John Salmons

[crownsy]

I'm not overvaluing TA, to the contrary. I'm talking about salaries that add up to the NBA's needless matching guidelines. Anyway Veal makes more sense or else we'd have to trade at least one additional guy and it becomes likely too lopsided. Too bad, because I'd almost prefer to keep him over TA if we're adding a guy like Salmons.

Did anyone else see SAC play Sunday night? They're awful, and officially rebuilding. I say there's a chance they'd consider some combo (two) of Walker, Leon, Baby, Giddens or Pruitt, plus Scal. Walker, for example, could be an excellent project for them at the 3 next to KM, and might help sell tickets as he starts to develop.

I say there's some value there, the question is what we're willing to give up.

to rebuild, you need prospects to develop. what can they develop out of

Scal- Not an NBA everyday player

TA- bench enigma with huge injury history

two second round picks (JR is a second) they didn't want to draft on draft day, and have shown nothing?

Baby- a 2nd round guy who's currently struggling to earn minutes ina  9 man rotation.

any of those are horrid decisions for them. the only guy they'd be remotly intersted in, IMO, is leon, and he's to valuable to our bench at the moment.

Giddens, Walker and Pruitt are all interesting prospects, crown....i'm not sure why you are so down on them.

the thing that makes a prospect a prospect is because they haven't really shown what they can do yet, but we certainly have seen flashes of Pruitt and Walker and Giddens seem to be playing well in the D-League..

they're not "prime" prospects, but then again, we're not targeting "prime" players in trade.

i think it is very difficult to know what other teams think of those three guys...

there intersting prospects TO US.

Im not real sure anyone outside our team (gm's included) look at walker and giddeons, both of whom are second round picks and go

"why yes, I can see that if he develops he could be a good player, thats why i passed on him (in walkers case, multiple times) on draft day. but now, i totally see making him a piece of my rebuilding era 2 months later. where do i sign?"

what makes walker and giddeons intersting to anyone outside celtics nation right now? the above average preformance in the D-league?

As for pruitt, he never plays. If he was playing, and well, then i think you could convice teams to look at him as a useful prospect, but right now he's not. There's plenty of young kids who can hit an open jumper in the NBA, which is pretty much all gabe's shown so far. that's not a valuable piece of a trade.

and i think you greatly underestimate the value sac puts on solmons.

[winsomme]

John Salmons would be a great sixth man for us but he's good enough to start and be a second or third option on 25 other teams out there, and we don't have the pieces to afford that kinda guy.

What am I missing?  Salmons seems like the posterchild case of a person putting up big numbers for a bad team.  Good enough to start on which 25 other teams?  He's a career backup.  He's also putting up the current numbers when their best player is out.  The fact that their best player plays the same position makes Salmons tradable.  But the strange infactuation for somebody who has had, at best, a pedestrian career for losing teams is strange.

Reminds me of the strange blog infactuation for the same type of player (big stats on bad teams) who is Salmons'former teammate.  Shareef Abdur-Rahim.

I think you're missing that Salmons is legit talent. Just because he plays for a bad team doesn't mean anything. Paul Pierce played for a bad team and put up good numbers for a long time but I think he's proved he's a legit talent. The case is Salmons plays behind Kevin Martin, who is a top tier scorer, so he's a backup. But Salmons would start for teams like Orlando, New Orleans, I think he's better than Batum, who starts for the blazers. Thats just a few teams. I could go on.

i think this is a good question...

what are other teams going to be willing to give up to get Salmons and is it clearly better than what we could offer?

i don't know.

i don't think that Salmons would start for Portland because i think POR likes the combo of Batum and Outlaw at the SF and Rudy at the 2.

i also don't think that it is clear that he would start for ORL. i think they are happy with Bogans and Pietrus...but more to the point, what would ORL be willing to give up to get Salmons?

[ssspence]

I'm not overvaluing TA, to the contrary. I'm talking about salaries that add up to the NBA's needless matching guidelines. Anyway Veal makes more sense or else we'd have to trade at least one additional guy and it becomes likely too lopsided. Too bad, because I'd almost prefer to keep him over TA if we're adding a guy like Salmons.

Did anyone else see SAC play Sunday night? They're awful, and officially rebuilding. I say there's a chance they'd consider some combo (two) of Walker, Leon, Baby, Giddens or Pruitt, plus Scal. Walker, for example, could be an excellent project for them at the 3 next to KM, and might help sell tickets as he starts to develop.

I say there's some value there, the question is what we're willing to give up.

to rebuild, you need prospects to develop. what can they develop out of

Scal- Not an NBA everyday player

TA- bench enigma with huge injury history

two second round picks (JR is a second) they didn't want to draft on draft day, and have shown nothing?

Baby- a 2nd round guy who's currently struggling to earn minutes ina  9 man rotation.

any of those are horrid decisions for them. the only guy they'd be remotly intersted in, IMO, is leon, and he's to valuable to our bench at the moment.

Scal is salary filler, pay some of it for SAC if necessary.

There's plenty of talent in this group. That you think Giddens, Pruitt and Walker aren't any good is your own issue. I see it differently. Would you rather have Spencer Hawes or Leon Powe? It's not about where you go in the draft, it's about how good you become. Salmons himself is a good example -- he was like to 25th pick in the draft 7 years ago, worth **** in trade until the last couple of years.

Leon may indeed be too valuable (49th pick in the draft, if I recall). How about Walker -- he doesn't have the talent to become Salmons or better if all goes well for him? Pruitt couldn't be better than Udrih in a year?

I'm with Indeed Proceed on where to take this. If one of the team he mentions can come up with a better package, then they can. I just hope no one says JJ Redick. Would you rather have Pruitt or Redick? Who went ahead of who in the draft?

[crownsy]

I'm not overvaluing TA, to the contrary. I'm talking about salaries that add up to the NBA's needless matching guidelines. Anyway Veal makes more sense or else we'd have to trade at least one additional guy and it becomes likely too lopsided. Too bad, because I'd almost prefer to keep him over TA if we're adding a guy like Salmons.

Did anyone else see SAC play Sunday night? They're awful, and officially rebuilding. I say there's a chance they'd consider some combo (two) of Walker, Leon, Baby, Giddens or Pruitt, plus Scal. Walker, for example, could be an excellent project for them at the 3 next to KM, and might help sell tickets as he starts to develop.

I say there's some value there, the question is what we're willing to give up.

to rebuild, you need prospects to develop. what can they develop out of

Scal- Not an NBA everyday player

TA- bench enigma with huge injury history

two second round picks (JR is a second) they didn't want to draft on draft day, and have shown nothing?

Baby- a 2nd round guy who's currently struggling to earn minutes ina  9 man rotation.

any of those are horrid decisions for them. the only guy they'd be remotly intersted in, IMO, is leon, and he's to valuable to our bench at the moment.

Scal is salary filler, pay some of it for SAC if necessary.

There's plenty of talent in this group. That you think Giddens, Pruitt and Walker aren't any good is your own issue. I see it differently. Would you rather have Spencer Hawes or Leon Powe? It's not about where you go in the draft, it's about how good you become. Salmons himself is a good example -- he was like to 25th pick in the draft 7 years ago, worth **** in trade until the last couple of years.

Leon may indeed be too valuable (49th pick in the draft, if I recall). How about Walker -- he doesn't have the talent to become Salmons or better if all goes well for him? Pruitt couldn't be better than Udrih in a year?

I'm with Indeed Proceed on where to take this. If one of the team he mentions can come up with a better package, then they can. I just hope no one says JJ Redick. Would you rather have Pruitt or Redick? Who went ahead of who in the draft?

again, as i stated, i think you aren't looking like this as a GM, but rather as a celtics fan.

I like giddeons and walker, along with pruitt, but they have done nothing to distingish themselves for other GM's to go "wow, that kid is somethign i want to give up assets for"

baby has shown he can be a very serviable glue guy, but is that what a team in the mode the kings are in is looking for? I think not.

Leon, as i said in my post, is a good asset, but we can't move him, he's far to valuable to our rotation.

We think (and yes i do as well) that our rookies are great and teams should think so to, but they don't. 2nd round picks who do well in the D-league or ride the pine are a dime a dozen, why would that be an asset for a team to get back?

your last comparision sums up what i think the flaw in your resoning is perfectly.

Ask a celtics fan reddick or pruitt, and they go "oh pruitt, he does x and y better ect, ect."

ask a gm or another teams fan and they would go "gabe who? oh that kid that doesn't get to play in boston? uh, i dunno, either or i guess"

you thinkt hats a no brainer question because we (i include myself) like pruitts game and follow it closley. but really, he's done nothing to distingish himself as a player with a future to anyone but die hard celtics fans.

[winsomme]

I'm not overvaluing TA, to the contrary. I'm talking about salaries that add up to the NBA's needless matching guidelines. Anyway Veal makes more sense or else we'd have to trade at least one additional guy and it becomes likely too lopsided. Too bad, because I'd almost prefer to keep him over TA if we're adding a guy like Salmons.

Did anyone else see SAC play Sunday night? They're awful, and officially rebuilding. I say there's a chance they'd consider some combo (two) of Walker, Leon, Baby, Giddens or Pruitt, plus Scal. Walker, for example, could be an excellent project for them at the 3 next to KM, and might help sell tickets as he starts to develop.

I say there's some value there, the question is what we're willing to give up.

to rebuild, you need prospects to develop. what can they develop out of

Scal- Not an NBA everyday player

TA- bench enigma with huge injury history

two second round picks (JR is a second) they didn't want to draft on draft day, and have shown nothing?

Baby- a 2nd round guy who's currently struggling to earn minutes ina  9 man rotation.

any of those are horrid decisions for them. the only guy they'd be remotly intersted in, IMO, is leon, and he's to valuable to our bench at the moment.

Giddens, Walker and Pruitt are all interesting prospects, crown....i'm not sure why you are so down on them.

the thing that makes a prospect a prospect is because they haven't really shown what they can do yet, but we certainly have seen flashes of Pruitt and Walker and Giddens seem to be playing well in the D-League..

they're not "prime" prospects, but then again, we're not targeting "prime" players in trade.

i think it is very difficult to know what other teams think of those three guys...

there intersting prospects TO US.

Im not real sure anyone outside our team (gm's included) look at walker and giddeons, both of whom are second round picks and go

"why yes, I can see that if he develops he could be a good player, thats why i passed on him (in walkers case, multiple times) on draft day. but now, i totally see making him a piece of my rebuilding era 2 months later. where do i sign?"

what makes walker and giddeons intersting to anyone outside celtics nation right now? the above average preformance in the D-league?

As for pruitt, he never plays. If he was playing, and well, then i think you could convice teams to look at him as a useful prospect, but right now he's not. There's plenty of young kids who can hit an open jumper in the NBA, which is pretty much all gabe's shown so far. that's not a valuable piece of a trade.

and i think you greatly underestimate the value sac puts on solmons.

the only questions IMO that are really important are:

1 how serious is SAC about trading him?
2 what are other teams willing to give up to get him?

i would like to hear some proposals that would make sense to both SAC and the team trading for Salmons that would put us out of the running. i think that is the best way to investigate this idea.

i'm not personally putting any hard value on our prospects. i really don't know how other teams view them. as for Giddens and Walker, it seems to me that they are doing exactly what they should be doing...playing well in the D-League and working on their games..

at this point, i think where they were drafted is largely irrelevant (although Giddens was a first round pick), but i just don't think it matters much anymore....especially with the level of players that we are looking to trade for....i mean, Salmons was a low first round pick himself.

what i think would be important is what the scouts that are surely going to these D-League games think of them.

[ssspence]

ask a gm or another teams fan and they would go "gabe who? oh that kid that doesn't get to play in boston? uh, i dunno, either or i guess"

i get your point but you're exaggerating. it's a GM's job to know about other teams talent, and Pruitt is a talented, young, good kid sitting on a championship team (hopefully not for long) -- he could certainly be getting burn in the SAC pg 'rotation'. GMs also know that Ainge is an excellent judge of talent, as exemplified by his many late picks playing in the league today. you think Geoff Petrie doesn't know who Pruitt is? Or Billy Walker? He may not like then, he may prefer Redick, but his team did lose to the Cs by like 50 the other night, so nobody's perfect...

[celticmaestro]

Point is we could put together a combo of some interest.

No, we can't.

Ditto.

[Chris]

I am confused why anyone is arguing about the value of Pruitt or Reddick.  Neither of them have much value at all.  They are both throw-ins at best in any deal, especially for a player like Salmons.

Lets face it, the Kings are not motivated to sell Salmons, who is currently on a very affordable contract for his production.  He is available, just like just about anyone on their roster other than probably Martin, Hawes, and Thompson.  But teams are going to need to pay a premium for a guy like Salmons.  Its probably going to take at the very least a good draft pick, and maybe even more than that.

My guess is they will be using Salmons to try to get rid of Brad Miller's contract.  That likely puts Orlando (deal based around Turkoglu...who they reportedly want back, and Battie) and Cleveland at the head of the line.

[winsomme]

I am confused why anyone is arguing about the value of Pruitt or Reddick.  Neither of them have much value at all.  They are both throw-ins at best in any deal, especially for a player like Salmons.

Lets face it, the Kings are not motivated to sell Salmons, who is currently on a very affordable contract for his production.  He is available, just like just about anyone on their roster other than probably Martin, Hawes, and Thompson.  But teams are going to need to pay a premium for a guy like Salmons.  Its probably going to take at the very least a good draft pick, and maybe even more than that.

My guess is they will be using Salmons to try to get rid of Brad Miller's contract.  That likely puts Orlando (deal based around Turkoglu...who they reportedly want back, and Battie) and Cleveland at the head of the line.

Chris, it's possible that SAC is only trading Salmons to get rid of Miller's contract, but that's not the thrust of the report anyway...

but  for the sake of debate, what exactly is CLE offering for Miller and Salmons?

and i personally don't see ORL trading Turk and Battie for that pair....Turk is  the best player in that deal and i don't see how that deal makes them a better team.

why would they make such a big trade when they have the 4th best record in the league?

[ssspence]

i don't buy the idea that ORL will trade Turk under any (realistic) circumstances. yes, they're worried about the cost of resigning him, but he's said to love the area, and has mentioned he'd take less to stay there. he's the perfect compliment to howard, and better than lewis. he's staying.

[Andy Jick]

I think we should trade for Salmons just to hear Tony Allen try to say his last name...

[cordobes]

What am I missing?  Salmons seems like the posterchild case of a person putting up big numbers for a bad team.  Good enough to start on which 25 other teams?  He's a career backup.

You're probably missing the aphorism which says that "a basketball career is a marathon, not a sprint". Salmons has been improving his game a lot every season. He's a very good defender and an efficient  scorer, albeit limited on his offensive arsenal.
 

The fact that their best player plays the same position makes Salmons tradable. 

How come? There are two places at the wings, no? In fact, Kevin Martin and Salmons complement each other very well. I agree he's tradeable though.

I somewhat with you on this.  Clearly his stats are greatly exagerated because of the team he is playing on.  He is kind of like Tony Allen right before his knee injury.  When you are given the green light, a lot of guys can put up good numbers in the NBA.

If they can, why don't they? Salmons was putting big numbers last year as well, even playing alongside Martin or Artest. What's exactly the difference between Sjax numbers from last season and SJax numbers from this season?

John Salmons is shooting a career high .581 TS%, a career high .534 eFG% and a career low 12.0 TOV%. He's shooting more than ever, more efficiently than ever and turning over the ball less than ever. The fact that he's now the 1st offensive option of his team only makes this even more impressive.

the reason to trade Salmons is that big contract that he got.

He's very underpaid. One of the bests contract in the league. That's why they can ask for him a lot more than what the C's have to offer.

[winsomme]

the reason to trade Salmons is that big contract that he got.

He's very underpaid. One of the bests contract in the league. That's why they can ask for him a lot more than what the C's have to offer.

yeah, for some reason i thought he had a longer deal for more money.  i agree that his contract is reasonable.

but who are the teams that would really be looking to get him and what would the offers be?

[cordobes]

Well, first of all, they don't need to trade him. He's a good player on a small contract.

However, his older than their core, so they probably will want to sell him high. The first option is certainly package him with Miller or Kenny Thomas.

If they trade him alone, I think it will take an expiring/solid role-player/1st round pick or promising youngster to get him.

The Raptors are a team that would love to have him. They'd probably offer a combination of Parker/Kapono/Moon/Graham + Bargs + lottery protected draft pick.

Cleveland could put up some good offers. Pavlovic+Snow+Gibson/draft pick for Salmons+Kenny Thomas?

Orlando could offer Bogans+Cook+pick. The Spurs could use him as well. Are they ready to trade Splitter's rights?

I don't know what's going to take, but I'm absolutely sure a 2nd round pick like Walker and Tony Allen won't do it.

[winsomme]

Well, first of all, they don't need to trade him. It's a good player on a small contract.

Then, they can package him with Miller or Kenny Thomas.

If they trade him alone, I think it will take an expiring/solid role-player/1st round pick or promising youngster to get him.

The Raptors are a team that would love to have him. They'd probably offer a combination of Parker/Kapono/Moon/Graham + Bargs + lottery protected draft pick.

Cleveland could put up some good offers. Pavlovic+Snow+Gibson/draft pick for Salmons+Kenny Thomas?

Orlando could offer Bogans+Cook+pick. The Spurs could use him as well. Are they ready to trade Splitter's rights?

I don't know what's going to take, but I'm absolutely sure a 2nd round pick like Walker and Tony Allen won't do it.

maybe it's just me, but none of those packages are very appealing....Bogans + Cook...i mean why not just keep Salmons...same with Pavlovic + Gibosn.....and would CLE really want Kenny Thomas with Hickson on deck?

i have a hard time believing that TOR would trade Bargnani to get Salmons....

i agree that SAC would want prospects + picks, but i really don't see how the packages you are offering here are clearly better than Walker/Giddens + pick + salary/BBD.

i don't see how Moon and Graham are far more enticing than Walker and Giddens.

on Walker, the biggest reason that he slipped into the second round was his knee. BFB reported that the knee is fine.

i hear what you are saying. our packages aren't all that enticing either, but i just don't think it is all that clear cut.

who knows...maybe SAC actually likes one of our guys.