Author Topic: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed  (Read 56721 times)

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Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2008, 03:56:49 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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No matter how hard a person tries to create a superstar, there are very few of them.
Tony Allen will never be a superstar.  Brian Scalabrine will never be a superstar.

All of the analysts in this blog are trying to create a superstar out of a role player.  Anything less, in the minds of these analysts, makes the player useless.  The Lakers of the "fo futa hallafamahs" of yesteryear shows us that the Tony Allens are as key to a team as the superstars are.

Tony is a critical role player to a championship team.  He must be doing something right.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2008, 04:27:48 PM »

Offline ssspence

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Chuckle. Tony is what he is, a role player with significant limitations, and to try to talk him into stardom just doesn't work.

Excellent thoughts and TPs for both of you.

I agree with the tone of your post, but I just have one quibble.  I think Tony's problem actually is that he absolutely is NOT a role-player, and that is what he needs to be. 

Tony's only success (and I use that term very loosely) has been when he has been allowed to be the "star", and basically go out there and play streetball without a conscience.  He can't tone it down and be productive, because unless he is jacking up shots, and getting lots of touches, he loses his concentration.

I have been saying since last season, and I still believe it, that some lottery team would be very smart to trade for Tony Allen.  He won't win them many games, but he will put up big-time numbers, and make some highlight reels, and make a GM look like a genius for a couple of years for finding a "diamond in the rough".



Absolutely agree. I proposed here previously this trade with Memphis (or some variation of this trade), which I think makes sense for both teams.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2188~2794~2367~3200&teams=2~2~29~29&te=&cash=

While Warrick isn't a shooter, he'd be an effective 2nd unit scorer, and Ross can hold down the fort defensively off the bench at the 2 until Giddens potentially can show something next year.

Toss Tony out there with Mayo in the back court and bring Lowry off the bench. Then trade Conley to the Blazers for Outlaw or Webster or whatever.

Maybe this trade works or doesn't work but the point is the one you make above. Another idea: Chicago. They'll be losing Gordon soon and Hughes is trade bait over the summer for a team looking to clear cap space for the summer of 2010 free agent class. Nocioni would be great for the Cs off the bench, and is redundant behind Deng. Another plus -- his salary actually goes down thru the course of his deal (see below):

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/bulls.jsp


Mike

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Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2008, 04:40:27 PM »

Offline wahz

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Guys, if Danny loves Tony so much why is he drafting giddens and walker?? and we all saw that doc didn't want to use him in the playoffs. I don't think he/they love him too much to not trade him. get rid of him and lets hope to get a smith and a guy who can stretch the defense off the bench. 

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2008, 04:46:51 PM »

Offline RAcker

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In a somewhat reactive response to earlier TA to Pose comparisons, lets face something very clear and true about both.  They are both not particularly good ballhandlers and this is an understatement.  However, the difference is, Posey new it and Tony does not.

Knowing your limitations will take you just as far in this sport as knowing your strengths.  Someone brought up Larry Bird earlier and his high bball IQ and lack of athleticism.  Well, Larry understood what he was and how to maximize what God gave him.  Ask anyone that had the misfortune of guarding Larry when he started to assert himself one-on-one in a game.  He had a multitude of ways to get himself where he wanted to go with or without the ball in his hands and there was nothing you could do about it because he was one step ahead of you 99% of the time.

TA does not have this skill and neither does most of the players in the league. He needs to understand what his strengths and weaknesses are and play "his" game.  The coaching staff can almost forget "trying new things" with him at this point.  He is hard wired and really can only be used in certain ways.  The cringing we all do when we watch him comes when he takes one step outside of his box.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2008, 05:02:08 PM »

Offline Chris

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Guys, if Danny loves Tony so much why is he drafting giddens and walker?? and we all saw that doc didn't want to use him in the playoffs. I don't think he/they love him too much to not trade him. get rid of him and lets hope to get a smith and a guy who can stretch the defense off the bench. 

Not to mention, they did not give him a qualifying offer last year, and were ready to walk away from him if they signed Posey.  The reason they signed him was that there was not a big difference between him and the other options available after Posey signed, and since they had Bird Rights on him, it made much more sense to sign Allen than use some of their MLE on a guy who they weren't all that sold on, and instead are able to save it to be able to try to outbid other teams on players getting bought out.

Tony Allen is absolutely tradable, as is anyone else on the team other than the starters (and Danny may even listen on them...but he would have to be blown away).


Maybe this trade works or doesn't work but the point is the one you make above. Another idea: Chicago. They'll be losing Gordon soon and Hughes is trade bait over the summer for a team looking to clear cap space for the summer of 2010 free agent class. Nocioni would be great for the Cs off the bench, and is redundant behind Deng. Another plus -- his salary actually goes down thru the course of his deal (see below):

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/bulls.jsp




This is an interesting thought.  I have always been a big Nocioni fan, and think he would be perfect for this team.  I have my doubts whether Chicago would be interested in Tony (I think they may be trying to get away from guys with questionable character...and Tony's past is not exactly clean), but if they would be interested in him, and looking to dump Nocioni's deal, I wonder if they would consider something like Tony, House, and Scal (plus a second round pick and $3 million cash to pay for Scal next year) for Nocioni and Aaron Gray.  That would really solidify our frontcourt, and we could either activate Cassell, or go after a guy like Marbury. 

I know its a fantasy, but I would feel much more comfortable going into the playoffs with a roster like this:

Rondo, Marbury, Cassell
Allen, Pruitt, Giddens
Pierce, Nocioni, Walker
Garnett, Powe, Davis
Perkins, Gray, Davis

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2008, 05:09:52 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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I look at this Marbury thing and Rivers' sterling success with flakes and boneheads and wonder if the Celtics fan who would want Marbury in Celtics' Green is on ritalin or something more potent.

If Garnett was this great influence with boneheads and flakes that people in this blog think he'd be with Marbury, the trade for Blount and Ricky would have made Minny title contenders.  Clearly, from a talent standpoint, Minny was a huge winner in that trade.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2008, 05:23:38 PM »

Offline ssspence

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Guys, if Danny loves Tony so much why is he drafting giddens and walker?? and we all saw that doc didn't want to use him in the playoffs. I don't think he/they love him too much to not trade him. get rid of him and lets hope to get a smith and a guy who can stretch the defense off the bench. 

Not to mention, they did not give him a qualifying offer last year, and were ready to walk away from him if they signed Posey.  The reason they signed him was that there was not a big difference between him and the other options available after Posey signed, and since they had Bird Rights on him, it made much more sense to sign Allen than use some of their MLE on a guy who they weren't all that sold on, and instead are able to save it to be able to try to outbid other teams on players getting bought out.

Tony Allen is absolutely tradable, as is anyone else on the team other than the starters (and Danny may even listen on them...but he would have to be blown away).


Maybe this trade works or doesn't work but the point is the one you make above. Another idea: Chicago. They'll be losing Gordon soon and Hughes is trade bait over the summer for a team looking to clear cap space for the summer of 2010 free agent class. Nocioni would be great for the Cs off the bench, and is redundant behind Deng. Another plus -- his salary actually goes down thru the course of his deal (see below):

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/bulls.jsp




This is an interesting thought.  I have always been a big Nocioni fan, and think he would be perfect for this team.  I have my doubts whether Chicago would be interested in Tony (I think they may be trying to get away from guys with questionable character...and Tony's past is not exactly clean), but if they would be interested in him, and looking to dump Nocioni's deal, I wonder if they would consider something like Tony, House, and Scal (plus a second round pick and $3 million cash to pay for Scal next year) for Nocioni and Aaron Gray.  That would really solidify our frontcourt, and we could either activate Cassell, or go after a guy like Marbury. 

I know its a fantasy, but I would feel much more comfortable going into the playoffs with a roster like this:

Rondo, Marbury, Cassell
Allen, Pruitt, Giddens
Pierce, Nocioni, Walker
Garnett, Powe, Davis
Perkins, Gray, Davis

I tried the following when I was looking at the Chicago scenario-- note Powe IS NOT included in this, ESPN just has Cassell "trade restricted" -- he's tradable tomorrow, with his consent -- and since they make the same, i plugged Leon in instead of Cassell.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2367~3200~3019~3023~1021~2456~3414&teams=4~4~4~4~4~2~2&te=&cash=

It'd be Cassell, Tony, Scal and Baby for Nocioni and the rights to Omer Asik (who by Euro accounts can play). If you could put Paddy O in for Baby, you do it, but the Cs aren't going to pay both Leon and Baby this offseason anyway.

Makes sense for both teams, no? Chicago doesn't need Noce and will free up space to sign their youngsters or others in the desirable class of 2010. And he'd fit right in with the hardnosed mindset of the Cs. KG would love him.
Mike

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Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2008, 05:29:07 PM »

Offline housecall

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Personally speaking,i never expected TA to replace Posey.
I did expect Danny and owners to do what he promised,"replace Posey by committee"...still waiting on the committee Danny.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2008, 05:29:47 PM »

Offline Chris

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Guys, if Danny loves Tony so much why is he drafting giddens and walker?? and we all saw that doc didn't want to use him in the playoffs. I don't think he/they love him too much to not trade him. get rid of him and lets hope to get a smith and a guy who can stretch the defense off the bench. 

Not to mention, they did not give him a qualifying offer last year, and were ready to walk away from him if they signed Posey.  The reason they signed him was that there was not a big difference between him and the other options available after Posey signed, and since they had Bird Rights on him, it made much more sense to sign Allen than use some of their MLE on a guy who they weren't all that sold on, and instead are able to save it to be able to try to outbid other teams on players getting bought out.

Tony Allen is absolutely tradable, as is anyone else on the team other than the starters (and Danny may even listen on them...but he would have to be blown away).


Maybe this trade works or doesn't work but the point is the one you make above. Another idea: Chicago. They'll be losing Gordon soon and Hughes is trade bait over the summer for a team looking to clear cap space for the summer of 2010 free agent class. Nocioni would be great for the Cs off the bench, and is redundant behind Deng. Another plus -- his salary actually goes down thru the course of his deal (see below):

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/bulls.jsp




This is an interesting thought.  I have always been a big Nocioni fan, and think he would be perfect for this team.  I have my doubts whether Chicago would be interested in Tony (I think they may be trying to get away from guys with questionable character...and Tony's past is not exactly clean), but if they would be interested in him, and looking to dump Nocioni's deal, I wonder if they would consider something like Tony, House, and Scal (plus a second round pick and $3 million cash to pay for Scal next year) for Nocioni and Aaron Gray.  That would really solidify our frontcourt, and we could either activate Cassell, or go after a guy like Marbury. 

I know its a fantasy, but I would feel much more comfortable going into the playoffs with a roster like this:

Rondo, Marbury, Cassell
Allen, Pruitt, Giddens
Pierce, Nocioni, Walker
Garnett, Powe, Davis
Perkins, Gray, Davis

I tried the following when I was looking at the Chicago scenario-- note Powe IS NOT included in this, ESPN just has Cassell "trade restricted" -- he's tradable tomorrow, with his consent -- and since they make the same, i plugged Leon in instead of Cassell.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2367~3200~3019~3023~1021~2456~3414&teams=4~4~4~4~4~2~2&te=&cash=

It'd be Cassell, Tony, Scal and Baby for Nocioni and the rights to Omer Asik (who by Euro accounts can play). If you could put Paddy O in for Baby, you do it, but the Cs aren't going to pay both Leon and Baby this offseason anyway.

Makes sense for both teams, no? Chicago doesn't need Noce and will free up space to sign their youngsters or others in the desirable class of 2010. And he'd fit right in with the hardnosed mindset of the Cs. KG would love him.


If you can get them to throw in Gray, or have a big man ready to come in, then it works, otherwise, giving away both Davis and Scal hurts our depth up front too much.  POB is a wasted roster spot this season, so it would leave us with just Garnett, Perkins and Powe up front (Nocioni would have to play mostly on the wing).


Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2008, 05:31:20 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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Personally speaking,i never expected TA to replace Posey.
I did expect Danny and owners to do what he promised,"replace Posey by committee"...still waiting on the committee Danny.

tp, im right there with u

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2008, 05:32:38 PM »

Offline wahz

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i agree and there just is no need to get starbury. ta, scal and whatever else we need to get a guy like nocioni and also add smith is enough. we don't need top add 3 guys and its not realistic enough anyway.

the big problem is having to trade for smith instead of just signing a free agent like deke, right?

what i am asking is if we just sign say alonzo as a fa, this frees us up to make a trade with ta, scal and all(oblount?, cash, picks, young guys) to get a quality guy like nocioni or something better, right?

active roster:
perk, alonzo, Powe
kg, baby
pp, nocioni, giddens
ray, house
Rajon, Pruitt
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 05:42:36 PM by wahz »

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2008, 05:35:47 PM »

Offline housecall

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Personally speaking,i never expected TA to replace Posey.
I did expect Danny and owners to do what he promised,"replace Posey by committee"...still waiting on the committee Danny.

tp, im right there with u
thanks Dark_lord...well thats what keeps coming back to mind,in every one of Danny press conferences prior to the season when asked that question referring to the lost of Posey,he always said they will make adjustments by committee .back at you w/the TP

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2008, 05:47:46 PM »

Offline wahz

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And let me add that this all makes my head hurt. We should have just signed posey. at the end of the day, it is looking quite possible that we will spend nearly as much and maybe even more money by trying to fill these gaps. Was it really worth the risk? pose is shooting around 47% from the 3 line last i looked

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2008, 05:51:22 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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Personally speaking,i never expected TA to replace Posey.
I did expect Danny and owners to do what he promised,"replace Posey by committee"...still waiting on the committee Danny.

 ;D ;D ;D Seriously, folks.  I must be missing the part where we were undefeated with James Posey on our roster.

We're 27-4, for God's sakes.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2008, 05:57:03 PM »

Offline ssspence

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Guys, if Danny loves Tony so much why is he drafting giddens and walker?? and we all saw that doc didn't want to use him in the playoffs. I don't think he/they love him too much to not trade him. get rid of him and lets hope to get a smith and a guy who can stretch the defense off the bench. 

Not to mention, they did not give him a qualifying offer last year, and were ready to walk away from him if they signed Posey.  The reason they signed him was that there was not a big difference between him and the other options available after Posey signed, and since they had Bird Rights on him, it made much more sense to sign Allen than use some of their MLE on a guy who they weren't all that sold on, and instead are able to save it to be able to try to outbid other teams on players getting bought out.

Tony Allen is absolutely tradable, as is anyone else on the team other than the starters (and Danny may even listen on them...but he would have to be blown away).


Maybe this trade works or doesn't work but the point is the one you make above. Another idea: Chicago. They'll be losing Gordon soon and Hughes is trade bait over the summer for a team looking to clear cap space for the summer of 2010 free agent class. Nocioni would be great for the Cs off the bench, and is redundant behind Deng. Another plus -- his salary actually goes down thru the course of his deal (see below):

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/bulls.jsp




This is an interesting thought.  I have always been a big Nocioni fan, and think he would be perfect for this team.  I have my doubts whether Chicago would be interested in Tony (I think they may be trying to get away from guys with questionable character...and Tony's past is not exactly clean), but if they would be interested in him, and looking to dump Nocioni's deal, I wonder if they would consider something like Tony, House, and Scal (plus a second round pick and $3 million cash to pay for Scal next year) for Nocioni and Aaron Gray.  That would really solidify our frontcourt, and we could either activate Cassell, or go after a guy like Marbury. 

I know its a fantasy, but I would feel much more comfortable going into the playoffs with a roster like this:

Rondo, Marbury, Cassell
Allen, Pruitt, Giddens
Pierce, Nocioni, Walker
Garnett, Powe, Davis
Perkins, Gray, Davis

I tried the following when I was looking at the Chicago scenario-- note Powe IS NOT included in this, ESPN just has Cassell "trade restricted" -- he's tradable tomorrow, with his consent -- and since they make the same, i plugged Leon in instead of Cassell.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2367~3200~3019~3023~1021~2456~3414&teams=4~4~4~4~4~2~2&te=&cash=

It'd be Cassell, Tony, Scal and Baby for Nocioni and the rights to Omer Asik (who by Euro accounts can play). If you could put Paddy O in for Baby, you do it, but the Cs aren't going to pay both Leon and Baby this offseason anyway.

Makes sense for both teams, no? Chicago doesn't need Noce and will free up space to sign their youngsters or others in the desirable class of 2010. And he'd fit right in with the hardnosed mindset of the Cs. KG would love him.


If you can get them to throw in Gray, or have a big man ready to come in, then it works, otherwise, giving away both Davis and Scal hurts our depth up front too much.  POB is a wasted roster spot this season, so it would leave us with just Garnett, Perkins and Powe up front (Nocioni would have to play mostly on the wing).



I wouldn't let Gray get in the way of this deal. What's the difference between Gray and just playing POB? In either case you need to sign a vet...

Anyway we're splitting hairs. Point is the guy would be the a great fit as a 6th man. BUT, it just goes to show we should have signed Posey if were here now -- tho Noce can get his own shot, and right now that's an issue for the 2nd unit.


Mike

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