doc learns to work his rotations better, but unless that happens, I agree that we are in need of a major bench overhaul before February.

[celticmaestro]

Doc can only do so much with his rotation with the people he has. Is it his fault TA is too inconsistent? Is it his fault Big Baby is undersized? Is it his fault House isn't a PG?

The bench is the problem.

[ManUp]

It's a combination of both Doc's rotation and the bench. Our bench just isn't good enough to allow Doc to use them how he'd like to. Last year he probably used the bench in the same fashion, but it wasn't an issue because the bench was more balance and played better D.

We either need a complete bench overhaul, which is not likely or more starters with the subs. Maybe tighten the rotation to 8 players instead of 9. Get Rondo and Perk playing more with the second unit or something like that. Perk's defense, and offense would both be positives on the second unit. Rondo would provide the playvmaking that's sorely lacking in that unit.

[wdleehi]

I agree.  If he mixed and matched starters with bench players more often, he could better hide shortcomings of the bench. 

[Fox40Kid]

I think that Doc doesn't like to do too much mixing of starters and bench in order to keep minutes played in check for Pierce, KG and Ray.

[dark_lord]

i think its a two part problem.

1.  the bench isnt good and highly inconsistent
2.  doc puts the bench in with only one starter (normally ray or paul).

as someone indicated earlier, if he mixed the subs in with starters, as opposed to having 4 or 5 bench players on the court at the same time, it would hide the shortcomings of the inconsistent bench and its flaws.

[wdleehi]

I think that Doc doesn't like to do too much mixing of starters and bench in order to keep minutes played in check for Pierce, KG and Ray.

If that is the reason, then someone buy Doc a stopwatch. 

[Bankshot]

Doc can only do so much with his rotation with the people he has. Is it his fault TA is too inconsistent? Is it his fault Big Baby is undersized? Is it his fault House isn't a PG?

The bench is the problem.

[wdleehi]

Doc can only do so much with his rotation with the people he has. Is it his fault TA is too inconsistent? Is it his fault Big Baby is undersized? Is it his fault House isn't a PG?

The bench is the problem.

Then why put all those issues on the floor at once? 

Mix them in with the starters where those shortcomings are not so evident.

[moiso]

TA gets most of the criticism on this blog, but at least he contributes in a few different areas.  House, on the other hand, is totally one dimensional and when he's not makeing shots, isn't helping at all. I know he hits tough shots, but his shot selection has not been good.  

[cordobes]

The starters have to rest.

This post makes some flawed points. The Jazz? They don't have a starting 5, someone is always injured! There's a way better indicator, how many minutes bench players are getting:
Boston - 76.6
Utah - 92.3
Lakers - 90.3
Cleveland - 85.8
San Antonio - 90.8

The "mixed" teams aren't playing well. The problem of our bench players is not how they mesh with each other; it's just that they lack the quality of the guys we had last season. I really don't see how people want to keep Perkins on the court more time. Or Garnett. Pairing Rondo with Tony Allen is complicated and it only works so much. One of the starting wings is generally on the court.

I think it's wise to force these guys to grow and face adversity. Let'em play. Don't bail them out. If I were Doc, I wouldn't even call too many time-outs. Weinman wrote a good article about this recently, I'm too lazy to look for it, but maybe he can bring up the link.

Anyway, it was obvious this would happen: I predicted Doc would get the blame because he was given a flawed roster to work with. One of the easiest predictions I've ever made. Even more amusing is that I read plenty of times that one of the advantages of this season bench would be that we'd be able to play a 2nd unit composed entirely of bench players - you know, because the guys who left couldn't create their own shot and were only good playing off the starters...  

[wdleehi]

The starters have to rest.

This post makes some flawed points. The Jazz? They don't have a starting 5, someone is always injured! There's a way better indicator, how many minutes bench players are getting:
Boston - 76.6
Utah - 92.3
Lakers - 90.3
Cleveland - 85.8
San Antonio - 90.8

The "mixed" teams aren't playing well. The problem of our bench players is not how they mesh with each other; it's just that they lack the quality of the guys we had last season. I really don't see how people want to keep Perkins on the court more time. Or Garnett. Pairing Rondo with Tony Allen is complicated and it only works so much. One of the starting wings is generally on the court.

I think it's wise to force these guys to grow and face adversity. Let'em play. Don't bail them out. If I were Doc, I wouldn't even call too many time-outs. Weinman wrote a good article about this recently, I'm too lazy to look for it, but maybe he can bring up the link.

Anyway, it was obvious this would happen: I predicted Doc would get the blame because he was given a flawed roster to work with. One of the easiest predictions I've ever made. Even more amusing is that I read plenty of times that one of the advantages of this season bench would be that we'd be able to play a 2nd unit composed entirely of bench players - you know, because the guys who left couldn't create their own shot and were only good playing off the starters...  

Why do the starters have to play more minutes if they are mixed in with the bench more often? 

Just adjust the rotational pattern.  Keep the minutes roughly the same. 

[housecall]

i think its a two part problem.

1.  the bench isnt good and highly inconsistent
2.  doc puts the bench in with only one starter (normally ray or paul).

as someone indicated earlier, if he mixed the subs in with starters, as opposed to having 4 or 5 bench players on the court at the same time, it would hide the shortcomings of the inconsistent bench and its flaws.

tp for good points.

[cordobes]

The starters have to rest.

This post makes some flawed points. The Jazz? They don't have a starting 5, someone is always injured! There's a way better indicator, how many minutes bench players are getting:
Boston - 76.6
Utah - 92.3
Lakers - 90.3
Cleveland - 85.8
San Antonio - 90.8

The "mixed" teams aren't playing well. The problem of our bench players is not how they mesh with each other; it's just that they lack the quality of the guys we had last season. I really don't see how people want to keep Perkins on the court more time. Or Garnett. Pairing Rondo with Tony Allen is complicated and it only works so much. One of the starting wings is generally on the court.

I think it's wise to force these guys to grow and face adversity. Let'em play. Don't bail them out. If I were Doc, I wouldn't even call too many time-outs. Weinman wrote a good article about this recently, I'm too lazy to look for it, but maybe he can bring up the link.

Anyway, it was obvious this would happen: I predicted Doc would get the blame because he was given a flawed roster to work with. One of the easiest predictions I've ever made. Even more amusing is that I read plenty of times that one of the advantages of this season bench would be that we'd be able to play a 2nd unit composed entirely of bench players - you know, because the guys who left couldn't create their own shot and were only good playing off the starters...  

Why do the starters have to play more minutes if they are mixed in with the bench more often? 

Just adjust the rotational pattern.  Keep the minutes roughly the same. 

Like what? It's easier to be said than done. How many minutes have we played with only one starter on the floor during yesterday's game second half?

[TatteredOnMySleeve]

Neither ray nor paul can make this bench look good...